The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[ssbbFICTION]

WTF?!?!?

GTFO with that BS

who the hell has ever said that, nobody cares about their characters spot on the tier list. we just want our characters... as a matter of fact, any character other than mk to be playable at tourneys.

and for the record, we ban things so that we can see who the best at the game is, you cant do stuff like that when random crap is blowing up all over teh place, or when other things are otherwise impeding the process of figuring out who the best player is(overpowered characters)

THANK you. Haha. I don't even play Rob or snake or gw or ddd and I think its a good idea. Marth is even a bad matchup for me :\

 

[CR4SH]

and for the record, we ban things so that we can see who the best at the game is, you cant do stuff like that when random crap is blowing up all over teh place, or when other things are otherwise impeding the process of figuring out who the best player is(overpowered characters)

But really, if we just want to see who's best, shouldn't we all just go meta? That would really be the best test of skill this game has.

If we deny we want this simply so the game can be more enjoyable, we just look dumb.

This is scrub logic.

I mean, this is brawl. It's kinda a scrub game. (yeah I said it.) tripping?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He went MK against M2K too (though he said he did better with Lucario).

But ultimately, when it came to it, he switched to MK in order to win. He couldn't handle Lee's MK with Lucario, so when the chips were down he switched to MK. Sound familiar?

Didn't M2K admit that his Lucario was better against him and others, but compared to Lee who seemed to fair much better against his Lucario?

Even then he never had to pick MK, last life at high stock for both parties is a close match, he chose to.

edit: missed a quote,

You know how people say it doesn't count if you use ganon the 1st round against a scrub? Well its reversed. It counts even more if you use them towards the finals because if he didn't go MK he would have won a lot less money.

If what Dark Sonic is saying is true along with tid bits from what M2K has been saying.

Azen doesn't doesn't necessarily need MK to win against another MK, it's easier to use him, but not to the point of which it's pick or lose.

 

[Infinitysmash]

and dont put up 1 tourney series' results as some kind of end alll be all, because i (and im pretty sure 4-5 other people) could come in here and post their tourney results and it would show complete meta domination
for example: my last tourney, 5 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 8 were MK players and i think 2-3 of the top 3 finishers in my tourney for about 4-5 monts now.

Then do it. Don't say "I can do so and so" and then not back it up with facts. I showed you the results and a trend of the same players placing either at or near the top of tournament standings rather than just complaining for either side of the argument.

The reason I posted the Hobo results is because everyone and their cousin is spazzing out about Hobo11 like it's the end of Brawl as we know it when in reality there just happened to be a lot of good Metaknight players at the same tournament. The top placings players are also what most people consider the best players in the nation. How is it not logical for the "best player" to win a tournament?

Bring facts to an argument, not claims. If you want Metaknight banned then bring facts about why he should be and not "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

 

[Turbo Ether]

I mean, this is brawl. It's kinda a scrub game. (yeah I said it.) tripping?

You aren't being forced to play such a scrub game, to the best of my knowledge. Right?

 

[RadLink5]

Fine, ban him and see if you don't lose playership. God, why are hardcore Smash fans so extreme about everything? Like little kids hyped up on sugar. No other fanbase, for fighting games or otherwise, is so quick to toss around bans and lay out such extremely intricate rules I'm sure the creators could never even dream of. If this is really what it takes to make Smash Bros. competitive, then I have to side with everyone who says Smash Bros. should never be played competitively.

Edit: And I'd like to apologize for the generalization, I know some of you are actually DEBATING whether or not to ban Meta and not just demanding it like upset children.

 

[kakx]

I personally think the best matchup against MetaKnight is Pikachu (don't want to say). Banning him would be MK would absurd. Just because you have trouble fighting MK and not being able to read its moves or using him your first time and owning, doesn't mean you should ban him. There are always exploits. Although he does have a speed near characters in melee, You can always beat them.

For Example: I have a friend that plays way better than me in Super Smash. However, when he switched to MK to show how "god" he is, I basically got rocked the first few 50 times I played him. But over time, I learned the moves of MK and soon I learned some ways to beat him. MK is made up of aerials, if you can't fight aerials with him what do you switch to? You play "I love the land" and F*** him over.
His smash moves are fairly weak, but can rack up dmg. Until a specific percentage, then you'll die.

So banning him at this early stage of Brawl, is a bad idea. Soon people will find new moves like in Melee, No one knew Wave Dash, L cancel, Marth Double Fair, till 3 years after Melee was released. Give it time.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Didn't M2K admit that his Lucario was better against him and others, but compared to Lee who seemed to fair much better against his Lucario?

Even then he never had to pick MK, last life at high stock for both parties is a close match, he chose to.

Whatever Lee was doing was working (obviously), and in the end Azen switched to MK where it really mattered (it's quite possible that he could've lost the set had he not gone MK).

 

[CR4SH]

You aren't being forced to play such a scrub game, to the best of my knowledge. Right?

No, no, in fact I like it quite a bit.

Fine, ban him and see if you don't lose playership. God, why are hardcore Smash fans so extreme about everything? Like little kids hyped up on sugar. No other fanbase, for fighting games or otherwise, is so quick to toss around bans and lay out such extremely intricate rules I'm sure the creators could never even dream of. If this is really what it takes to make Smash Bros. competitive, then I have to side with everyone who says Smash Bros. should never be played competitively.

Well, smash, at it's base level, was not built to be a competitive game. Other games, like street fighter, and GG etc., have the benefit of a team of programmers who intend the game to be competitively viable. When you're playing a party game in tournament style, you have to do some after-market tweaking to make it (sort of) work.

IMO, smash is a really goofy game to play competitively. And it really does need quite a bit of fine tuning to make it competitive (except when goofy game glitches do it for you). But that's fine, because its a ****ing great time.

I personally think the best matchup against MetaKnight is Pikachu (don't want to say). Banning him would be MK would absurd. Just because you have trouble fighting MK and not being able to read its moves or using him your first time and owning, doesn't mean you should ban him. There are always exploits. Although he does have a speed near characters in melee, You can always beat them.

For Example: I have a friend that plays way better than me in Super Smash. However, when he switched to MK to show how "god" he is, I basically got rocked the first few 50 times I played him. But over time, I learned the moves of MK and soon I learned some ways to beat him. MK is made up of aerials, if you can't fight aerials with him what do you switch to? You play "I love the land" and F*** him over.
His smash moves are fairly weak, but can rack up dmg. Until a specific percentage, then you'll die.

So banning him at this early stage of Brawl, is a bad idea. Soon people will find new moves like in Melee, No one knew Wave Dash, L cancel, Marth Double Fair, till 3 years after Melee was released. Give it time.

Except that MK ***** face on land too....
Your friend must be pretty bad at this game.

 

[salaboB]

EDIT salabob stop getting to things b4 me lol

You had 4 minutes!

 

[Vayseth]

I have the feeling M2K makes it look like meta isn't all that good so he doesn't get banned.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Meta Knight has good match-ups, that's not in question, but is he unbeatable? Not at all. He just has good match-ups. A lot of people supporting the ban have already openly admitted it's so their character can rise up the tier list.

I'm in support of doing something about Meta Knight, but it's purely to do something to improve the balance.

Just to let you know, here's a list of my mains and what I think should be done with them in the next Smash game:

*Olimar - goodness gracious, he should be revamped to have the Pikmin stages actually affect his attacks that use Pikmin, and the Pikmin only getting up stages by dealing damage, but leaf Pikmin be terrible. Then he would actually reward good protection.
*Ness - probably fine as is.
*Kirby - actually, I would feel better about Final Cutter if it wasn't as spam-worthy. Mainly, just so his A moves are better worth using.
*Pit - FOR GOD'S SAKE, DESTROY THE ARROWS' FLINCHING AT LOWER PERCENTAGES. We don't need somebody who can get opponents up to 100% with cheesy ease.
*Diddy - if priority decay would be implemented so that he gets toned down, I'm fine with that.
*ROB - ditto.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Whatever Lee was doing was working (obviously), and in the end Azen switched to MK where it really mattered (it's quite possible that he could've lost the set had he not gone MK).

It's also possible he could have won the set without him, but of course, that's a hypothetical.

All we know is what happened and what the results were.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I find it funny how people with like, ten posts or less are coming in here and ignoring the entire debate we've been having the past 300 ish pages.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I find it funny how people with like, ten posts or less are coming in here and ignoring the entire debate we've been having the past 300 ish pages.

Unless your like me who changes pages settings and is only at 133.

 

[kakx]

Except that MK ***** face on land too....
Your friend must be pretty bad at this game.

Not exactly, My friend plays better than me and He usually wins when goes Lucario or Diddy, but some how I can beat him.

I think you just need to play more MK users constantly and Learn how they play.

 

[CR4SH]

Not exactly, My friend plays better than me and He usually wins when goes Lucario or Diddy, but some how I can beat him.

I think you just need to play more MK users constantly and Learn how they play.

I think you just need to play a good MK user constantly and learn how they ****.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's also possible he could have won the set without him, but of course, that's a hypothetical.

All we know is what happened and what the results were.

Yeah, but I'm saying that Azen simply didn't want to take that risk, and thus switched to MK because he believed he'd have a better chance of winning.

Oh wait...isn't that pretty much what everyone is doing and pretty much why we're even having this discussion?

 

[DRaGZ]

I have the feeling M2K makes it look like meta isn't all that good so he doesn't get banned.

Of course.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So banning him at this early stage of Brawl, is a bad idea. Soon people will find new moves like in Melee, No one knew Wave Dash, L cancel, Marth Double Fair, till 3 years after Melee was released. Give it time.

if you can prove to me that these things "will" without a doubt be found, than i will stop advocating the ban

 

[salaboB]

if you can prove to me that these things "will" without a doubt be found, than i will stop advocating the ban

I will do this as well.

But I need proof, not just opinions and vague hand waving about Melee finding things after people finally figured out it wasn't as shallow as Smash 64 in the technical department (Which is where Brawl started at).

 

[Infinitysmash]

if you can prove to me that these things "will" without a doubt be found, than i will stop advocating the ban

This is a prime example of someone who does not use facts to back up what they say and believe. Thank you.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If what Dark Sonic is saying is true along with tid bits from what M2K has been saying.

Azen doesn't doesn't necessarily need MK to win against another MK, it's easier to use him, but not to the point of which it's pick or lose.

It doesn't matter azen had to go MK or loose at that tournament if he didn't he would have won a lot less money (I bet M2K is thankful he went MK because they split it I think). You can watch the videos on my youtube account if you feel like it.

 

[kakx]

if you can prove to me that these things "will" without a doubt be found, than i will stop advocating the ban

Patience, you must. Beware of the MK young padawan, Soon it'll all be over. (:

 

[CR4SH]

I'm pretty sure I read that wavedashing was found months after melee's release. It just took a long time for people to really start using it.

 

[Punishment Divine]

This is a prime example of someone who does not use facts to back up what they say and believe. Thank you.

What the hell are you talking about?

@ kakx: I hate to break it to you d00d, but Brawl is a pretty shallow game. What's found is found. I sincerely, sincerely, doubt some game breaking tech will be found that doesnt also help MK. I also don't care about your friend. Both of you are probably decent at this game at best. We HAVE been studying how MK's play, and no matter how you play it's been discovered MK can adapt quickly and proceed to beat you 50x harder. o look up Hylians post about G&W in the MK forums

 

[kakx]

I'm pretty sure I read that wavedashing was found months after melee's release. It just took a long time for people to really start using it.

When you saw Young Ken playing in 2003 MLG, he was not using wavedashing nor L cancel.
2005, he came back with Double Fair + Wave Dash + L cancel. SHFFL was then put into place with nearly every move.

 

[Punishment Divine]

When you saw Young Ken playing in 2003 MLG, he was not using wavedashing nor L cancel.
2005, he came back with Double Fair + Wave Dash + L cancel. SHFFL was then put into place with nearly every move.

Yes, but we knew all that stuff going into Brawl. We started Brawl with information that took years to develop in Melee. And to top it all off, Brawl is much simpler than Melee ever was so chances are, what we get is now going to be little character specific tidbits that would never be able to remove MK from his position which is miles ahead of everyone else.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it think you proved his point kakx but i dont know if thats what you were trying to do

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^So. Wavedashing was indeed discovered very early on in melee's lifespan. It's just that nobody really used it/knew about it. It was discovered by some Luigi player (go figure) whe playing with one of his friends.

The more you know.

 

[RadLink5]

@ kakx: I hate to break it to you d00d, but Brawl is a pretty shallow game. What's found is found.

This is a pretty naive thing to say. No one ever thought wavedashing would exist until it did, no one ever thought there would be such a game changing glitch in Melee. But there was one. You really have faith that Brawl was designed so well that it doesn't have any game changing glitches? They're pretty common in fighting games in general.

And as for the glitch not helping Meta Knight, it doesn't have to not help him, it just has to help other people more. A game-changing glitch would toss the tiers all over the place. Wavedashing wasn't equally effective to everyone after all.

 

[salaboB]

This is a pretty naive thing to say. No one ever thought wavedashing would exist until it did, no one ever thought there would be such a game changing glitch in Melee. But there was one. You really have faith that Brawl was designed so well that it doesn't have any game changing glitches? They're pretty common in fighting games in general.

We just figured out Wavedashing was found pretty early, but nobody had realized what positioning with it could be used for.

So take everything we learned in Melee, and look at all the tricks we know of Brawl, and tell me that we've missed one of them that could be turned to a use for an AT that will whip MK.

Or tell me what you think the odds of finding one are (And why), when most of the ATs of Melee were found reasonably early and just lacking realization of their application. Again remember we now know what applications may be and every AT that has been found has been tested for any such usability -- and there just isn't anything significant.

 

[Dark Sonic]

This is a pretty naive thing to say. No one ever thought wavedashing would exist until it did, no one ever thought there would be such a game changing glitch in Melee. But there was one. You really have faith that Brawl was designed so well that it doesn't have any game changing glitches? They're pretty common in fighting games in general.

And as for the glitch not helping Meta Knight, it doesn't have to not help him, it just has to help other people more. A game-changing glitch would toss the tiers all over the place. Wavedashing wasn't equally effective to everyone after all.

Wavedashing was not a glitch. Wavedashing was also not that important for most characters (wavelanding was really important for getting back on the stage though).

It just so happens that the characters that benifited most from Wavedashing were already amazing without it.

I could very easily make this into a Brawl vs Melee debate, but I think I'll just leave it at that.

 

[RadLink5]

We just figured out Wavedashing was found pretty early, but nobody had realized what positioning with it could be used for.

So take everything we learned in Melee, and look at all the tricks we know of Brawl, and tell me that we've missed one of them that could be turned to a use for an AT that will whip MK.

Or tell me what you think the odds of finding one are (And why), when most of the ATs of Melee were found reasonably early and just lacking realization of their application. Again remember we now know what applications may be and every AT that has been found has been tested for any such usability -- and there just isn't anything significant.

Good point, but this makes me curious. Does anyone know how long it took people to find roll canceling in Capcom vs SNK 2?

 

[da K.I.D.]

and even if there was something like that, you cant GARANTEE that there is, so you cant say the ban shouldnt take effect just because you have a whim, that could happen... thats just not feasible.

you saying yea hes ****** now, and its pretty likely that hes going to **** for a really long time, but as long as theres a chance that something will be found in the future to make him a normal character, we cant ban him.

 

[CR4SH]

Yes wavedashing was a glitch.


Glitch according to wiki: In video games, a glitch is a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers.

Sakurai engineered wavedashing? Bull****.

Edit: at the very very least it's an exploit.

"an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers."

 

[DRaGZ]

I think it was about a year in. I can't be sure though.

Yes wavedashing was a glitch.


Glitch according to wiki: In video games, a glitch is a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers.

Sakurai engineered wavedashing? Bull****.

But he intentionally programmed that an airdodge going into the floor results in a slide. He even admitted in an interview that he knew of the existence of wavedashing and consciously left it in.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Good point, but this makes me curious. Does anyone know how long it took people to find roll canceling in Capcom vs SNK 2?

nope, just know that that junk was hard as all hell

EDIT: its funny though, roll canceling in my mind, is very similar to MK's shuttle loop

 

[Ken Neth]

I think you just need to play more MK users constantly and Learn how they play.

The only player I ever play with (besides at tourneys) is a MK player. Don't tell me I need to learn how metaknights play when it is you who says that meta is all aerials which implies that you think he doesn't have a ground game.

Also, about the "it took a long time to find ATs in melee" thing. It took so long because we weren't looking specifically for them. In brawl everyone and their dogs has been looking for ATs since the game came out with no avail. I'm pretty sure that we would have found at least something major by now if it was there.

But that is not the point of this thread so let's not get into that discussion.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly it doesn't take long to break games if the community knows what to look for.

Smash community was noob back then so it took longer.

Plus people hoarded knowledge so pro knowledge didn't become common knowledge until years after it was found out.