The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Mew2King]

lol DSF SDed twice in the snake vs MK match, both around like 30%? or something ridiculous. I only had 1 legit kill, I lucked out massively

 

[brinboy789]

Yeah, you're right. High celings suck for MK.

alright, high cielings dont really affect MK, scratch what i said before. but i just tested your dair theory again. it works, but it has to a around a certain percent, and it very hard to pull off. so for our discussion purposes, it is a very situational strategy, and is hard to pull off, so pirate ship is a MK counterpick that is bad for him

 

[salaboB]

A mediocre player is *not* 50-50 with anyone The ratios imply even skill. Anyways I don't think Yoshi is a neutral. Unless MK screws up Yoshi shouldn't be able to grab him. Snake is debatable? Who's the third? Diddy?

I meant mediocre vs. mediocre. I'm pretty sure even at "good" skill levels, Yoshi vs. MK isn't close to 50:50. It takes "excellent" to get that matchup. Point of fact, I believe that most (If not all) of MK's neutrals work like this -- the worse you are, the better off you are just playing MK.

Yes, at the top levels is where things really matter. But for the majority of players this means that MK has one less neutral to choose from because they can't easily master the tricks Yoshi needs to bring the match up to even. If they could, they'd be good enough they could likely beat that MK with almost anyone (ie, they'd be top level players themselves). This impacts the tournament viability of Brawl and makes MK seem even more unbeatable to most people.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Wait I'm a bit confused. Was the DSF/M2K ditto closer or was the Snake/MK closer?

I was eating pizza outside during the ditto match, so all I know of that is M2K won.

The point of my statement was to give an example that the person who is considered the best Snake (DSF) by many took on the best Meta (M2K) on what M2K claims is a great counterpick for Snake vs Meta and the MEta still won and quite handily.

 

[Daimonster]

alright, high cielings dont really affect MK,
so pirate ship is a MK counterpick that is bad for him

Overswarm, how do you...I'm sorry. My head is going to explode yet again.

 

[brinboy789]

I meant mediocre vs. mediocre. I'm pretty sure even at "good" skill levels, Yoshi vs. MK isn't close to 50:50. It takes "excellent" to get that matchup. Point of fact, I believe that most (If not all) of MK's neutrals work like this -- the worse you are, the better off you are just playing MK.

Yes, at the top levels is where things really matter. But for the majority of players this means that MK has one less neutral to choose from because they can't easily master the tricks Yoshi needs to bring the match up to even. If they could, they'd be good enough they could likely beat that MK with almost anyone (ie, they'd be top level players themselves). This impacts the tournament viability of Brawl and makes MK seem even more unbeatable to most people.

samurai panda said highest level of play in the first post of this over3000 post thread...

 

[_Phloat_]

alright, high cielings dont really affect MK, scratch what i said before. but i just tested your dair theory again. it works, but it has to a around a certain percent, and it very hard to pull off. so for our discussion purposes, it is a very situational strategy, and is hard to pull off, so pirate ship is a MK counterpick that is bad for him

High ceilings help MK.

Its not like he is basing his strategy around the dair thing. MK is still excellent at fighting on pirate ship. The fact that a mistake can lead to an instant death makes it great for MK. Its not hard to pull off for me, even with a little practice.

So, one strategy doesn't work for you = the stage doesn't work for MK?

Go away.

 

[salaboB]

samurai panda said highest level of play in the first post of this over3000 post thread...

The topic has moved on a bit since the OP, there are other points being discussed as well.

Highest level of play, Yoshi vs. MK 50:50 is still mostly theorycraft if you want to be that way about it.

 

[_Phloat_]

Ummmm, no, edited and browser freeze dude. Be less of a suspicious douche.

Download google chrome man!

Also, sorry. That stuff never happens to me, didn't know it could. I apologize for assuming you were cheating the system.

 

[brinboy789]

High ceilings help MK.

Its not like he is basing his strategy around the dair thing. MK is still excellent at fighting on pirate ship. The fact that a mistake can lead to an instant death makes it great for MK. Its not hard to pull off for me, even with a little practice.

So, one strategy doesn't work for you = the stage doesn't work for MK?

Go away.

high cieling doesnt really help him, maybe a ilttle more damage till death? his gimping game is destroyed, and he has to rack up damage before he can KO. and now that i think about it, pirate ship has actually low-medium ceiling height

 

[kupo15]

What!? Gimping game destroyed on Pirate ship? Last time I checked MK can Dair you into the ship or Dair you across the water to the death. And when the ship crashes, he can do the Uair>tornado of death.

 

[Deleted member]

The only weaknesses MK has are ones that are universal.

He has no individual weaknesses.

 

[kupo15]

MK has no bad matchups nor bad stages. And going back to MK is beatable argument.. yes he is like Akuma. The thing is, what are the odds that you will be able to consistently get past the fireballs/hard MK stuff to win?

 

[brinboy789]

What!? Gimping game destroyed on Pirate ship? Last time I checked MK can Dair you into the ship or Dair you across the water to the death. And when the ship crashes, he can do the Uair>tornado of death.

when you gimp on pirate ship, they hit the water...not a blast zone. yes he can dair, but that is just a small strategy when most major way of killing is gone, and you have to actually rack up damage for the kill

 

[Master Raven]

Regardless of whether MK gets banned or not he will never be like Akuma. Akuma would completely make MK his *****.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^You mean dair over and over again until they die? I can handle that lol.

 

[kupo15]

Prob not but it was just an example. I was also comparing the two games within the game itself, not comparing the games too each other because you cant compare Brawl and SF

@Brinboy: Well gimping is killing them at low perc and Dair into the ship can be done at low percent and kills. Its gimping in a different sense but even when they are on the water, MK can Dair and hover above the water for another Dair, hover, dair, death. This stage is not a prob for him and the level that tries the kill the players affects everyone. Not only can he do the Uair>tornado death when the ship crashes but he can do it when they are on the mast.

 

[brinboy789]

Prob not but it was just an example. I was also comparing the two games within the game itself, not comparing the games too each other because you cant compare Brawl and SF

@Brinboy: Well gimping is killing them at low perc and Dair into the ship can be done at low percent and kills. Its gimping in a different sense but even when they are on the water, MK can Dair and hover above the water for another Dair, hover, dair, death. This stage is not a prob for him and the level that tries the kill the players affects everyone. Not only can he do the Uair>tornado death when the ship crashes but he can do it when they are on the mast.

just because he can dair them into a stage doesnt mean that the whole stage is good for him. there is a low cieling, which is bad for him. his gimping game, aside from the dair to ship spiking thingy, which is pretty situational, is destroyed, and he actually has to rack up damage to his foes before he can KO. he dies pretty easily here because his recovery is rendered useless due to water, and is an easy cieilng KO for him

 

[kupo15]

how is his dair water thing situational? Just gimp them like you normally would and do the new type of gimp Dair them in the water.

 

[brinboy789]

how is his dair water thing situational? Just gimp them like you normally would and do the new type of gimp Dair them in the water.

its situational because you have to be on the left side of the ship to work and you have to hit them directly toward the ship. and even if it does work easily, what about everything else?

 

[da K.I.D.]

@bboy

youve been refuted on pirate ship for the last 2 pages now, just give up on the idea

this is why people dont like you. this is why instead of answering your questions people just make fun of you and tell you to shut up and go away.

because when they try to educate you, you dont listen you ignore facts and you continue on with your misguided, and incorrect opinon

and for the record, baiting them into the water so that you can continually down air them untill they hit the blastline is not situational because unless the king of red dragons (the small red boat that follows behind the big boat) is there you can hover down airs over the water on both sides of the ship .
he will also not die off the top until later percents because the ceiling is quite high actually

 

[brinboy789]

@bboy

youve been refuted on pirate ship for the last 2 pages now, just give up on the idea

this is why people dont like you. this is why instead of answering your questions people just make fun of you and tell you to shut up and go away.

because when they try to educate you, you dont listen you ignore facts and you continue on with your misguided, and incorrect opinon

and for the record, baiting them into the water so that you can continually down air them untill they hit the blastline is not situational because unless the king of red dragons (the small red boat that follows behind the big boat) is there you can hover down airs over the water on both sides of the ship .
he will also not die off the top until later percents because the ceiling is quite high actually

@ you its called debating. im presenting a theory, theyre trying to disprove it, im trying to prove it. and there IS no blastzome in the bottom of pirate ship unless you can spike, which MK cannot. and you cant just say "dair until he gets into the blast zome" thats like saying "snake ftilt until he dies" unless your opponent is ********, they can predict your dair and do something about it. i agree, if the small dragon boat thingy appears, MK will be @ an advantage there, but who would go there? unless MK forced them there, which then its thier fault. the cieling is pretty low. ive been on there 20 mins ago, i would know.

 

[kupo15]

I agree with da KID. You are not even listening. Its not situational to get them in the water and dair them into the ship if your over there or into the blast zone. It just isnt.

EDIT: Dair him into the ship which spikes into the lower blastzone. And dude, once your in the water, you cant defend yourself no matter how predictable the Dair is.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what kupo said

and i meant the horizontal blast line

 

[LeeHarris]

MK may not have an advantage on pirate ship, but he certainly not at any disadvantage. When you say ceilings or blast zones are bad for him, you should reword that to "the ceiling and blast zones aren't super **** for him like they are on other stages." He can adapt to anything like that.

 

[choknater]

Tether characters can outdo him on Norfair.

 

[kupo15]

Idk about norfair but it does no good if he bans it

 

[Master Raven]

I actually think Norfair is one of MK's best stages.

 

[brinboy789]

I agree with da KID. You are not even listening. Its not situational to get them in the water and dair them into the ship if your over there or into the blast zone. It just isnt.

EDIT: Dair him into the ship which spikes into the lower blastzone. And dude, once your in the water, you cant defend yourself no matter how predictable the Dair is.

you cant refute an entire stage just because of one strategy, and the rest of his advantages are nullified. for example:
gimping, aside from dair, is destroyed
he actually has to rack up damage before he can KO (aside from little ship thingy)
low cieling = bad for MK since he cannot vertically KO, and can be upward KO'ed easily
his amazing recovery is the same as everybody elses because of the water

also, with the dair thing, the ship spike is only on the left side, so you can stay on the right. not saying that MK cannot force you there, but it is a viable strategy. you cant just say this stage is good/neutral for MK for the sole reason of his dair

 

[salaboB]

also, with the dair thing, the ship spike is only on the left side, so you can stay on the right. not saying that MK cannot force you there, but it is a viable strategy. you cant just say this stage is good/neutral for MK for the sole reason of his dair

You have been disproven on this already. Saying over and over "It won't work on the right" when people have explained how it will work on the right is not winning a debate.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You never prove a theory you just don't disprove it. take a freshmen science class will you brinboy?

edit: also since when is it hard for MK to rack up damage?

 

[brinboy789]

-sigh- alright dair is useful in this stage yay! what about

gimping, aside from dair, is destroyed
he actually has to rack up damage before he can KO (aside from little ship thingy)
low cieling = bad for MK since he cannot vertically KO, and can be upward KO'ed easily
his amazing recovery is the same as everybody elses because of the water

tell me why those dont work?

 

[kupo15]

you cant refute an entire stage just because of one strategy, and the rest of his advantages are nullified. for example:
gimping, aside from dair, is destroyed
he actually has to rack up damage before he can KO (aside from little ship thingy)
low cieling = bad for MK since he cannot vertically KO, and can be upward KO'ed easily
his amazing recovery is the same as everybody elses because of the water

also, with the dair thing, the ship spike is only on the left side, so you can stay on the right. not saying that MK cannot force you there, but it is a viable strategy. you cant just say this stage is good/neutral for MK for the sole reason of his dair

I believe the side blast zones are small also which makes his Dsmash better and his Uair can kill pretty well when fresh esp with the low ceiling. And I said why dont you edge guard them like you normally do in the other stages? It will put them in the water leaving you open for Dair gimping. Even if there recovery sucks and the water saves them, thats still a free hit with the Dair. You have yet to refute that.

EDIT:
How is gimping destroyed?
Read Arturito's Edit
Uair
What I said about free hits.

 

[choknater]

I actually think Norfair is one of MK's best stages.

Yeah, he's pretty good there. What I said was tether characters can actually challenge him there. Sheik, Tlink, and ZSS are a lot more mobile there. Sheik's chain is toooo good.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

-sigh- alright dair is useful in this stage yay! what about

gimping, aside from dair, is destroyed It's not destroyed if someone moving trough the air back towards the stage he can use Nair to send them back and once they have a high percent kill them. If they are just falling down he can attack with a shuttle loop.
he actually has to rack up damage before he can KO (aside from little ship thingy)Racking up damage isn't a problem for MK this is stupid.
low cieling = bad for MK since he cannot vertically KO, and can be upward KO'ed easilyWouldn't a low ceiling actually help him since he can KO vertically thanks to it?
his amazing recovery is the same as everybody elses because of the waterHis amazing recovery isn't the same as everyones because it allows him to attack who ever is in the water and chain attacks together.

tell me why those dont work?

People have your just going to re list them in 5 minutes and say why don't these work again.


Also weren't you supposed to have left this discussion 2 days ago?

 

[da K.I.D.]

you cant refute an entire stage just because of one strategy, and the rest of his advantages are nullified. for example:
1. gimping, aside from dair, is destroyed
2. he actually has to rack up damage before he can KO (aside from little ship thingy)
3. low cieling = bad for MK since he cannot vertically KO, and can be upward KO'ed easily
4. his amazing recovery is the same as everybody elses because of the water

5. also, with the dair thing, the ship spike is only on the left side, so you can stay on the right. not saying that MK cannot force you there, but it is a viable strategy. you cant just say this stage is good/neutral for MK for the sole reason of his dair

1. take it like this, a competant Mk will kill you whenever you hit the water. he doesnt need to gimp. he can just keep hitting you back into the water, until you hit the horisontal blast zone.
2. not really, see number 1
3. uhhhhh... grounded shuttle loop has **** verticle power, and starts in i believe 3 frames.
up tilt and up smash are also vertically strong
4. his recovery is still better than everyone elses because he has more jumps and crap that can keep him from going into the water. because if they go out to kill/spike him and they miss and fall in the water. guess what? down air to blast line.
5. he can down air you to the blast line on either side, as long as the king of red dragons isnt there. see number 1

p.s. can i get a name check im not too familiar with zelda, but that small ship is named the king of red dragons right?

 

[brinboy789]

I believe the side blast zones are small also which makes his Dsmash better and his Uair can kill pretty well when fresh esp with the low ceiling. And I said why dont you edge guard them like you normally do in the other stages? It will put them in the water leaving you open for Dair gimping. Even if there recovery sucks and the water saves them, thats still a free hit with the Dair. You have yet to refute that.

EDIT:
How is gimping destroyed?
Read Arturito's Edit
Uair
What I said about free hits.

the side blast zones are really far away. the cieling blast zone is relatively close. uair doesnt have much KO ability unless your opponent is around a ridiculous percentage...and yea, you get a free hit from dair, so what, its better then death. his gimping is destroyed because aside from the water dair thing, he cannot stop his opponents from coming back, they land on water, and keep on coming back. his best KO option here would be to pop them up and hit them with a shuttle loop

 

[M@v]

I am at the MK secondary stage. The original post is 100% correct. Mk beats EVERY one of fox's bad matchups. I doubt I will ever main MK over fox, but the fact that he has no bad matchups makes him almost necessary if you want to win these days. Every tourney I have been to, except one, I have used MK at least once. I am still neutral on this debate, but I can easily see MK getting the ban hammer. He doesn't make brawl fun anymore. Also, notice who the main people against a MK ban are? People winning money with him in tournies. Thats human nature though. Why ban something Im winning with?

Some say: "O guess what? Snake will be next." Wrong. Snake has plenty of choices.

Falco
DDD
Pika
Fox
etc...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's king of red lions da kid. not that it matters though.

Also lol at Brinboy saying MK gains the advantage when he shows up. Not being able to shove someone to the KO zone is an advantage god help us!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I'm not winning anything with him. In fact. My MK is TRASH. But I still don't think he should be banned.... yet.
Come on. Give it some time.