The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[_Phloat_]

****, sorry, double post.

Unedited and a minute away from the original >_>

Either way, I need someone to back this up for me, but I believe GnW was rewritten to have the advantage against TL, you just have to play differently.

 

[Deleted member]

Unedited and a minute away from the original >_>

Either way, I need someone to back this up for me, but I believe GnW was rewritten to have the advantage against TL, you just have to play differently.

Seeing as TL destroys G&W's strongest move (turtle)... I doubt it.

 

[Master Raven]

Everyone seems so adamant about counterpicking, or is counterpicking THAT important in Brawl?

 

[Mocha19]

Everyone seems so adamant about counterpicking, or is counterpicking THAT important in Brawl?

No.. The game (ever since Melee) was supposed to be more about skill than anything else. The game evolved into counterpicking.

 

[Asdioh]

He is ALWAYS the 100% safe choice in any situation.

Kirby really doesn't have any bad stages, and he has no huge disadvantage against any character. He shouldn't be banned as well?

When I play at a tourney, I go all Kirby, regardless of the stage or opponent's character.

I understand your point though, my Kirby is like the Meta Knight you speak of, but to a smaller extent.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Everyone seems so adamant about counterpicking, or is counterpicking THAT important in Brawl?

Yeah, it's very important. When people stop getting thrown off by "WTF do I do against Sonic/Yoshi/character they have very little experience fighting?!"

The prospect of maining Marth probably just became a whole lot more delicious. Delicious, I tell you.

Watch out for funky counterpicks. Fighting Snake on Green Greens is hard!

@Asdioh. Kirby still has to deal with Marth. And Kirby may not have huge disadvantages, but he does have disadvantages nontheless, and thus isn't the best choice 100% of the time.

 

[Mmac]

I'm fairly certain the host suffers less delay.

He was the one hosting, so if true, then he had more of an advantage.

However maybe I jump to a statement too soon...

 

[Overswarm]

You guys that think Marth doesn't have any counters haven't played a good Toon Link or ROB ^_^

 

[Tien2500]

Everyone seems so adamant about counterpicking, or is counterpicking THAT important in Brawl?

Yeah. A character having a counter is what keeps them from completely dominating the Metagame.

Also does Marth really have no counters? Snake? Pit? Falco? ROB? Are they just even?

 

[salaboB]

No.. The game (ever since Melee) was supposed to be more about skill than anything else. The game evolved into counterpicking.

The only real option to force skill in a game with Brawl's design would to do locked dittos. Random initial character (Maybe with a few banned characters that each player could choose to *not* have selectable for the random), then loser picks the next two (Or it ends if the guy loses again) and it's all player skill and knowledge of every character. Stage banning wouldn't matter so much then, either.

Since that's not a very good way to do things, counterpicks are what will happen.

Or everyone will be MK. But that's really no better than my ditto suggestion.

He was the one hosting, so if true, then he had more of an advantage.

However maybe I jump to a statement too soon...

Online brawl has two big problems: The lag is variable, so you can't even get used to the delay between reactions, and the mechanics are slightly different (Buffering is modified). So while the host tends to get less lag, the variance in it means the advantage isn't as large as it might otherwise be.

However, in low lag conditions the variance and host-client difference are both going to be minimal. Either way, playing online messes both players up because any amount of lag changes things that would normally work and it can't be used as an accurate basis for judging matchups.

 

[Zelc]

He is ALWAYS the 100% safe choice in any situation.

Devil's advocate argument: This standard will also result in a ban of Marth. He has no awful matchups either.

Counter argument: Marth has at least one slightly bad matchup in Snake. Also, at lower levels of skill, Marth has bad matchups like ROB. Finally, Marth has laggier attacks and thus it's easier for player skill to make an effect.

 

[Tien2500]

Kirby really doesn't have any bad stages, and he has no huge disadvantage against any character. He shouldn't be banned as well?

When I play at a tourney, I go all Kirby, regardless of the stage or opponent's character.

I understand your point though, my Kirby is like the Meta Knight you speak of, but to a smaller extent.

No. Kirby has many matchups where he is disadvantaged or neutral. MK (of course), I believe Dedede, DK I would think. Kirby doesn't flat out dominate most of the cast like MK either. I can do fine against Kirby with my main (ZSS), or my secondary (Zelda), or my other secondary (PT... Up for debate but I think he does well here.)

 

[Master Raven]

I know having counters are important to keeping a metagame healthy, but everyone seems very very obsessed with counterpicking to the point where you seem to NEED to get good with character X to counterpick character Y, or if both your main and secondaries don't counter character A then you need to get good with character B if you wanna bother to win and etc.

 

[CR4SH]

Unedited and a minute away from the original >_>

Either way, I need someone to back this up for me, but I believe GnW was rewritten to have the advantage against TL, you just have to play differently.

Ummmm, no, edited and browser freeze dude. Be less of a suspicious douche.

Anyway, yes this game relies heavily on counterpicking. For an example I know intimately, wario is an excellent character, but watch a good wario play a good luigi. Even though wario is overall superior as a character, he gets dominated in this matchup.

However, if you're a snake main up against a good wario, and you're not completely familiar with luigi's game, counterpicking with luigi is a bad option. Matchups come into play when skill levels with the different characters are fairly equal. Matchups aren't everything, but they're definetly very important.

 

[Tien2500]

I know having counters are important to keeping a metagame healthy, but everyone seems very very obsessed with counterpicking to the point where you seem to NEED to get good with character X to counterpick character Y, or if both your main and secondaries don't counter character A then you need to get good with character B if you wanna bother to win and etc.

Lets say you play as DK. If you want to be successful in a tournament you do NEED to have a counterpick to Dedede. If you are a Pokemon Trainer you NEED a counter to Marth. Counterpicking is a necessity.

 

[Overswarm]

Devil's advocate argument: This standard will also result in a ban of Marth. He has no awful matchups either.

Counter argument: Marth has at least one slightly bad matchup in Snake. Also, at lower levels of skill, Marth has bad matchups like ROB. Finally, Marth has laggier attacks and thus it's easier for player skill to make an effect.

MK doesn't even have even matchups except for MK.

Marth has bad stages.

Marth, imo, has quite a few bad matchups that haven't been fully fleshed out yet.

Marth has laggy attacks that can be punished.

Marth can be edgeguarded.

Marth can be gimped.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You guys that think Marth doesn't have any counters haven't played a good Toon Link or ROB ^_^

I thought R.O.B was 50:50 and Toon Link was 60:40 Marth's favor.

But of course that only applies to top level play, and I'd imagine lower level play would look something like

65:35 R.O.Bs favor (no joke, if you spacing isn't perfect with Marth, then the match is almost unbearable).

55:45 TL's favor (spacing isn't as important here, since it's Marth's rushdown that wins him this match. But dealing with projectiles takes practice).

So yeah, Marth players will not be enjoying the instant advantageous matchups that MK mains are used to.

 

[Punishment Divine]

@OS didn't you debate that with EL like months ago? lol. Well I'd say ROB is a 50/50 for Marth, and Snake beats him 60/40. I also feel Marth loses to DDD, probably 60/40 as well, and you also have to take into account that he goes even with much of the cast and even the characters he has a good matchup against, among them there's probably only...6 or so that's above 60/40.

You guys also aren't taking into account that Marth takes A LOT of dedication and most of his matchups still require you to be better than your opponent.

 

[Mocha19]

The only real option to force skill in a game with Brawl's design would to do locked dittos. Random initial character (Maybe with a few banned characters that each player could choose to *not* have selectable for the random), then loser picks the next two (Or it ends if the guy loses again) and it's all player skill and knowledge of every character. Stage banning wouldn't matter so much then, either.

Since that's not a very good way to do things, counterpicks are what will happen.

Or everyone will be MK. But that's really no better than my ditto suggestion.

It's the counterpicking that's got everyone confused and wanting Meta Knight to be banned right now. Now that's it's been set that Meta Knight has no counters, everyone's getting pissed off because they relied on it for too long and now they have no way of countering (even though Meta Knight has some neutral-rated matchups).

Goddesses forbid they practice their bad matchups to develop new strategies.. =[

 

[Deleted member]

What neutrals does MK have? If anything, his match-ups are becoming more and more one-sided.

 

[salaboB]

Goddesses forbid they practice their bad matchups to develop new strategies.. =[

You say this as if people haven't been trying to find these magical strategies for the last three months.

 

[Overswarm]

You say this as if people haven't been trying to find these magical strategies for the last three months.

Three months? The only two people I played since the game came out were Metaknight players!

 

[Tien2500]

It's the counterpicking that's got everyone confused and wanting Meta Knight to be banned right now. Now that's it's been set that Meta Knight has no counters, everyone's getting pissed off because they relied on it for too long and now they have no way of countering (even though Meta Knight has some neutral-rated matchups).

Goddesses forbid they practice their bad matchups to develop new strategies.. =[

MK has such little lag on his attacks that it is ridiculously safe to attack as him and he can attack while leaving such a small window of oppurtunity for retaliation that you realistically have little chance of *consistently* beating MK.

If I practiced as Snake alot I'm sure I'd get good. I'd get good enough to beat MKs on my level... sometimes... But I'd lose more often then not. So if I want to win tournaments consistently I should choose a character that can take MK.

My choices are... Ummmmm... MK.

 

[Tien2500]

Oh and I have to say this...

Counterpicking is what keeps the game (somewhat) balanced. Please don't debate this.

 

[salaboB]

Three months? The only two people I played since the game came out were Metaknight players!

I was playing it safe and talking general population since MK began to show signs of domination.

Nobody has explained where this feeling that if he's left unbanned people will find ways to counter him comes from.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He was the one hosting, so if true, then he had more of an advantage.

However maybe I jump to a statement too soon...

its not true.
The game will ALWAYS lag according to who has the worst connection regardless i they are host or not.

 

[Pompi]

returning to the original topic i think he should because in many ways picking mk = win

 

[The Real Inferno]

Snakes have been beaten and DSF, the best one, has picked up MK.

I didn't bother to mention this earlier but at HOBO 11 DSF lost in Meta dittos to M2K and counterpicked Snake on Norfair (M2K claims this beats Meta). It didn't even look like a close match as M2K cake-walked.

 

[Asdioh]

Devil's advocate argument: This standard will also result in a ban of Marth. He has no awful matchups either.

Even if he has no awful matchup in a character, he has some bad stages. Rainbow Cruise and Jungle Japes come to mind.

No. Kirby has many matchups where he is disadvantaged or neutral. MK (of course), I believe Dedede, DK I would think. Kirby doesn't flat out dominate most of the cast like MK either. I can do fine against Kirby with my main (ZSS), or my secondary (Zelda), or my other secondary (PT... Up for debate but I think he does well here.)

Yeah, but I said huge disadvantages. Two of his "worst" matchups, Snake and Marth, have just gotten closer to neutral in the more recent character discussions. But like I said, I was just using Kirby as an example of a less exaggerated Meta Knight. I realize MK is neutral or better against essentially all characters. Kirby is neutral or better against only most characters.

 

[Tien2500]

I didn't bother to mention this earlier but at HOBO 11 DSF lost in Meta dittos to M2K and counterpicked Snake on Norfair (M2K claims this beats Meta). It didn't even look like a close match as M2K cake-walked.

Wait I'm a bit confused. Was the DSF/M2K ditto closer or was the Snake/MK closer?

 

[Daimonster]

Counterpicking helps in tournament success. It's not the sole reason why players do well though. Take Azen for example, he uses his character in such a manner to combat Lucario's weaknesses. However, the reason why players get so bent outa shape over counterpicking is because MK has 0 counters. 0 characters or stages. Trust me, a 6:4 matchup really isn't that bad...but it would be nice if MK had any 4:6 matchups.
In a 4:6 matchup, the player has to play to his character's weaknesses so that they become strengths. MK doesn't have to worry about playing any specific way. He can be used however he wants and do very well in tournament.

 

[Tien2500]

Even if he has no awful matchup in a character, he has some bad stages. Rainbow Cruise and Jungle Japes come to mind.

Yeah, but I said huge disadvantages. Two of his "worst" matchups, Snake and Marth, have just gotten closer to neutral in the more recent character discussions. But like I said, I was just using Kirby as an example of a less exaggerated Meta Knight. I realize MK is neutral or better against essentially all characters. Kirby is neutral or better against only most characters.

Is rainbow cruise legal?

Anyway ah. No. Kirby is not a more extreme version of MK. Its not comparable. Kirby has his fair share of disadvantageous matchups. On the Kirby boards (where I think he's overrated a bit) Snake is listed as 70/30, Marth as 30/70, ROB as 65/35. Thats three hard counters. Zelda and Game and Watch and Climbers soft counter. And he has 13 neutrals. And this is just on the Kirby boards which are biased towards him. (45-55 MK? Really?)

So lets compare...

Kirby- 3 hard counters, 3 soft counters, 13 neutrals.
MK- 0 hard counters, 0 soft counters, 0 neutrals.

Big big difference.

 

[salaboB]

Is rainbow cruise legal?

Anyway ah. No. Kirby is not a more extreme version of MK. Its not comparable. Kirby has his fair share of disadvantageous matchups. On the Kirby boards (where I think he's overrated a bit) Snake is listed as 70/30, Marth as 30/70, ROB as 65/35. Thats three hard counters. Zelda and Game and Watch and Climbers soft counter. And he has 13 neutrals. And this is just on the Kirby boards which are biased towards him. (45-55 MK? Really?)

So lets compare...

Kirby- 3 hard counters, 3 soft counters, 13 neutrals.
MK- 0 hard counters, 0 soft counters, 0 neutrals.

Big big difference.

Arguably 2-3 neutrals for MK. But they're neutral-slightly in his favor, and/or only show up if you're extremely good with the character (A mediocre Yoshi is *not* 50:50 with MK.)

 

[brinboy789]

wondering: wouldnt pirate ship be a bad counterpick for MK? high cieling, water kills his gimping powers, so he has to rack up a hella lot of damage before he can kill? im pretty sure pirate ship is counterpick too.

 

[Overswarm]

wondering: wouldnt pirate ship be a bad counterpick for MK? high cieling, water kills his gimping powers, so he has to rack up a hella lot of damage before he can kill? im pretty sure pirate ship is counterpick too.

I CP to this stage when I play online XD

Get them on the right side of the ship, knock them off into the water. Get on the left side of them and hit them with a dair. Repeat and it carries them into the ship for a OHKO

XD

 

[Tien2500]

Arguably 2-3 neutrals for MK. But they're neutral-slightly in his favor, and/or only show up if you're extremely good with the character (A mediocre Yoshi is *not* 50:50 with MK.)

A mediocre player is *not* 50-50 with anyone The ratios imply even skill. Anyways I don't think Yoshi is a neutral. Unless MK screws up Yoshi shouldn't be able to grab him. Snake is debatable? Who's the third? Diddy?

 

[brinboy789]

I CP to this stage when I play online XD

Get them on the right side of the ship, knock them off into the water. Get on the left side of them and hit them with a dair. Repeat and it carries them into the ship for a OHKO

XD

the opponent can jump...duh? they can jump and recover. it has lag when you land on the water.

btw, pirate ship IS a CP

edit: dair chain on waterdoes NOT work. i told my brother to try and escape and he did. i told him to be mario.

 

[Overswarm]

the opponent can jump...duh? they can jump and recover. it has lag when you land on the water.

btw, pirate ship IS a CP

.... >_>

The opponent hits the water and during the lag, you dair them. MK doesn't hit the water. He just keeps dairing them.

 

[brinboy789]

.... >_>

The opponent hits the water and during the lag, you dair them. MK doesn't hit the water. He just keeps dairing them.

oh...it takes extreme timing though. still think that this is a bad CP for MK. he has an advantage, dairing on water, but everything else that makes him so good is pretty much nullified

 

[Overswarm]

oh...it takes extreme timing though. still think that this is a bad CP for MK. he has an advantage, dairing on water, but everything else that makes him so good is pretty much nullified

Yeah, you're right. High celings suck for MK.