Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
captain falcon says show me ya movesSo in those tournies Snake won't have a problem at all winning? Yeah that was a good idea
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
D
Deleted member
Guest
In as much as Snake has one bad match-up, no.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
2. you forgot about MK
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
If MK is banned captain falcon will sneak up to god tier.
VulgarHandGestures
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 326
snake has more than one bad matchup...
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yes, but the point I was getting at was that Meta Knight is peerless.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Or Olimar, Or DK, or Falco (Falco did have an advantage on him).
Or hell, play all four in the tournament and just laugh as Snakes try in vain to adjust.
lol.
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
Overswarm really does know what he is talking about.
We only have one Meta player who comes to tourneys and no one really cared about Meta, until recently. here are some examples of what is happening here:
1. One of our top ten smashers plays a **** diddy and does extremely well vs almost everyone. Last week he got worked by our meta player, so he decided to pick up meta in the tourney this last saturday he was playing mostly Meta against everyone and doing just as good, if not better, as his Diddy would have.
2. three other players have also recently switched their mains over to Meta recently.
3. The meta player is my best friend and we play each other many hours each week. He beats me very consistently even though we are of pretty even skill and we have both been playing brawl the exact same amount of time (because I am the only person he ever smashes with, not counting tourneys).
On Thursday, after getting sick of getting worked with my mains, snake and oli, I was frustrated and decided to see how I did in Meta dittos. I had never really used Meta before and within the hour my Meta was doing better and winning more than any of my other characters had ever done. I then decided that if I ever go up against a Meta in tourney I was going to counter with Meta.
4. In the tourney I mentioned on Saturday, I got to the finals and I was playing against an extremely good sonic player who had only ever lost to two other players in tournament before (1st in state and my Meta friend). He counter picked Rainbow Cruise - which is bad for both of my mains, snake and olimar and really good for sonic- and I thought I was screwed and had lost the match no matter what. I decided to go Meta just for the heck of it. I two stocked him. Seeing how well my Meta did against him I finished out the rest of the set with Meta and didn't come close to losing another match. My Meta did better than my mains ever have, and probably ever will against him.
This is probably my number one reason for wanting him banned. Remember, I had only been using Meta since Thursday. No one should be able to beat the top in state with a character they have only been using for the past two days, let alone two stock him, myself included.
I have been talking to my Meta friend about this and even he agrees that Meta should be banned after reading part of this thread and seeing our experience at the tourney on Saturday. He thinks that he should be banned and he is the only one in the entire state who will be greatly impacted because he has been maining Meta since the beginning and has rarely used any other character.
We only have one Meta player who comes to tourneys and no one really cared about Meta, until recently. here are some examples of what is happening here:
1. One of our top ten smashers plays a **** diddy and does extremely well vs almost everyone. Last week he got worked by our meta player, so he decided to pick up meta in the tourney this last saturday he was playing mostly Meta against everyone and doing just as good, if not better, as his Diddy would have.
2. three other players have also recently switched their mains over to Meta recently.
3. The meta player is my best friend and we play each other many hours each week. He beats me very consistently even though we are of pretty even skill and we have both been playing brawl the exact same amount of time (because I am the only person he ever smashes with, not counting tourneys).
On Thursday, after getting sick of getting worked with my mains, snake and oli, I was frustrated and decided to see how I did in Meta dittos. I had never really used Meta before and within the hour my Meta was doing better and winning more than any of my other characters had ever done. I then decided that if I ever go up against a Meta in tourney I was going to counter with Meta.
4. In the tourney I mentioned on Saturday, I got to the finals and I was playing against an extremely good sonic player who had only ever lost to two other players in tournament before (1st in state and my Meta friend). He counter picked Rainbow Cruise - which is bad for both of my mains, snake and olimar and really good for sonic- and I thought I was screwed and had lost the match no matter what. I decided to go Meta just for the heck of it. I two stocked him. Seeing how well my Meta did against him I finished out the rest of the set with Meta and didn't come close to losing another match. My Meta did better than my mains ever have, and probably ever will against him.
This is probably my number one reason for wanting him banned. Remember, I had only been using Meta since Thursday. No one should be able to beat the top in state with a character they have only been using for the past two days, let alone two stock him, myself included.
I have been talking to my Meta friend about this and even he agrees that Meta should be banned after reading part of this thread and seeing our experience at the tourney on Saturday. He thinks that he should be banned and he is the only one in the entire state who will be greatly impacted because he has been maining Meta since the beginning and has rarely used any other character.
Don't forget Wario.
Also, more Olimar's and DK's is great for Peaches like myself.
Less MK's means more characters that us mid tiers can counter.
Mmac
Smash Lord
1. I don't see how the fact it's online has any significance due to the fact that both players suffer from the same amount of delay. If we met and played in real life, it will probably generate the same general results.
2. Even if Stage Bans were in play, I could easily pick one of the other Hard Counterpick stages Yoshi has on MetaKnight.
3. That's a long time you know. The Chaingrab was discovered about a month after the US Release. Anyways, as rare as Yoshi Mains are, Good Yoshi mains are even rarer. Only about 1/3 are actually good. I can't really judge if the ones you played recently were good or not.
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Lets not forget about TL lol
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
The diversity is astounding!
****, how many bad matcups does Snake have!?
Vayseth
Smash Master
I'm starting a thread in my region about the banning of metaknight. Here it is:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199362
Starting in November I am banning him at my tournaments, and other TOs are following suit. I suggest everyone also try to ban him by the end of November. Here's to 2009 being Metaknight free.
Thank you.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199362
Starting in November I am banning him at my tournaments, and other TOs are following suit. I suggest everyone also try to ban him by the end of November. Here's to 2009 being Metaknight free.
Thank you.
Gindler
Smash Champion
And yoshi...well a good yoshi, snake just begs to be comboed honestly
D
Deleted member
Guest
Wow, Meta Knight is truly infectious. At a rate like that, the character will have taken over like I theorised (fifty-percent of the populace) by the end of the year, unless he's banned. Immediate action needs to take effect!
Vayseth
Smash Master
DDD is his most glaring weakness, but Donkey Kong, Pikachu, and even Diddy can give Snake a lot of trouble.
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
TL is a neutral match up, but if you know what you are doing. You can easily beat a snake.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I have a strong urge to Say Yoshi, because he's got an Easier Cypher Grab setup on him, and a rather hard Chaingrab to get him to the ledge for said Easy Cypher Grab Setup.
Oh yes, Chip ***** Snakes. Is this a common Toon Link thing?
Even Zero Suit Samus and regular Samus have at the very least neutral matchups against Snake.
There's a lot of Snake counters. He COUNTERS a ton of characters, but is in turn countered by quite a few.
G&W is probably going to be the MK replacement. He's similarly easy to pick up, and has similarly good matchups. In fact, he has only two genuinely bad matchups with MK gone- Toon Link (a counter), and Marth- and only a couple neutral matchups (Olimar, DK, and one or two others I think).
Marth is in line as well. He doesn't counter as many characters as G&W does, and has a LOT more neutral matchups than G&W does, but he has very few if any truly bad matchups. Well rounded.
D
Deleted member
Guest
This is interesting...
Even from the latest page of this thread, you see how much the tournament scene will indeed open if MK is banned. Dedede counters Snake, G&W counters Dedede, G&W has mostly even match-ups... scratch that, I just read the above post, he has mainly counters but he's doable. The fact TL counters him is golden.
Even from the latest page of this thread, you see how much the tournament scene will indeed open if MK is banned. Dedede counters Snake, G&W counters Dedede, G&W has mostly even match-ups... scratch that, I just read the above post, he has mainly counters but he's doable. The fact TL counters him is golden.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
And don't forget about all the characters that counter those characters. In other words, the entire cast (except falcon QQ). Diversity ahoy!
Sounds like that tournament will be alot of FUN!
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Yeah, if banned. The whole cast becomes playable, instead of just one person dominating everything.
Gindler
Smash Champion
I can see G&W being the MK replacement, I had a far easier time picking him up than MK and if you though MK's Dsmash was stupid G&W is just as fast but hits on both sides at once rather than one than the other. I still don't get why G&W isn't the "best" and most bannable in the game, is it the speed or something?
Wheres WARIO.OS said:
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Less range than MK, worse recovery, lighter, long cool down time on several moves, not many "safe" approaches.
Fletch
Smash Master
I usually like your posts, but that couldn't have been serious. Are you saying that online matches = in person matches? It doesn't matter if you beat him online, you might just be a better online player, which is nearly completely irrelevant due to the vast differences of online play.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
GnW is indeed easier to play at a basic level. However, I destroy basic GnW's with Marth because they have predictable approaches and predictable strategies. Better GnW's are a force to be reckoned with, however, but certainly not ban status
Let's list them!
Snake is countered by:
DDD, Donkey Kong, Wario, Falco
Snake goes even with:
Pikachu, Diddy, Peach, ZSS, Samus, Pit, Toon Link, ROB, maybe more I can't think of right now
Game & Watch is countered by:
Toon Link, Marth, Snake (?)
Game & Watch goes even with:
Olimar, DK, maybe Diddy?
Marth is counted by:
No one? (excepting MK)
Marth goes even with:
Like half the cast
Sound accurate? I think this makes G&W the best choice, except that the Marth players will be able to take out the G&W's, and many characters can fight the Marth's just fine. The Snakes will also give the Game&Watches trouble, which means there will be a lot of Snakes, but if you pick up a character that counters Snake, you'll probably be able to go even with the Marth as well, and only worry about G&W.
DK becomes an especially good choice because he counters Snake and goes even with G&W and I think Marth. More DK's means more DDD's just to counter DK. More DDD's hurts Snake even more, but helps G&W along.
Of course, my lovely Peach will **** DK and DDD and Snake (Snake is my favorite matchup, despite it only being even). I might need to pick up a secondary for G&W, or I can hope the influx of Marth's and DK's will take him out for me and just practice the matchup (G&W is Peach's worst matchup, Marth goes even, DK and DDD are disadvantaged).
I look forward to a world without MK. It would be interesting.
But this is EXACTLY why he shouldn't be banned- characters CAN beat him.
Snake is countered by:
DDD, Donkey Kong, Wario, Falco
Snake goes even with:
Pikachu, Diddy, Peach, ZSS, Samus, Pit, Toon Link, ROB, maybe more I can't think of right now
Game & Watch is countered by:
Toon Link, Marth, Snake (?)
Game & Watch goes even with:
Olimar, DK, maybe Diddy?
Marth is counted by:
No one? (excepting MK)
Marth goes even with:
Like half the cast
Sound accurate? I think this makes G&W the best choice, except that the Marth players will be able to take out the G&W's, and many characters can fight the Marth's just fine. The Snakes will also give the Game&Watches trouble, which means there will be a lot of Snakes, but if you pick up a character that counters Snake, you'll probably be able to go even with the Marth as well, and only worry about G&W.
DK becomes an especially good choice because he counters Snake and goes even with G&W and I think Marth. More DK's means more DDD's just to counter DK. More DDD's hurts Snake even more, but helps G&W along.
Of course, my lovely Peach will **** DK and DDD and Snake (Snake is my favorite matchup, despite it only being even). I might need to pick up a secondary for G&W, or I can hope the influx of Marth's and DK's will take him out for me and just practice the matchup (G&W is Peach's worst matchup, Marth goes even, DK and DDD are disadvantaged).
I look forward to a world without MK. It would be interesting.
Actually, I have a lot more trouble with G&W than MK, but the difference is that G&W can be counterpicked. Take Toon Link or Snake or Marth and you have the advantage. You can't do that with MK.
You underestimate G&W, because you have a character that can defeat his predictable approach. For 90% of characters, his predictable approach (bair) is not punishable. Toon Link (bombs), Marth (counter and sword range), and Snake (grenades and tilt range) can, so it seems easy.
But this is EXACTLY why he shouldn't be banned- characters CAN beat him.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
They leave room for punishment. At the end of an imperfect GW attack, you can pretty much always hit him. This just isn't the case for meta.
Foxy
Smash Master
Fantastic post, I think that more people need to acknowledge it.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
And that's not even taking into account dual mains, secondaries, tertiaries, counterpicks and any other multitude of other optional characters players have. Aside from metaknight this game is quite the chess match.
However, there is still one character that really doesn't need a secondary, which is marth. However he doesn't **** the entire cast. Most characters can deal with him, or at the very least everyone has proficiency with a character that can deal with marth effectively.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
****, sorry, double post.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I didn't say that exactly. I'm well aware of the difference between offline play, and the .25 Second Delay on Online play. I said Generally the outcome will remain the same. I play just as well online as offline. Overswarm will do better Offline (Probably everyone does), but you also got to remember that most likely the person you are playing will do better offline also. You got to look at it both ways.
Maybe that's why people feel so bad about MK? Perhaps player skill has a smaller effect in the MK matchup. You can't mindgame to bait out an attack and punish if MK is too lagless to punish.
Yep, but as I mentioned in my post, despite the fact that there are no counters and you don't need secondaries, you have a LOT of neutral matchups. Most people you fight will be going even with you if you play Marth- you'll rarely have the advantage, but you won't be disadvantaged either.However, there is still one character that really doesn't need a secondary, which is marth. However he doesn't **** the entire cast. Most characters can deal with him, or at the very least everyone has proficiency with a character that can deal with marth effectively.Let's list them!
Snake is countered by:
DDD, Donkey Kong, Wario, Falco
Snake goes even with:
Pikachu, Diddy, Peach, ZSS, Samus, Pit, Toon Link, ROB, maybe more I can't think of right now
Game & Watch is countered by:
Toon Link, Marth, Snake (?)
Game & Watch goes even with:
Olimar, DK, maybe Diddy?
Marth is counted by:
No one? (excepting MK)
Marth goes even with:
Like half the cast
Sound accurate? I think this makes G&W the best choice, except that the Marth players will be able to take out the G&W's, and many characters can fight the Marth's just fine. The Snakes will also give the Game&Watches trouble, which means there will be a lot of Snakes, but if you pick up a character that counters Snake, you'll probably be able to go even with the Marth as well, and only worry about G&W.
DK becomes an especially good choice because he counters Snake and goes even with G&W and I think Marth. More DK's means more DDD's just to counter DK. More DDD's hurts Snake even more, but helps G&W along.
Of course, my lovely Peach will **** DK and DDD and Snake (Snake is my favorite matchup, despite it only being even). I might need to pick up a secondary for G&W, or I can hope the influx of Marth's and DK's will take him out for me and just practice the matchup (G&W is Peach's worst matchup, Marth goes even, DK and DDD are disadvantaged).
I look forward to a world without MK. It would be interesting.
Actually, I have a lot more trouble with G&W than MK, but the difference is that G&W can be counterpicked. Take Toon Link or Snake or Marth and you have the advantage. You can't do that with MK.
You underestimate G&W, because you have a character that can defeat his predictable approach. For 90% of characters, his predictable approach (bair) is not punishable. Toon Link (bombs), Marth (counter and sword range), and Snake (grenades and tilt range) can, so it seems easy.
But this is EXACTLY why he shouldn't be banned- characters CAN beat him.
So if you main Marth with no secondaries, you simply have to be better than your opponent to win. Opposite of MK.
It looks like people are getting seriously close to banning MK. That's....interesting.
I just got done owning a Meta Knight (yes it was wifi) in 4 out of 5 games. They were all pretty close...but then he told me that he's only been using MK for 3-4 days. >_>
ehhh I still don't think he should be banned yet. YET.
I just got done owning a Meta Knight (yes it was wifi) in 4 out of 5 games. They were all pretty close...but then he told me that he's only been using MK for 3-4 days. >_>
ehhh I still don't think he should be banned yet. YET.
D
Deleted member
Guest
The prospect of maining Marth probably just became a whole lot more delicious. Delicious, I tell you.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
This will probably be passed over, but I am going to give my number one reason as to why I think MK should be banned.
Some of you may know this, but I've thought MK is broken long before it become such a hot topic. I've started a lot of discussion on the matter (and unfortunately angered a lot of people), so I've covered almost all ends of the arguments.
The main reason I think MK should be banned:
No bad matchups or stages. When you go double blind first round, do you risk it and pick someone with at least 3 potential counters? Hell no! You go with the character that is not only a step above the rest, but has no weaknesses, bad matchups, or bad stages. Why risk it? Then there's....
Counterpicking. It is a huge part of the Smash tournament system. When you lose the first round of a set, you not only get to choose which stage you'd like to use, but you get to choose your character after your opponent. It gives you or your opponent the chance to win a match using unique stages and tactics.
When you main a character like Snake you really have to think wisely about your choice of character. Do you stay Snake because he is your best character, or do you change for fear of your opponent picking Falco, D3, or ROB? What if he picked Rainbow Cruise? It's a tough decision and it's a game of wits.
Unfortunately, Metaknight mains (or really even secondaries) do not have to worry about this. If you win the first round, it doesn't matter what stage your opponent picks. Once he picks it, you instantly know what to use. Because he has no counterpicks, character or stage wise, he is always and 100% the safe choice in the counterpick round. In a situation where one person should be able to use a unique stage and counter picking abilities to give himself an advantage, he achieves nothing because there is no situation where MK is at a disadvantage. It not only ruins our counterpicking system, but it also destroys diversity amongst characters because unless you are extremely gifted in Smash, you have to pick up MK at least as a secondary to remain tournament viable.
He is ALWAYS the 100% safe choice in any situation.
Some of you may know this, but I've thought MK is broken long before it become such a hot topic. I've started a lot of discussion on the matter (and unfortunately angered a lot of people), so I've covered almost all ends of the arguments.
The main reason I think MK should be banned:
No bad matchups or stages. When you go double blind first round, do you risk it and pick someone with at least 3 potential counters? Hell no! You go with the character that is not only a step above the rest, but has no weaknesses, bad matchups, or bad stages. Why risk it? Then there's....
Counterpicking. It is a huge part of the Smash tournament system. When you lose the first round of a set, you not only get to choose which stage you'd like to use, but you get to choose your character after your opponent. It gives you or your opponent the chance to win a match using unique stages and tactics.
When you main a character like Snake you really have to think wisely about your choice of character. Do you stay Snake because he is your best character, or do you change for fear of your opponent picking Falco, D3, or ROB? What if he picked Rainbow Cruise? It's a tough decision and it's a game of wits.
Unfortunately, Metaknight mains (or really even secondaries) do not have to worry about this. If you win the first round, it doesn't matter what stage your opponent picks. Once he picks it, you instantly know what to use. Because he has no counterpicks, character or stage wise, he is always and 100% the safe choice in the counterpick round. In a situation where one person should be able to use a unique stage and counter picking abilities to give himself an advantage, he achieves nothing because there is no situation where MK is at a disadvantage. It not only ruins our counterpicking system, but it also destroys diversity amongst characters because unless you are extremely gifted in Smash, you have to pick up MK at least as a secondary to remain tournament viable.
He is ALWAYS the 100% safe choice in any situation.
I'm fairly certain the host suffers less delay.
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