The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Arturito_Burrito]

I went ahead and edited my above post because I realized what you ment.

your second response doesn't actually make a point because there is no way around MK your always at a Disadvantage Unless you do a ditto.

 

[Vayseth]

I think a lot of you are getting hung up on this idea that banning metaknight is a bad idea because we didn't ban the top tier characters in melee. The difference is, if you take out metaknight, this is actually a really balanced game. If you took out fox, you still had other broken characters that owned the whole cast. In this game, if you take out metaknight, you have good counters for every member of the cast.

 

[DRaGZ]

I think a lot of you are getting hung up on this idea that banning metaknight is a bad idea because we didn't ban the top tier characters in melee. The difference is, if you take out metaknight, this is actually a really balanced game. If you took out fox, you still had other broken characters that owned the whole cast. In this game, if you take out metaknight, you have good counters for every member of the cast.

Those characters weren't really broken considering that they had very legitimate counters. Every character did.

Meta Knight does not. He breaks the system of counterpicking because there is no one to counterpick against him except another Meta Knight.

 

[Red Exodus]

Super Smash Bros. Brawl - Counter Pickan Game.

 

[Kel]

The Fox melee analogy doesn't actually work it's been said before. To put it simple it goes like this.

Fox > melee cast
MK>>brawl cast

As to how effective they are not the match ups.

I also doubt anyone in here just wants MK banned because there friend beat there snake with MK.

and Last thing. would you find 7 hours of MK dittos fun at every tournament you go to? If not then you shouldn't say "if everyone switches to MK who cares".

My fox analogy is simply talking about the PERCENTAGE of fox users in the tournament scene and how they are comparable to MK's popularity in Brawl today. It doesn't matter if tournament matches are boring, it matters if they're competitive or not. A lot of people don't watch Brawl finals because they're boring (yes without MK too)

The comparison is faulty. Fox had neutral matchups, and Fox could be gimped.

My fox analogy is simply talking about the PERCENTAGE of fox users in the tournament scene and how they are comparable to MK's popularity in Brawl today. MK has "neutral matchups". and Matchups are just opinion based anyway. You can gimp MK, it's done many times in tournaments, it's just done in different ways than in Melee.

That is an unfair comparason completely. As it has been stated numerous times before fox is not like MK. Fox is gimpable. Fox is chain grabbable by multiple characters (marth 0-death, peach, luigi, fox DK etc). Fox is wrecked in combos (peach, marth 0-death once again, falco 0-70, dk 0-death). And I won't forget to mention that ANY approach in melee is completely counterable with dash dancing and proper spacing.
How does MK in brawl compare to this? OOOOOOh are you going do dash dance and counter MK's approach? YOU CANT. Are you going to out smart a well-spaced sh fair from MK? Good luck because you CANT >.> You can't do **** about the majority of MK's attacks, he doesn't have weaknesses, only strengths. He's at an advantage no matter what part of the stage he is on, he is ungimpable. He's uncounterpickable.

My fox analogy is simply talking about the PERCENTAGE of fox users in the tournament scene and how they are comparable to MK's popularity in Brawl today.

Marth didn't have 0-death combos. He had 0-65% (approx.) combos on fox. Death only occured when the Marth called Fox on a certain DI or caught him out of a jump. This is of course assuming that the stage is FD, which is the only place your theory combo works how you explained it, in which case it's the fox's fault for not banning FD because Fox doesn't have any bad stages in melee.
But since we're talking about neutrality in smash; Fox could take Marth 0-55% off of one grab too. grab-uthrow, Uair, uair, uair is guaranteed if the fox doesn't mess up. And from there, all Fox has to do is catch you out of a jump as you're descending, or laser camp some damage until another Uthrow Uair. Oh, and fox's works on every stage, not just FD. Ask M2K if you don't believe me.

Meta Knight is not just too good. He's broken. His lack of lag at all is just something that really pretty much breaks the game. You can train against him all you want but really you're not going to have any opening to attack him at all.

He is beaten by other characters constantly. He isn't broken if he loses. Learn how to get inside the MK. That's where mindgames come into play. You can't just openly attack a MK and expect not to get punished for it.

More accurately, Meta Knight's userbase is expanding at an exponential rate, so every other character is getting less playtime / less development, when they are already being beaten most of the time by MK.

As Burrito said, Meta Knight is incomparable to Fox, perhaps due to the slower gameplay of Brawl. At the highest level of play, Meta Knight is unbeatable, unless by a fluke.

Good luck to you. No breakthroughs with Meta Knight have occured over the seven months that Brawl has been out, optimistic posters on these boards are even showing some doubt that his position in god tier will ever deteriorate.

Precisely; fun. That is exactly why Meta Knight is almost impeached... he detracts from the fun of the game, because he is broken. No one else is as good as him or has as good match-ups, so he absorbs a lot of the game as a permitted character. MK dittos are not fun, to watch or play, in my opinion. Mainly, though, without him, the meta-game would open up incredibly.

MK is getting more players because he's a good character and people are seeing how he can be used effectively, much like how people flocked to Marth when M2K picked him up, or Falco after Bombsoldier
My fox analogy is simply talking about the PERCENTAGE of fox users in the tournament scene and how they are comparable to MK's popularity in Brawl today.

Actually, Snake was considered the best character in the game until June or something. We learned things about Snake from March-June until we realized that MK was better. Who's to say we won't figure out someone else that's more effective soon? It's all opinion biases.

Once again, Fun is NOT the main event of a smash tournament. You're at a TOURNAMENT, not a smashfest. If you just want to have fun and ignore the competitive aspect, go to fests and have fun.

Wow and you're a SBRer? Your logic fails on so many levels and you contradict yourself (read your own post carefully).

There's too many things wrong in your argument for me to prove invalid in the few minutes I have right now, so let me know if you want a full analysis on why you're horribly horribly wrong and I'll elaborate later.

Yeah, it's too bad we don't have JunkintheTrunk, who joined earlier this year, in the BR. With a name like that, how can you go wrong?

because if you ban him, his weakness wont be found, therefore ban forever

Yes


Oh, and Infernangelis is an Ike main and doesn't want MK banned. LOL

 

[Infinitysmash]

This thread is full of people whining in one direction or another, then it has Overswarm in it.

If you want at least 2 reasons why Metaknight should NOT be banned then look at the results for Hobo 10. The top 2 players? Olimar and Falco mains. One of the best Metaknights (Dojo) got third to an Olimar and a Falco.

Edit - In fact, let's take a look at the top three from every Hobo tournament.

HOBO 1 (Play N Trade)
(4/5/08)

1: T-Rex (snake/wario)
2: Mr.3000 (sonic/dedede)
3: DrMarioKart (metanight)

HOBO 2 (U of H Trash day)
4/12/08

1.T-Rex (snake)
2.Jara64 (metaknight/IC)
3.Roy_R (marth)

HOBO 3 (U of H Brawl Bash)
4/26/08

1: Sethlon ( Falco)
2: Stiltz (olimar/metaknight)
3: Mr.3000 (sonic/dedede)

HOBO 4 (Planet Zero brawl)
5/3/08

1: Hylian (G&W/IC)
2: Sethlon (Falco)
3: Stiltz (olimar/Metaknight)

Hobo 5 (Planet Zero brawl)
6/7/08

1: Sethlon (Falco)
2: Stiltkskin (Metaknight/Olimar)
3: Roy R (marth)

HOBO 6 (Fight Night in Beaumont)
6/14/08

1: Royr (Marth)
2: Stiltz (Metaknight/Olimar)
3: Hylian (IC/GW)

HOBO 7 (play N trade brawl 2)
6/21/08

1: RoyR (marth)
2: Sethlon (falco)
3: Stiltz (olimar/metaknight)

HOBO 8 (planet zero brawl)
7/26/08

1: T-rex (Snake)
2: Dr Mario Kart (metaknight)
3: Mr.3000 (sonic)


HOBO 9 (play n trade 3)
8/2/08

1: T-rex (snake)
2: Sethlon (falco)
3: Stiltz (olimar/meta)

HOBO 10 (planet zero brawl)
9/6/08

1: Stiltz (olimar/meta)
2: D4bA (meta/snake)
3: Dojo (Meta)

HOBO 11 (planet zero brawl)
10/4/08

1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)

Metaknight has only won one of these (technically 2, sort of). He is, however, in the top 3 of every single Hobo. You will, however, note that the Metaknight players are the same few with one exception. The Metaknight "dominance" is only recent in the major Texas tournaments. In fact, one of the tournaments (which I can't find the results for, ironically) that had a major impact on our initial power rankings list had NO METAKNIGHT PLAYERS IN THE TOP 3.

Facts instead of speculation, people. I'll put together more later.

 

[Ken Neth]

Quoted Ken Neth:

"No one should be able to beat the top in state with a character they have only been using for the past two days, let alone two stock him, myself included."

Im sure this Sonic player could **** a 2 day old Snake player

he could, this is trufax

He really could **** any other character besides Meta after only two days of playing. Heck, he still beats my snake a lot and I've been using him since brawl came out. Then after two days of using Meta I work him harder than I've ever beaten him with snake. And my Meta isn't even that good.

 

[salaboB]

Actually, Snake was considered the best character in the game until June or something. We learned things about Snake from March-June until we realized that MK was better. Who's to say we won't figure out someone else that's more effective soon? It's all opinion biases.

July, August, November, now we're in October.

How much longer do we need before you'll accept we won't find someone more effective than MK, at this point? Remember, *everyone* has been working on ways to take this guy out and coming up pretty much empty.

 

[Kel]

I think a lot of you are getting hung up on this idea that banning metaknight is a bad idea because we didn't ban the top tier characters in melee. The difference is, if you take out metaknight, this is actually a really balanced game. If you took out fox, you still had other broken characters that owned the whole cast. In this game, if you take out metaknight, you have good counters for every member of the cast.

"balance" is only an opinion. Match up charts are created arbitrarily based on opinions. Some people thought Sheik didn't counter Marth in Melee, and some thought it was 65-45. Opinion is what you're basing "a balanced game" on. GAW, Snake and other top tiers will still **** face without MK.
Having "counters" does not make a game balanced.

 

[Vulcan55]

The bright side is, if everyone really switches to MK out of popularity, you only have to practice one match-up.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

stuff about %

that was actually brought to my attention and it only makes it worse.

No one here is asking MK to be banned because he is popular. Ike is popular do people want him banned?

Also like I've said before if tournaments stop being fun all together then people stop going to them and you end up with at most 20 people for a large tournament who go to win money.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Kel's percentage thing.

WTF are you talking about? Fox was not nearly as popular as Metaknight. What about Marth, Shiek, and Captain Falcon, who were almost equally as popular (Shiek moreso than the other two, but you get the point).

Also, Fox's upthrow to uair doesn't work if you SDI the first hit of the uair. And also uair->uair->uair doesn't work if you DI one uair one way and the next the opposite way. Seriously, do you even olay melee? Also, Fox is definately not great on every stage. If the Fox bans FD, then take them to brinstar and watch the Acid **** their ***.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i just have to lol @ the continual misinformation that keeps getting put out about soul calibur 2

also:

"balance" is only an opinion. Match up charts are created arbitrarily based on opinions. Some people thought Sheik didn't counter Marth in Melee, and some thought it was 65-45. Opinion is what you're basing "a balanced game" on. GAW, Snake and other top tiers will still **** face without MK.
Having "counters" does not make a game balanced.

it has been pretty well established that characters like dedede and snake have been performing so well because mk has been taking out their counters in earlier matches.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it wont make it completely balenced but it will make it more balenced than jsut being centralised on 1 character

 

[Praxis]

I'm not sure what sirlin-purism is I'm thinking its a person but idk. Anyways I actually don't mind this thought of playing for fun = scrub. I'll even agree to it because all it means is that M2K, Azen, DSF, RoyR, Dojo, and any other pro you can think of need scrubs. With out scrubs it will be a handful of people playing to win that end up winning a pathetic 50$ 1st place pot.

edit:I think I've heard Azen said he plays for fun before or at least that he plays the same in friendlies than in tournament matches.

Dunno about Azen (I can believe it), but Edrees is in the "plays for fun" camp too.

This is what I'm talking about when I mention Sirlin:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

 

[da K.I.D.]

and dont put up 1 tourney series' results as some kind of end alll be all, because i (and im pretty sure 4-5 other people) could come in here and post their tourney results and it would show complete meta domination
for example: my last tourney, 5 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 8 were MK players and i think 2-3 of the top 3 finishers in my tourney for about 4-5 monts now.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Not only what Da kid said is true but MK hasn't been dominating since brawl came out it started recently when they began to learn match ups better. You can look at hobo 11 for the best example 8 of the top 10 are MKs 4 of the top 5 and all 3 who won money used MK.

 

[Daimonster]

^^ Yup, Ankoku's list makes sure proof of that theory.

 

[St. Viers]

oh, with the hobo results, notice that it's the most recent 2 that were dominated by MK (if someone goes MK in the finals just to win, that's telling).

I personally think that although right now it is too early to ban MK, given the level of the throngs playing him, soon even lower level MKs will know how to counter the others good chars: Hylian revealed that M2K has figured out how to **** G&W, who was a popular anti-MK toon, from what I gather.

Surely chars like snake and DDD, who have even less abilty to safely space (G&W's B-air being one of the best spacing moves in the game, and completely owned by MK shuttle-loop) also will be picked apart and completely shut down.

When this happens, I'm sure that MK will be as broken as [insert the banned char from another game here], and banned. It's just a matter of time.

For the record, I don't even play brawl or use MK (I'm a G&W on the occasions I play), but simply from reading the boards here I ***** ppl with MK the last time I played brawl >_>.

 

[Master Knight DH]

"balance" is only an opinion. Match up charts are created arbitrarily based on opinions. Some people thought Sheik didn't counter Marth in Melee, and some thought it was 65-45. Opinion is what you're basing "a balanced game" on. GAW, Snake and other top tiers will still **** face without MK.
Having "counters" does not make a game balanced.

I couldn't agree more with the part I bolded.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I think that having counters actually DOES make a balance.

A beats B, but B beats C, and C beats A.

Sounds balanced to me.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Yet not having them makes it unbalanced.

 

[salaboB]

I think that having counters actually DOES make a balance.

A beats B, but B beats C, and C beats A.

Sounds balanced to me.

Having counters makes variety, not necessarily balance.

But having balance doesn't ensure there will be any long lasting tournament scene. As we saw in Melee, having variety does.

 

[Vulcan55]

I think that having counters actually DOES make a balance.

A beats B, but B beats C, and C beats A.

Sounds balanced to me.

Brawl is not Rock-Paper-Scissors.

 

[Vayseth]

I think that having counters actually DOES make a balance.

A beats B, but B beats C, and C beats A.

Sounds balanced to me.

Nah, they have a point. I guess balance would mean that the low tiers have a chance against the high tiers, which for the most part, even without metaknight, that's not the game.

OH WAIT, I forgot we're playing smash. In the game, we focus on counterpicking, which means we can pick stages and other characters to overcome our problems in match ups.

Therefore, having bad match ups creates balance in THIS game.

Brawl is not Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Yes it is. DSF even tells people it boils down to RPS in every aspect of the game, and says he's better at it than other people.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not only what Da kid said is true but MK hasn't been dominating since brawl came out it started recently when they began to learn match ups better. You can look at hobo 11 for the best example 8 of the top 10 are MKs 4 of the top 5 and all 3 who won money used MK.

Didn't Azen only used MK in one set against Lee at Hobo 11, but still stuck to Lucario against everyone else?

 

[Dark Sonic]

He went MK against M2K too (though he said he did better with Lucario).

But ultimately, when it came to it, he switched to MK in order to win. He couldn't handle Lee's MK with Lucario, so when the chips were down he switched to MK. Sound familiar?

 

[da K.I.D.]

no he played peach in the earlier rounds and MK in the last two sets

 

[RadLink5]

I totally disagree with a ban. In fact I joined the forums just to post in this topic.

Meta Knight has good match-ups, that's not in question, but is he unbeatable? Not at all. He just has good match-ups. A lot of people supporting the ban have already openly admitted it's so their character can rise up the tier list.

Items have already been banned, a good deal of the stages have already been banned, now you're trying to ban a character. More and more elements of the game are being removed, and it's going to lead to people growing sick of the competitive scene and barely anyone showing up for tournaments with these rules.

But that's just my two cents.

 

[da K.I.D.]

and actually, most aspects of most fighting games boil down to RPS

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

So every character has to be equal for a game to be balanced?

Can't you just cut the extremes from the equation and just have high and top tiers so it's balanced?

The point is taking out MK will bring the game closer to a balance.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Didn't Azen only used MK in one set against Lee at Hobo 11, but still stuck to Lucario against everyone else?

You know how people say it doesn't count if you use ganon the 1st round against a scrub? Well its reversed. It counts even more if you use them towards the finals because if he didn't go MK he would have won a lot less money.

 

[salaboB]

Meta Knight has good match-ups, that's not in question, but is he unbeatable? Not at all. He just has good match-ups. A lot of people supporting the ban have already openly admitted it's so their character can rise up the tier list.

It doesn't matter if he's unbeatable or not if he's overcentralized the metagame and killing the competitive scene. That is what really needs to be decided.

Also, there has been pretty much no proof of damage done if he's banned, and a number of positives. So whether he *needs* it or not, you'll be hard pressed to say why it's a bad thing.

 

[Vulcan55]

Yes it is. DSF even tells people it boils down to RPS in every aspect of the game, and says he's better at it than other people.

That's different than what I was saying.

was talking about character match-ups.
I understand that playing the game boils down to RPS.
(Using SF as an example because Brawl's a bit different)
Very basically, you have the option to block an expected attack, attack against a slower attack/ throw, or throw an expected block/slower throw.

But character match-ups in Brawl are not RPS.

Spoiler

Plus sarcasm is lost over the internets

 

[RadLink5]

Can't you just cut the extremes from the equation and just have high and top tiers so it's balanced?

Logic like this is why the competitive scene is inevitably going to crash down on itself. "Balance" is going to mean nothing if everyone's lost interest because they can't play their favorite character.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I totally disagree with a ban. In fact I joined the forums just to post in this topic.

Meta Knight has good match-ups, that's not in question, but is he unbeatable? Not at all. He just has good match-ups. A lot of people supporting the ban have already openly admitted it's so their character can rise up the tier list.

Items have already been banned, a good deal of the stages have already been banned, now you're trying to ban a character. More and more elements of the game are being removed, and it's going to lead to people growing sick of the competitive scene and barely anyone showing up for tournaments with these rules.

But that's just my two cents.

WTF?!?!?

GTFO with that BS

who the hell has ever said that, nobody cares about their characters spot on the tier list. we just want our characters... as a matter of fact, any character other than mk to be playable at tourneys.

and for the record, we ban things so that we can see who the best at the game is, you cant do stuff like that when random crap is blowing up all over teh place, or when other things are otherwise impeding the process of figuring out who the best player is(overpowered characters)

 

[salaboB]

Logic like this is why the competitive scene is inevitably going to crash down on itself. "Balance" is going to mean nothing if everyone's lost interest because they can't play their favorite character.

Most people already can't because MK crushes them.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Logic like this is why the competitive scene is inevitably going to crash down on itself. "Balance" is going to mean nothing if everyone's lost interest because they can't play their favorite character.

tons of people are losing interest as it is right now because the inclusion of Mk disallows them to play their favorite character (perfect example: me and sonic)

EDIT salabob stop getting to things b4 me lol

 

[CR4SH]

Most people already can't because MK crushes them.

QFT

Shoryuken? T.T

 

[Turbo Ether]

Logic like this is why the competitive scene is inevitably going to crash down on itself. "Balance" is going to mean nothing if everyone's lost interest because they can't play their favorite character.

This is scrub logic.