The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Crow!]

So suppose MK is dropped from the tournament scene and it turns out that doing so was unnecessary. Is that so bad? We still have around three dozen other characters in the game. I would venture to say that Brawl doesn't NEED any one character in order to be a good game, and indeed loses very little by dropping one character.

In the case of MK, it may be a matter of addition by subtration; without MK to worry about, a lot of lower tier characters become much more viable options. I know Link would appreciate the reduction of pressure greatly; there are still some hard matchups to deal with, but they are all surmountable challenges for Link, unlike MK. (The Link boards list Link vs MK as 20/80).

 

[Tien2500]

I kind of think we've said it all though. You know? If we don't find some counters for MK or something within a few months or whatever he should probably be banned. I think thats the general concensus at least.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

So suppose MK is dropped from the tournament scene and it turns out that doing so was unnecessary. Is that so bad? We still have around three dozen other characters in the game. I would venture to say that Brawl doesn't NEED any one character in order to be a good game, and indeed loses very little by dropping one character.
.

If it's discovered it's unnecessary couldn't we just un-ban him?

we=smashboards community

 

[memphischains]

So suppose MK is dropped from the tournament scene and it turns out that doing so was unnecessary. Is that so bad? We still have around three dozen other characters in the game. I would venture to say that Brawl doesn't NEED any one character in order to be a good game, and indeed loses very little by dropping one character.

In the case of MK, it may be a matter of addition by subtration; without MK to worry about, a lot of lower tier characters become much more viable options. I know Link would appreciate the reduction of pressure greatly; there are still some hard matchups to deal with, but they are all surmountable challenges for Link, unlike MK. (The Link boards list Link vs MK as 20/80).

the whole idea is that we shouldn't have to ban anything. if we have to ban a part of the game to make it better, then why are we playing it?

and don't bring up items as a a rebuttal, because that is self explanatory.

 

[Tien2500]

the whole idea is that we shouldn't have to ban anything. if we have to ban a part of the game to make it better, then why are we playing it?

and don't bring up items as a a rebuttal, because that is self explanatory.

Because the game is a unique one and is worth playing. Super SF2 Turbo is a great game except is has one character that is broken. So eliminate the broken element to save the game.

I'm not saying he's as bad as Akuma. Just pointing out that some games have banned characters and are still worth playing.

Edit: Maybe two characters are broken in SSF2.

 

[salaboB]

the whole idea is that we shouldn't have to ban anything. if we have to ban a part of the game to make it better, then why are we playing it?

Because we like the general mechanics, etc. that it brings.

Would it not be worth playing if at the last moment Sakurai had chosen to drop MK instead? Since it would still be as worth playing as it is now, why is it possible it's not worth playing if we have to ban something to make it better?

That just means it has room for improvement and there's an easily identifiable bit of it that's causing problems.

 

[DRaGZ]

the whole idea is that we shouldn't have to ban anything. if we have to ban a part of the game to make it better, then why are we playing it?

and don't bring up items as a a rebuttal, because that is self explanatory.

But...items are banned. That in it of itself is modifying the game using a constraint within the game itself: item switch off.

Same thing with banning stages, modifying the game using a constraint within the game itself: random stage select and not picking the banned stages.

Banning Meta Knight is the same thing, modifying the game using a constraint within the game itself: don't pick Meta Knight.

And characters have been banned for more trivial reasons. SC2 banned all the console-specific characters just because they were only available on certain consoles (no, Link and Heihachi were not very good in SC2, and Spawn, while strong, was slow as hell).

 

[Boxob]

Yeah I agree with Dragz here, as long as the restraints are conditions that can be set up without actually hacking the game, I don't see how it's a bad thing. Banning a character to keep the game playable and enjoyable is not a bad thing.

 

[memphischains]

my personal preference is that he remains un-banned.

there are defiantly ways around him, and if we ban one character it would increase the already slowing brawl meta-game and cause a reaction. even though it may not seem it with a tier list already out, a huge ranking and tournament flow, and already propound players, the game IS still young.

we have done a lot of things within a year that should take MANY years. although things have already made a statement, we haven't given enough time to develop. we have about 4 or so string threads dealing with him that were just finished recently, and then Mew2King's tip thread.

i really have no reply for the item statements, however. that seems at a loss.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Because the game is a unique one and is worth playing.

That's like the nicest thing I've heard about tis game.. I agree, of course..

Banning a character to keep the game playable and enjoyable is not a bad thing.

unless tere isn't sufficient reasooning to it's banning--which is why the SBR is taking their sweet precious time with it right? To ensure that that is the only fair thing to do? well, in order to keep uniqueness and..fun.. in the game?

 

[Tien2500]

my personal preference is that he remains un-banned.

there are defiantly ways around him, and if we ban one character it would increase the already slowing brawl meta-game and cause a reaction. even though it may not seem it with a tier list already out, a huge ranking and tournament flow, and already propound players, the game IS still young.

we have done a lot of things within a year that should take MANY years. although things have already made a statement, we haven't given enough time to develop. we have about 4 or so string threads dealing with him that were just finished recently, and then Mew2King's tip thread.

i really have no reply for the item statements, however. that seems at a loss.

I dunno. The fear is MK could stifle the Metagame. There are already getting to be a lot of MKs at tournaments. And the metagame isn't *that* young. Its based off a similar engine to Melee. When Melee first came out people weren't so much looking for ATs. But when Brawl came out we already knew the basics of the physics engine so we were already trying to find the new wavedash as early as the demos.

 

[DRaGZ]

my personal preference is that he remains un-banned.

there are defiantly ways around him, and if we ban one character it would increase the already slowing brawl meta-game and cause a reaction. even though it may not seem it with a tier list already out, a huge ranking and tournament flow, and already propound players, the game IS still young.

we have done a lot of things within a year that should take MANY years. although things have already made a statement, we haven't given enough time to develop. we have about 4 or so string threads dealing with him that were just finished recently, and then Mew2King's tip thread.

i really have no reply for the item statements, however. that seems at a loss.

M2K is actually very selfish with his tips. It looks like he's giving you a bunch of good tips, but this is stuff only amateur Meta Knights would continually fall for.

He even admitted himself in the MK vs. Game and Watch thread that Hylian posted that he did not want that information to get out into the public. He just wants Meta Knight to stay around so he can continue making money using him. That's a biased opinion and thus not entirely reliable.

I'm not saying other people aren't unbiased either (OS comes to mind), but it's something to keep in mind, especially about why certain people are posting their opinions a certain way.

 

[Praxis]

Yes it does.

I would assume that if the HOBO11 results were calculated in the list (I'm not sure if they ever did get added) that the increase to Metaknight's points would be quite massive as he had like 5 placing in a large tournament. HOBO 11 was a weird experience. I remember talking with Xyro mid event and figuring out we had about 20 Metaknights in brackets and some more that didn't make it out of pools. It was pretty insane. I recall at one point there were five TVs showing metaknight dittos and even more than involved at least one player as Meta. I'm curious to see what will happen with HOBO 12 seeing as how they plan to ban Metaknight from it. It will probably be a much different experience.

Woah, HOBO12 has MK banned??

 

[DRaGZ]

Woah, HOBO12 has MK banned??

Yyyyyyyyup.

It's beautiful, isn't it?

 

[Tien2500]

It will be interesting to see if any other characters step up as a result of this.

 

[Boolossus]

I'm all for the MK ban. MK is too fast in the air and on the ground, has too much priority, has one of the best if not the best recoveries in the game, so good to the point that it's almost impossible to gimp him, 5 jumps and an up B with huge priority and knockback which discourages edgeguarding, is a small target with fast rolls and dodges which make him hard to hit, and a spammable tornado which the majority of the does not have an answer for.

 

[da K.I.D.]

my personal preference is that he remains un-banned.

there are defiantly ways around him,

the thing about this is that if you find a way to get around one thing that he does, he literally has 5 options to get around whatever you just did to get around his first thing.
perfect example.
i play lucario specifically for the Mk match, its to the point where any other character could beat my lucario just because he is conditioned spicifically to fight against MK.
one thing i find myself doing a lot is shielding a downsmash, and than jumping over another downsmash and down airing his head. but even though it works, i know anybody could:
up tilt
up smash
up air
shield
spot dodge
shuttle loop
and possibly grab
he could use any of these options instead of a second downsmash and i know that that would **** my counter attack everytime. so even if you find an answer to onething, that just gives him the chance to come up with 5-6 answers for your answer.

MK has all the answers...

M2K is actually very selfish with his tips. It looks like he's giving you a bunch of good tips, but this is stuff only amateur Meta Knights would continually fall for.

He even admitted himself in the MK vs. Game and Watch thread that Hylian posted that he did not want that information to get out into the public. He just wants Meta Knight to stay around so he can continue making money using him. That's a biased opinion and thus not entirely reliable.

I'm not saying other people aren't unbiased either (OS comes to mind), but it's something to keep in mind, especially about why certain people are posting their opinions a certain way.

quoted for trufax, ive been saying this for a very long time now, i thought he was mindgaming ppl to not ban him ever since he lost in that tourney to ninjalink

 

[memphischains]

....................

 

[Praxis]

Yyyyyyyyup.

It's beautiful, isn't it?

Wow, that's groundbreaking!

Is there a discussion thread about this somewhere??

I almost want to fly down for that. It'll be so much more fun...

Say what you will for whether there is a significant case for banning MK or not, fighting three or four MK's in a row is really freaking BORING.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Well there's a topic for Hobo 12 in the regional boards, just search for the thread. The problem with HOBO 12 is, I think that ban will scare off a lot of competition who would rather not fight in that atmosphere, so it won't be a completely accurate representation of a Meta-less Brawl. It's also somewhat of a bad idea to play heavily in a meta-less atmosphere if everywhere else you go, you need to fight him. You're denying yourself the experience. There's a double edged sword there, that I as a TO have had to deal with as well. The Wichita Bi-weekly this Saturday is running a ban on Meta for one week only to see what happens.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you should post the results here, in addition to whereever you would post them otherwise

 

[lordXblade]

There is no 100% effective counter against Magneto, hell, there isn't even a 2% effective counter against Yipes' Magneto? Do Marvel players ban Magneto? No, they learn to fight that ****. They put hours and hours and hours of dedication into it.

There is no effective counter to Chun-Li, hell, if you play MOV's Chun-Li, just put your stick down, cuz unless your name's Daigo or Boss, you're not gonna win. Do 3S players ban Chun-Li? No, they learn to fight that **** just like the Marvel players do.

Learn to fight MK. He's not ST Akuma. A ban is not deserved unless the next 3-4 majors have everyone in the top 8 be an MK, like it was with ST Akuma way back. People were talking about banning Snake before this, then people learned to fight him. Learn to fight MK, and, more importantly, learn to stop waving the ban stick.

 

[Salem]

You guys should ban snake instead, he pretty much owns MK last I checked.

and he has like a broken f-tilt, spammable grenades of doom (espcially in the hands of an advanced player) and his anti airs keep MK away from air attacking, so... what's your point?
why ban metaknight when snake is the guy who's cheaper and is pretty much gonna make you guys ban him instead, or we could ban them both, how's that for starters?

LOL!

really... wait for a freaking trip already dudes!

 

[Tien2500]

You guys should ban snake instead, he pretty much owns MK last I checked.

and he has like a broken f-tilt, spammable grenades of doom (espcially in the hands of an advanced player) and his anti airs keep MK away from air attacking, so... what's your point?
why ban metaknight when snake is the guy who's cheaper and is pretty much gonna make you guys ban him instead, or we could ban them both, how's that for starters?

LOL!

really... wait for a freaking trip already dudes!

Ummm I can't tell if this is a joke or not? Snake is at best neutral to MK. His anti-airs don't really deter MK and neither do grenades. His ftilt is broken but isn't much of a match for MKs laglessness. Besides there are at least 4 perfectly viable Snake counters (Pika, ROB, Falco, Dedede) where at best there are two or so neutrals for MK.

 

[DRaGZ]

There is no 100% effective counter against Magneto, hell, there isn't even a 2% effective counter against Yipes' Magneto? Do Marvel players ban Magneto? No, they learn to fight that ****. They put hours and hours and hours of dedication into it.

There is no effective counter to Chun-Li, hell, if you play MOV's Chun-Li, just put your stick down, cuz unless your name's Daigo or Boss, you're not gonna win. Do 3S players ban Chun-Li? No, they learn to fight that **** just like the Marvel players do.

Learn to fight MK. He's not ST Akuma. A ban is not deserved unless the next 3-4 majors have everyone in the top 8 be an MK, like it was with ST Akuma way back. People were talking about banning Snake before this, then people learned to fight him. Learn to fight MK, and, more importantly, learn to stop waving the ban stick.

MvC is full of broken characters, Magneto isn't the only broken one.

3S doesn't suffer as much because of the ability to parry. And if I remember correctly, 2008 EVO's final 8 of 3S was eight Chun Lis. Whoopie.

Additionally, there's also no effective counter to Yun or Urien (last I can remember). The ridiculousness sort of balances out.

 

[$ick]

QQ more Brawl noobs.

 

[LSDX]

 

[pastaboy]

There is no 100% effective counter against Magneto, hell, there isn't even a 2% effective counter against Yipes' Magneto? Do Marvel players ban Magneto? No, they learn to fight that ****. They put hours and hours and hours of dedication into it.

There is no effective counter to Chun-Li, hell, if you play MOV's Chun-Li, just put your stick down, cuz unless your name's Daigo or Boss, you're not gonna win. Do 3S players ban Chun-Li? No, they learn to fight that **** just like the Marvel players do.

Learn to fight MK. He's not ST Akuma. A ban is not deserved unless the next 3-4 majors have everyone in the top 8 be an MK, like it was with ST Akuma way back. People were talking about banning Snake before this, then people learned to fight him. Learn to fight MK, and, more importantly, learn to stop waving the ban stick.

ok i hate when ppl bring other fighters into play here but when we are talking about banning MK we look at him at the highest metagame-top players basiically
At the highest metagame for mcv and 3S the "broken" characters where able to be beaten, boss and diago they do play at the highest level of play, but also you have to see, they are playing other top chun li players. Do you see how that werks. basiicaly in brawl the top MK vs a top any character(except lucario) always has won and always will win.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I miss Yuna. His attendance madethis thread much more fun. Now you hear some slanderous stuff about m2K...do you really think he won't win tourneys, once MK is banned?

 

[Greenstreet]

He is skilled enough to keep winning, he probably just finds it a heck of a lot less work with MK.

Also:

HEY MCSNAPPLE!!!!!!!!!

 

[St. Viers]

^^I know, cause his DDD isn't good at all either >_>

seriously, about M2K. If he comes up with it, he has NO OBLIGATION to share his tricks. find them out yourself. You have the same access to the game that he does. Just think better.

 

[Deleted member]

It would certainly open up the tourney scene if he was, but I'm not sure if that's worth it.

 

[Browny]

It would certainly open up the tourney scene if he was, but I'm not sure if that's worth it.

Yeah its not worth it

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HNa11bpyN6s

How would we ever be able to see such amazing matches like that one if he were banned? wed be missing out on too much fun

 

[Deleted member]

That video is an example of why he should be banned. I disagree as it would undermine those who developed his meta-game up to this point, as well as the supposed freedom of the tourney scene. You could still play a match like that in a friendly, but imagine a new breed of Johns dedicated to *****ing about Metaknight being banned.

 

[WVI]

So, guys?

His name is Meta Knight.

Two words, no hyphen.

 

[DRaGZ]

^^I know, cause his DDD isn't good at all either >_>

seriously, about M2K. If he comes up with it, he has NO OBLIGATION to share his tricks. find them out yourself. You have the same access to the game that he does. Just think better.

That's not the point. The point is that he does not have the community's best interest in mind, he only has his own. Yet everyone loves to ride his **** when it comes to this issue. For what?

 

[Deleted member]

It is absurd to think that M2K's handing out of 'tips' to others will somehow solve the problem. He's a really powerful entity in Smash, but he's only one person and the advice he hands out is loaded, as he is winning tournaments with Meta Knight.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

yeah his advice is good, but then why wont he use those strategies to beat other meta knights? instead of using MK himself?

 

[Overswarm]

If you guys are gung-ho about banning MK, make or find a signature that clearly states "ban MK" and put it in your sig. The constant visual effect is a powerful one and makes me happy.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

hmm... metaknight shouldnt be banned