The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[memphischains]

sliq > everyone

 

[Deleted member]

You aren't funny. Either don't post or quit life.

How do I incorporate quiting life into my playstyle?

w/b

 

[Overswarm]

or like when you talk to overswarm

that doesn't even fit the situation

 

[memphischains]

@ smash daddy - play sonic
@ overswarm - thats a john

 

[ftl]

So, just a question to OS. I know you're very much in favor of the ban (I'm an astute reader, I picked up on it ) and M2K is very much against it.

Do you know where specifically you disagree? The impression I get is that you believe that MK is essentially the only option if you want to win at a high level of play and will stay that way, whereas M2K thinks that he's this dominant because his metagame advanced faster than the rest, and if we give him more time others will catch up and will go back having neutral matchups against him? Is that a fair summary of the disagreement, or is there something else too?

I'm certainly not at all comfortable concluding that 'MK will stay far ahead of everyone else' when there are some top players who vehemently disagree.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

tornado restriction sounds like a good one spamming shouldnt be allowed anyways

 

[Tien2500]

tornado restriction sounds like a good one spamming shouldnt be allowed anyways

Here is a flameshield. You may need it.,

 

[da K.I.D.]

ftl: yup thats about right...
OS: keep up the good work
MS: you fail, play sonic moar

 

[metaXzero]

tornado restriction sounds like a good one spamming shouldnt be allowed anyways

You can't be serious...

 

[NeoCrono]

You can't be serious...

I think he is...
The tornado is the least of my worries. Its his high priority that I'm worried about, and the fact that its easy to learn how to use him effectively.

 

[Overswarm]

So, just a question to OS. I know you're very much in favor of the ban (I'm an astute reader, I picked up on it ) and M2K is very much against it.

Do you know where specifically you disagree? The impression I get is that you believe that MK is essentially the only option if you want to win at a high level of play and will stay that way, whereas M2K thinks that he's this dominant because his metagame advanced faster than the rest, and if we give him more time others will catch up and will go back having neutral matchups against him? Is that a fair summary of the disagreement, or is there something else too?

I'm certainly not at all comfortable concluding that 'MK will stay far ahead of everyone else' when there are some top players who vehemently disagree.

I originally thought you could beat MK. I studied the matchup and character more than most, playing almost exclusively against Kel and Scarecrow, two Midwest MK players. At one point I played against Scarecrow, my lil bro, every day for at least 2 hours ROB vs. MK. It didn't help when I played DSF's MK vs. my ROB... I got wrecked. Unfortuantely, I couldn't jsut say "wow, DSF is so much better than me" because I did just as well against his Snake with ROB as he did against my ROB with his MK! To add icing to the cake, I did very well in MK dittos even though I didn't really play that character at the time. Was definitely a WTF? moment for me.

Then for a short while I thought it'd be like Sheik or Fox... but we're smarter than we were at the beginning of Melee. MK isn't dominating due to chain grabs, and our DI doesn't suck. He's not like Fox either.... Fox got destroyed as much as he destroyed others. Plus, Fox wasn't alone in his awesomeness. Marth, Falco, Sheik were all up there with him. And Fox's recovery was easily attacked.


Then my first MK tournament, I got 2nd in the custom stage tournament using SBR stages and got 5th in the actual tournament singles and 1rst in doubles.

I beat Anther, one of the MW's best, in the custom stage tournament, and lost to Joel, a G&W.

I lost to Anther on the last game of our set, 130% for both of us when I was hit. Joel beat me again as well, but I did better vs. him than I had ever done before.

I had picked up MK two weeks before then.


As time has gone on, all of the best players have either starting maining MK, picking up MK as a secondary, or leaving. Even Azen uses MK at the end of tournaments consistently now. Smash just isn't fun with MK being in the mix... I have no reason to play any other character, ever, or even learn more than 3 or 4 matchups. MK's playstyle is incredibly simple and easy to pick up, and you HAVE to play him to win on a national level.

Sure, I could main ROB and do well in the midwest... but if I ever wanted to travel I'd be screwed simply because I wasn't playing MK.

There has been a lot of talk of "counters".

DKs, like Bum, have been beaten. Inui's fresh and untested MK beat him.

Diddys, like Ninjalink, have been beaten. Inui again.

Snakes have been beaten and DSF, the best one, has picked up MK.

Lucario? Azen's the only one and he even switches to MK when push comes to shove.

G&W? This matchup has been increasingly falling in MKs favor as more info is discovered.

ROB is hard countered by MK. I invented the character, built him from the ground up, and switched to MK.

Yoshi? No. It's not even an option.



There's nothing you can do to make MK a bad choice.... so why try?

 

[choknater]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199335

Mercy for the Creature with Sword

By choknater

Behind the mask, I view your wretched face.
Oppressed by commoners, enslaved by those
Who seek to spin and spin, setting the pace.
You claim proud destiny, won by a nose.

Your banishment that hangs upon a thread
The cyclonic strengths, rapid beyond blinks
Corrupt nectar envied by steak and bread
The johns shriek. What to do? Each party thinks.

In some trained hands you're cared for, lonely pet
Among yelping poodles, a quiet Dane
For others, bold, grave expectations met
Your wings be clipped, forever banned a main

Solutions never come. Fate unfurled,
One knight brings brawls of madness to the world.

 

[Praxis]

I originally thought you could beat MK. I studied the matchup and character more than most, playing almost exclusively against Kel and Scarecrow, two Midwest MK players. At one point I played against Scarecrow, my lil bro, every day for at least 2 hours ROB vs. MK. It didn't help when I played DSF's MK vs. my ROB... I got wrecked. Unfortuantely, I couldn't jsut say "wow, DSF is so much better than me" because I did just as well against his Snake with ROB as he did against my ROB with his MK! To add icing to the cake, I did very well in MK dittos even though I didn't really play that character at the time. Was definitely a WTF? moment for me.

Then for a short while I thought it'd be like Sheik or Fox... but we're smarter than we were at the beginning of Melee. MK isn't dominating due to chain grabs, and our DI doesn't suck. He's not like Fox either.... Fox got destroyed as much as he destroyed others. Plus, Fox wasn't alone in his awesomeness. Marth, Falco, Sheik were all up there with him. And Fox's recovery was easily attacked.


Then my first MK tournament, I got 2nd in the custom stage tournament using SBR stages and got 5th in the actual tournament singles and 1rst in doubles.

I beat Anther, one of the MW's best, in the custom stage tournament, and lost to Joel, a G&W.

I lost to Anther on the last game of our set, 130% for both of us when I was hit. Joel beat me again as well, but I did better vs. him than I had ever done before.

I had picked up MK two weeks before then.


As time has gone on, all of the best players have either starting maining MK, picking up MK as a secondary, or leaving. Even Azen uses MK at the end of tournaments consistently now. Smash just isn't fun with MK being in the mix... I have no reason to play any other character, ever, or even learn more than 3 or 4 matchups. MK's playstyle is incredibly simple and easy to pick up, and you HAVE to play him to win on a national level.

Sure, I could main ROB and do well in the midwest... but if I ever wanted to travel I'd be screwed simply because I wasn't playing MK.

There has been a lot of talk of "counters".

DKs, like Bum, have been beaten. Inui's fresh and untested MK beat him.

Diddys, like Ninjalink, have been beaten. Inui again.

Snakes have been beaten and DSF, the best one, has picked up MK.

Lucario? Azen's the only one and he even switches to MK when push comes to shove.

G&W? This matchup has been increasingly falling in MKs favor as more info is discovered.

ROB is hard countered by MK. I invented the character, built him from the ground up, and switched to MK.

Yoshi? No. It's not even an option.



There's nothing you can do to make MK a bad choice.... so why try?

Smash just isn't fun with MK being in the mix... I have no reason to play any other character, ever, or even learn more than 3 or 4 matchups.

^THIS^

It's an appeal to emotion fallacy, I know, but Smash isn't FUN when MK-dominated. It's frustrating, and even though he's not Akuma-level gamebreaking, he WILL dominate the metagame, and the game will lose fun appeal in a competitive setting because anyone not playing MK will eb at a massive disadvantage. Banning MK will make the game more fun. And that argument sadly does not fly in some places. But I play this game for fun.

Best post in the thread. Thanks.

 

[choknater]

Is "MK is fast and easy to pick up" really relevant? Seriously?

 

[Overswarm]

Is "MK is fast and easy to pick up" really relevant? Seriously?

Yes.

Mastering Fox was a slow and tedious process that most gave up on and actually did better with other characters despite Fox's superior stats. I saw several players pick up a character like Peach merely because they had no technical skill and then do great in comparison to their efforts with Fox.

Metaknight is easy to pick up AND deadly, meaning that this won't just be a "hard matchup", but a plague.

 

[tha_carter]

I dont see how anyone can refute OVERSWARMS posts. Undebateable facts. Hopefully his voice isnt ignored.

@choknater
Obviously its relevant. 'Easy' to pick up is the main reason why you have so many MK newcomers gaining dominance.

 

[WVI]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199335

Mercy for the Creature with Sword

By choknater

Behind the mask, I view your wretched face.

Just throwing this out there - Meta Knight is extremely cute behind the mask.

 

[choknater]

^however his expression must be twisted with all the pressure and stress of being metaknight^

Anyway.

I guess I see where you guys are coming from, but "fast and easy to pick up" does not mean mastery of the character. I thought the argument was about whether or not he is too good for the metagame, not about how many people will choose him and want to play him.

"Stagnating the metagame" is a stupid issue IMO because people who choose to play other mains will still be pioneering characters. It just won't be with the same speed as people have been doing with MK. Those anti-Metaknight strategies are out there. Seriously, instead of theorybros all the time, do people actually play close attention to Azen's Lucario (sorry for bringing it up again but this example works) and how his matches turn out against Metaknights?

He only loses to pretty much Mew2King, and lost to Lee because he predicted Azen VERY well in those matches. He predicted Azen wouldn't sweetspot so he used ledgehop nairs. Azen messed up on his spacing and edgeguards often. Is this Metaknight's fault?

I'm not even sure anymore.

I suppose I am still just being optomistic... the anti-MK arguments are just getting stronger and stronger.

However, I still side with Mew2King that it's all just a brainwashing via a mob-mentality from his outcry to be banned.

 

[da K.I.D.]

almost as cute as kirby

also fox was arguably the best character and had a distinct advantage over link, however, at the highest levels, even though fox could waveshine link from 0 to death, many links won that matchup for two reasons

1. most did not have the tech skill or hand dextarity to waveshine link from one side of final D to the other.
2. With amazing DI you could get out of the waveshine

ease of play factored big into this and most of fox's matchups

 

[BentoBox]

Chok, some people do have the right to feel cheated when players of lesser skill get that much farther ahead because of their character.

 

[Overswarm]

I guess I see where you guys are coming from, but "fast and easy to pick up" does not mean mastery of the character. I thought the argument was about whether or not he is too good for the metagame, not about how many people will choose him and want to play him.

If MK was broken beyond belief but only one guy picked him, it wouldn't be as big an issue. The problem is that the Metaknight you get directly correlates to your skill level... after only 2 weeks of haphazard friendlies and online matches from time to time, I was able to go toe to toe with the best in the midwest and even have improved performance against some of them. As Metaknight is incredibly easy to pick up, it wasn't hard to reach the same level I was at with my ROB that I had been playing since before the US version was released!

When someone picks up Metaknight, they become a threat to everyone at and slightly above their level. This clogs the tournament scene.

"Stagnating the metagame" is a stupid issue IMO because people who choose to play other mains will still be pioneering characters. It just won't be with the same speed as people have been doing with MK. Those anti-Metaknight strategies are out there. Seriously, instead of theorybros all the time, do people actually play close attention to Azen's Lucario (sorry for bringing it up again but this example works) and how his matches turn out against Metaknights?

I watched them, but it got a little fuzzy when he started using downsmash and shuttle loops against the other metaknight players.

He only loses to pretty much Mew2King, and lost to Lee because he predicted Azen VERY well in those matches. He predicted Azen wouldn't sweetspot so he used ledgehop nairs. Azen messed up on his spacing and edgeguards often. Is this Metaknight's fault?

So in other words, you're saying that we should watch the ONLY Lucario with a high-success rate that has nearly a decade of high level smash tournament experience and emulate him?

For one, that's ridiculous. Second, I am emulating him. I'm picking Metaknight. I just go a step further and don't wait until I'm two games down in a set.

However, I still side with Mew2King that it's all just a brainwashing via a mob-mentality from his outcry to be banned.

You might want to realize that all of the #1 "don't ban MK" players main MK and profit from it.

 

[choknater]

Since when were player emotion and difficulty considered issues?

to OS: i give up, i have class. your sig is too good and true

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're also forgetting the fact that Fox was very susceptible to being comboed which also helped Link out greatly.
While Link could be ***** he had methods of knocking Fox off stage and keeping him of.
Difficulty wasn't just a factor.

 

[Asdioh]

Overswarm made a good point. I didn't read any more than just this page though...OS, you want MK to be banned, did you say as soon as possible, or in the future? I'm guessing it's the former, because

I originally thought you could beat MK.

And then you went on to say that he's basically way too good.

I agree he's extremely good, but I'm in favor of waiting a little longer before deciding on if he should be banned or not. The strongest argument for banning him , in my opinion, is simply the fact that there are SO MANY Meta Knight players that it has just become ridiculous.

Remember our moneymatch at WTON? They were recorded on Thinkaman's laptop, but I don't think he's ever going to upload that stuff :[ I would like to see those matches

 

[da K.I.D.]

im just saying that if ease/difficulty to use want a factor, than any fox would be able to 3 stock a link by waveshining him of the stage every single time

admittedly not one of my best analogys but it gets the job done

 

[Overswarm]

im just saying that if ease/difficulty to use want a factor, than any fox would be able to 3 stock a link by waveshining him of the stage every single time

admittedly not one of my best analogys but it gets the job done

This actually doesn't work. Link can SDI out of the waveshine and can also recover after he is shined off the stage.




Also, no, I don't remember our MMs at WTON. I don't remember much >_>

 

[Dojo]

OS really knows his ****...

 

[SonicX580]

I think instead of getting a ban why not put a handicap on metaknight?

 

[Asdioh]

Also, no, I don't remember our MMs at WTON. I don't remember much >_>

You showed me that Pirate Ship isn't as good of a Meta Knight counterpick as I thought, because his Dair has an angle trajectory that sent me directly into the front of the ship, for a free shipspike ko

I think instead of getting a ban why not put a handicap on metaknight?

You know, I've thought of that too. Either the % handicap, or like 2 stocks vs 3 or 3 stocks vs 4. But I figured nobody would agree to that.

 

[Espy Rose]

Everyone against MKs ban should just prepare themselves. It's gonna happen, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

I personally can't wait for a tournament without a single MK in sight.

 

[Dojo]

I think instead of getting a ban why not put a handicap on metaknight?

No this is dumb.
Handicaps would cause alot more controversy rather than just deciding to ban/not ban.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think instead of getting a ban why not put a handicap on metaknight?

because theres no way to figure out a fair and balenced way to handicap him.
theres also no feasible way to enforce something liek that

@OS in my fox link example the fox goes off the edge to shine link again, ive never seen a waveshine where the fox didnt do that so i just didnt say it. but my bad on the SDI thing. ill come up with better analogies nest time lol

 

[Overswarm]

OS really knows his ****...

I keep up to date and am a big fan of having universal knowledge. I study smash.

I also got to play against Sliq's Link with my Fox a lot.

 

[Ulevo]

Smash just isn't fun with MK being in the mix...

This comment has brushed on a thought of mine that's been lingering in my mind for a while.
A lot of reputable players have consistently said that using "fun" as a main deciding factor in competitive Smash is wrong, and simply scrub talk.

Now lets think about this for a second. There are two main driving factors for the people who play Smash; money, and entertainment.

If "fun" is not to be a deciding factor in how we construct the community, and money is the only factor involved, then exactly what is wrong with allowing Meta Knight to be the only dominating and viable force? In fact, competitively speaking, that is better than if other characters are to be used. If all players were to use Meta Knight, and only Meta Knight, no player would ever be at a disadvantage more so than the opponent, and tournaments would no longer be based on match ups or character bias. It would evolve around pure skill and nothing more. This is the ideal, perfect realm in which tournament goers wish to make the money in, and as long as it's simply to make some cash, there isn't anything wrong with the idea.

Ah, but that is not the case is it? People are not playing Smash just to make money. If they were, Meta Knight dominating the scenes and stagnating the game would not be problematic, it would be a blessing. Why choose anyone when you just want to make money? There is no reason (assuming Meta Knight is in fact the best character).

Over all, I find the entire topic very skewed. If you wanted to make money, and that was your only objective, you would be very stupid to be playing Smash as your only means of revenue. There are a plethora of other financial options out there that are significantly more beneficial then playing this game. Don't get me wrong, I don't think entertainment should be the main deciding factor on rules, bans, and other such details... Then it gets into "well what is fun?" and arguments ensue. But I certainly do not believe it is as cut and dry as many SWF members like to claim. OS's post is an example of this.

 

[Dojo]

I originally thought you could beat MK. I studied the matchup and character more than most, playing almost exclusively against Kel and Scarecrow, two Midwest MK players. At one point I played against Scarecrow, my lil bro, every day for at least 2 hours ROB vs. MK. It didn't help when I played DSF's MK vs. my ROB... I got wrecked. Unfortuantely, I couldn't jsut say "wow, DSF is so much better than me" because I did just as well against his Snake with ROB as he did against my ROB with his MK! To add icing to the cake, I did very well in MK dittos even though I didn't really play that character at the time. Was definitely a WTF? moment for me.

Then for a short while I thought it'd be like Sheik or Fox... but we're smarter than we were at the beginning of Melee. MK isn't dominating due to chain grabs, and our DI doesn't suck. He's not like Fox either.... Fox got destroyed as much as he destroyed others. Plus, Fox wasn't alone in his awesomeness. Marth, Falco, Sheik were all up there with him. And Fox's recovery was easily attacked.


Then my first MK tournament, I got 2nd in the custom stage tournament using SBR stages and got 5th in the actual tournament singles and 1rst in doubles.

I beat Anther, one of the MW's best, in the custom stage tournament, and lost to Joel, a G&W.

I lost to Anther on the last game of our set, 130% for both of us when I was hit. Joel beat me again as well, but I did better vs. him than I had ever done before.

I had picked up MK two weeks before then.


As time has gone on, all of the best players have either starting maining MK, picking up MK as a secondary, or leaving. Even Azen uses MK at the end of tournaments consistently now. Smash just isn't fun with MK being in the mix... I have no reason to play any other character, ever, or even learn more than 3 or 4 matchups. MK's playstyle is incredibly simple and easy to pick up, and you HAVE to play him to win on a national level.

Sure, I could main ROB and do well in the midwest... but if I ever wanted to travel I'd be screwed simply because I wasn't playing MK.

There has been a lot of talk of "counters".

DKs, like Bum, have been beaten. Inui's fresh and untested MK beat him.

Diddys, like Ninjalink, have been beaten. Inui again.

Snakes have been beaten and DSF, the best one, has picked up MK.

Lucario? Azen's the only one and he even switches to MK when push comes to shove.

G&W? This matchup has been increasingly falling in MKs favor as more info is discovered.

ROB is hard countered by MK. I invented the character, built him from the ground up, and switched to MK.

Yoshi? No. It's not even an option.



There's nothing you can do to make MK a bad choice.... so why try?

This is the post that really struck me.
If this thread has had nothing productive come out of it, it's at least switched my mind.
OS opened my eyes a bit with this.
Maybe the time's come for all of us trying to cling on to it, to do the same.


Mad props to you man.

 

[cutter]

This is what tournaments will eventually become.

LOL

 

[infomon]

This is the post that really struck me.
If this thread has had nothing productive come out of it, it's at least switched my mind.
OS opened my eyes a bit with this.
Maybe the time's come for all of us trying to cling on to it, to do the same.


Mad props to you man.

^^ seconded.

 

[Overswarm]

No this is dumb.
Handicaps would cause alot more controversy rather than just deciding to ban/not ban.

I tried playing with a 30% handicap on MK at a smashfest a little while ago... it actually helped. hahaha...

They couldn't combo me as easy at low %, and those combos generally did more than 30% anyway and put me in a poor position.

50% made it closer to even though, maybe slightly in their favor.

 

[Dojo]

People have already thrown that around a bit...

It'll never actually come to that point where it's tornado spam all day.
Idgaf what anybody says, it's not a single button that wins him the game.

It's the character as a whole.
He IS too good.


EDIT:

@OS
That's basically what I'm talking about.
Where would we constitute a % handicap on him to make it fair for other characters. Things like Falco's CG and lower % combo's become ineffective and they'd still have to open up new ideas and strats for this specific match.

What a fair % to some characters wouldn't be necessarily as fair to others, which opens up a whole new debate upon it. He just needs a strict ban, plain and simple.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

This is the post that really struck me.
If this thread has had nothing productive come out of it, it's at least switched my mind.
OS opened my eyes a bit with this.
Maybe the time's come for all of us trying to cling on to it, to do the same.


Mad props to you man.

^ omg 0.0 go OS

Also ulevo even if it is scrub talk it matters because tournaments need scrubs. Other wise there will be nothing but say 20 people who go for money not fun and that would be a pathetic prize pot.