The Official SBR Podcast! (Ep. 4 - DL OUT!)

[The Real Inferno]

Im still eagerly awaiting the download. Maybe then I'll know why Umbreon seems so pissed off. I think I'll actually go to the effort of writing up a full review of the debate if anyone wanted to read such a thing. Since I'm on the fence anyway and being a former debate judge, it shouldnt be too hard to qualify things. You can't really declare a "winner" in a debate though. It's more like declaring the guy who argued better. It doesn't make their point right, it just means they argued alot better.

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah; a lot of peopel commented to me about how Panda seemed determined not to pick the pro-ban sign as an overall winner. They weren't really getting the point of a debate. XD

 

[The Real Inferno]

Yeah; a lot of peopel commented to me about how Panda seemed determined not to pick the pro-ban sign as an overall winner. They weren't really getting the point of a debate. XD

Well, alot of people are stupid. It is my understanding this debate was to show how the two sides fair in their argumentative data and see if it is sufficient to support one side more solidly than the other. It wasn't to go "Hey guys look the SBR is voting to ban/not ban Meta Knight! Lulz!" People read too much into things. =/

 

[dmbrandon]

half the people here didn't listen to the podcast. most people don't know what they're talking about at all, so this doesn't really surprise me.

I absolutely did. This whole argument is nonsense. He's not broken enough to be banned. Plain and simple. This is why our community is a joke. He's not some broken boss character, with some infinite chain.

You guys are turning this whole site into a laughing stock. And no, OS, I didn't. OS is trying to be a force in our community. Always has been. And the only way he'll ever be able to win a tournament, is with MK banned.

Everyone thought Shiek was invincible at first, now she's what? Third?

Come bring your Meta's to Atomsk's Olimar. He's the character that's going to be the best. Mark my words on that. Sig them, quote them, Send them to yourself in the mail.

OS's secondary argument is crap. Unless you're fighting a d3, your main should be able to take whoever you're fighting.

Taj beat Ken's Marth is Mewtwo.

 

[The Real Inferno]

How exactly are you a debater again?

Edit: Why am -I- not one?! o.O

 

[urdailywater]

I absolutely did. This whole argument is nonsense. He's not broken enough to be banned. Plain and simple. This is why our community is a joke. He's not some broken boss character, with some infinite chain.

You guys are turning this whole site into a laughing stock. And no, OS, I didn't. OS is trying to be a force in our community. Always has been. And the only way he'll ever be able to win a tournament, is with MK banned.

Everyone thought Shiek was invincible at first, now she's what? Third?

Taj beat Ken's Marth is Mewtwo.

Haven't listened to the podcast yet, but I have a feeling most points that were brought up were already brought up. I don't care what happens to MK either way -- but plain and simple, he is beatable. No person can deny that.

Hope the download link comes soon though, I'm curious to hear it.

Oh, and QFT.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Taj beat Ken's Marth is Mewtwo.

lolwut?

half the people here didn't listen to the podcast. most people don't know what they're talking about at all, so this doesn't really surprise me.

Stop making me feel bad. T_T

 

[AlphaZealot]

I said who wants to play dittos, the point is: you have MK, you can either play MK or play one of the handful of characters that run close to MK in a match up. So, you could switch to MK...and fight MK's with significantly more experience in MK dittos (say, M2K, who isn't going to lose an MK ditto, so why even bother trying MK), or you could choose, say, Diddy/Wario/Snake/etc, where the MK won't have the same level of experience in the match up (especially if you choose Diddy).

And Mow brought up Peach's D tilt. I asked why we were even comparing them. I believe I brought up that...MK + the range on his attacks = the size of Ganon.

Lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

I said who wants to play dittos, the point is: you have MK, you can either play MK or play one of the handful of characters that run close to MK in a match up. So, you could switch to MK...and fight MK's with significantly more experience in MK dittos (say, M2K, who isn't going to lose an MK ditto, so why even bother trying MK), or you could choose, say, Diddy/Wario/Snake/etc, where the MK won't have the same level of experience in the match up/ (especially if you choose Diddy).

Matchup inexperience counters everybody doesn't it? It's really not that great of an argument, since it assumes that the metaknight players are bad (bad at the matchup that is) and won't get better. Matchup inexperience is only a temporary advantage, and won't be fixing anything in the long run.

I mean, I see how this could be really usefull in practice (since for the most part it's...true), but this counterpick strategy will just become less and less effective as time goes on, and you'd eventually be better off just going with a MK ditto (assuming you are just as good with him as your other character) because the best you could pull with the other characters is a "slight" disadvantage.

Well, who knows. Maybe some new strat will come out that tips one of his closer matchups in their favor, and everyone will flock to that character to counter Metaknight and this won't be an issue anymore. It's unlikely that it will be a permanent fix (though it's possible), but if we can just have a string of temporary fixes long enough to find a permanent one (assuming one exists), then I suppose it's just as good.

 

[Praxis]

I absolutely did. This whole argument is nonsense. He's not broken enough to be banned. Plain and simple. This is why our community is a joke. He's not some broken boss character, with some infinite chain.

You guys are turning this whole site into a laughing stock. And no, OS, I didn't. OS is trying to be a force in our community. Always has been. And the only way he'll ever be able to win a tournament, is with MK banned.

Everyone thought Shiek was invincible at first, now she's what? Third?

Come bring your Meta's to Atomsk's Olimar. He's the character that's going to be the best. Mark my words on that. Sig them, quote them, Send them to yourself in the mail.

OS's secondary argument is crap. Unless you're fighting a d3, your main should be able to take whoever you're fighting.

Taj beat Ken's Marth is Mewtwo.

Amazing. You listened and came to this conclusion? You must be incredibly dense.

Nobody once argued that MK was unbeatable, as you imply. He's not an unbeatable boss character. He's a character that is simply unbalanced, having no bad matchups and arguably no even matchups except himself. Brawl has a much stronger emphasis on counterpicks, and on options (as mentioned in the podcast).

MK's got more options than any other character, and virtually cannot be put in disadvantaged situations. By the game's design, it's unlikely that any broken technique to beat him will be found- with his abundance of options, he's just going to keep getting better as MK mains learn what to do in different situations.

He breaks the counterpick system, and there's no reason to pick any character but him. He's a force of imbalance in the game. You may not agree with it as banning criteria, but to laugh the whole argument off because you don't agree is simply ignorance.

 

[Praxis]

So, you could switch to MK...and fight MK's with significantly more experience in MK dittos (say, M2K, who isn't going to lose an MK ditto, so why even bother trying MK), or you could choose, say, Diddy/Wario/Snake/etc, where the MK won't have the same level of experience in the match up (especially if you choose Diddy).

Matchup experience is a temporary crutch. You cannot count on it long-term. I know this better than anyone as a Peach main (as should you, as a Diddy main); people who don't know what to expect get utterly ***** by simple intelligently spaced dair spam and autocancelled fair spam.

I have more trouble with the people I practice with regularly than with significantly better people who don't understand the matchup well.

Remember, we have to argue assuming the highest level of the metagame. Essentially, if you're going to debate this, you have to assume that the Metaknight and the Diddy Kong know their opposing matchups equally.

And I honestly think that if the MK knows the Diddy matchup very, very well, as well as the Diddy knows the MK matchup, the MK will have the advantage in the end.

 

[Overswarm]

You're right dumbrandon. There's no way I could ever win a tournament without MK being banned. :rollseyes:

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

You're right dumbrandon. There's no way I could ever win a tournament without MK being banned. :rollseyes:

Freakin' nub.

 

[The Real Inferno]

The truth about Overswam has been revealed.

 

[TeeVee]

"Who wants to play dittos" was a terrible response. AZ's stated that:
A) Diddy has the best matchup vs MK in his view
B) It's neutral
C) People will learn a secondary character to fight MK

Overswarm's answer was essentially, "Can you give me one good reason why I should pick up and learn a character like Diddy, with all his complexities, just so I can have an even matchup, when I can just pick up MK with much less effort and have that same even matchup?"

To which the response was "Nobody likes dittos", a completely uncompetitive, emotional response. Really, really funny.

I didn't listen to the whole thing but I caught the end of it and I was thinking the exact same thing when I heard this part...

 

[Grunt]

He's not some broken boss character, with some infinite chain.

Yes he is.
they meant to make MK an unlockable character but got his code screwed up with the crap-tastic Captain Falcon.
looooool

 

[Jman115]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxis View Post

"Who wants to play dittos" was a terrible response. AZ's stated that:
A) Diddy has the best matchup vs MK in his view
B) It's neutral
C) People will learn a secondary character to fight MK

Overswarm's answer was essentially, "Can you give me one good reason why I should pick up and learn a character like Diddy, with all his complexities, just so I can have an even matchup, when I can just pick up MK with much less effort and have that same even matchup?"

To which the response was "Nobody likes dittos", a completely uncompetitive, emotional response. Really, really funny.I didn't listen to the whole thing but I caught the end of it and I was thinking the exact same thing when I heard this part...

Point is Metaknight is unbalanced in comparison to other characters. Every character needs a secondary for a few match ups,or would benefit having a secondary for a few match ups at least. MK is the only one that doesn't require one. And everybody who plays brawl shouldn't have to learn a new character JUST for MK.

The game has come to focus around MK which detracts from the fun and creates disinterest and lessens diversity more so than any other character by a pretty large margin.

I know it isn't necessarily a great reason on a competitive level. But tournaments are more fun and interesting when a variety of characters are brought to play and good matches are had. MK severely detracts from this aspect of fun because the game and tourney scene focuses around him so much. He has a great way of reducing variety in character and stage selection more so than any other character.

I would like to say this is enough to ban him, but i just simply don't know. Its hard to determine whats more important. To me, the game is more interesting, fun, and competitive without metaknight because he puts too many limits into play. But at the same time, if he is banned, we may not find the match up we are looking so hard to find. It could exist. I am skeptical, but it could.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Aaaah this topic isnt for actually debating about Meta, guys XD

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The podcast itself was about banning MK. This part of the conversation merely branched off of the podcast.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I absolutely did. This whole argument is nonsense. He's not broken enough to be banned. Plain and simple. This is why our community is a joke. He's not some broken boss character, with some infinite chain.

You guys are turning this whole site into a laughing stock. And no, OS, I didn't. OS is trying to be a force in our community. Always has been. And the only way he'll ever be able to win a tournament, is with MK banned.

Everyone thought Shiek was invincible at first, now she's what? Third?

Come bring your Meta's to Atomsk's Olimar. He's the character that's going to be the best. Mark my words on that. Sig them, quote them, Send them to yourself in the mail.

OS's secondary argument is crap. Unless you're fighting a d3, your main should be able to take whoever you're fighting.

Taj beat Ken's Marth is Mewtwo.

Yeah, it's clear to me you didn't listen to the podcast, or at least my segments. ALL these points were addressed. go listen to it when its downloadable

 

[Deleted member]

guys this one is my favorite:

OS: MK's dtilt outrages marth's forward smash

me: so does peach's dtilt, his forward smash isn't that much of a ranged move in this game

200 other people: he just said peach's dtilt outranges MK's dtilt! ROFL

I hate all of you.

taj beat ken when he was sandbagging like crazy. it's totally useless as a comparison in any way.

 

[cutter]

When OS was talking about the doctor analogy, he said something similar to this on the podcast:

"We've been waiting and waiting to find some way to beat MK and nothing has been found still... The anti-ban side keeps saying to continue waiting for the metagame to develop and find a way to counter MK. If we want to keep this community together and save Brawl, we need to take action soon. We can't wait too much longer... Time is running out."

This is just a paraphrase from what I heard over the podcast, but I really agree with that. (OS you can correct me if I paraphrased incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure you said something like this during your "a doctor doesn't wait to take action when symptoms develop" part)

 

[LeeHarris]

I absolutely did. This whole argument is nonsense. He's not broken enough to be banned. Plain and simple. This is why our community is a joke. He's not some broken boss character, with some infinite chain.

You guys are turning this whole site into a laughing stock. And no, OS, I didn't. OS is trying to be a force in our community. Always has been. And the only way he'll ever be able to win a tournament, is with MK banned.

Everyone thought Shiek was invincible at first, now she's what? Third?

Come bring your Meta's to Atomsk's Olimar. He's the character that's going to be the best. Mark my words on that. Sig them, quote them, Send them to yourself in the mail.

OS's secondary argument is crap. Unless you're fighting a d3, your main should be able to take whoever you're fighting.

Taj beat Ken's Marth is Mewtwo.

Didn't you say that Brawl had been patched about 2 weeks after release and made a huge list of things they fixed?

Lulz

 

[Overswarm]

When OS was talking about the doctor analogy, he said something similar to this on the podcast:

"We've been waiting and waiting to find some way to beat MK and nothing has been found still... The anti-ban side keeps saying to continue waiting for the metagame to develop and find a way to counter MK. If we want to keep this community together and save Brawl, we need to take action soon. We can't wait too much longer... Time is running out."

This is just a paraphrase from what I heard over the podcast, but I really agree with that. (OS you can correct me if I paraphrased incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure you said something like this during your "a doctor doesn't wait to take action when symptoms develop" part)

Pretty much. We've waited long enough. We're being told to wait until after the summer tournaments. That is unacceptable.

 

[dmbrandon]

Didn't you say that Brawl had been patched about 2 weeks after release and made a huge list of things they fixed?

Lulz

Brawl's American release in beta (2 weeks before the launch date) was different. I had it. And the japanese version. The game was patched and the released game came as what we had now.

Falco couldn't short hop double laser, and there was some other stuff too. Marth's damage was different on some stuff, like the dtilt. I forget the list, but I fail to see why this is important.

Everyone on this thread is a crybaby. Win, or don't win. The matchups you guys are talking about, are based off of 6-7 months of true competitive play. You guys are jumping the gun.

Once MK is banned, only D3 will challenge Snake. Then we're really ****ed.

Wario will be even more useless.

I love Brawl. But the way everything is turning out, makes me wish I had chosen Halo instead. v_v

 

[JesiahTEG]

Jesiah's conclusion after the podcast

In terms of what we SHOULD do...And by this I mean going by what is the right thing to do in regards to competitive gaming...We shouldn't ban MK. He's good, but not broken enough to warrant a ban.

In terms of what we should do for the community, disregarding what is TRULY right or not, we should ban him. Most of the community wants it that way, and even if he's not banworthy, which the anti-ban side did a good job of convincing me that he's really not, it would be best for the community if we banned him.

So by banning him, we're doing the community what we think is best for him, but disregarding the general rules of competitive fighting games. I don't mind though, since we're not other fighting game communities, we are the Smash community.

And Brandon, I see what you're saying about the community being crybabys...But that's our community. I think a lot of people don't want to put in the time or effort to beat MK, and it makes them hate the game. So even if he IS beatable, it doesn't matter. I think he's banworthy just to make the game more enjoyable to everyone and save our community.

 

[Grunt]

I see you have a large formation of multiplying, useless, cell mass around your heart.
however, I have no idea how to cure it so lets wait until a cure is found.

Lol something like that?

 

[Overswarm]

You're right. I can't believe I couldn't see it before.

Snakes will suddenly destroy ROBs and Falcos. DKs and Nesses will suddenly get beasted instead of doing decent.

*ow*

 

[dmbrandon]

In terms of what we SHOULD do...And by this I mean going by what is the right thing to do in regards to competitive gaming...We shouldn't ban MK. He's good, but not broken enough to warrant a ban.

In terms of what we should do for the community, disregarding what is TRULY right or not, we should ban him. Most of the community wants it that way, and even if he's not banworthy, which the anti-ban side did a good job of convincing me that he's really not, it would be best for the community if we banned him.

So by banning him, we're doing the community what we think is best for him, but disregarding the general rules of competitive fighting games. I don't mind though, since we're not other fighting game communities, we are the Smash community.

And Brandon, I see what you're saying about the community being crybabys...But that's our community. I think a lot of people don't want to put in the time or effort to beat MK, and it makes them hate the game. So even if he IS beatable, it doesn't matter. I think he's banworthy just to make the game more enjoyable to everyone and save our community.

This is the passive aggressive form of my argument.

You're right. I can't believe I couldn't see it before.

Snakes will suddenly destroy ROBs and Falcos. DKs and Nesses will suddenly get beasted instead of doing decent.

*ow*

You're a crybaby. I remember in July, when you said you ***** Metaknights. Everything you say is trash. If we meet, I'm pouring Lemonade all over you. Just you can have that ****ty sticky feeling all of your posts leave on us.

Kill yourself.

 

[Overswarm]

You're a crybaby. I remember in July, when you said you ***** Metaknights. Everything you say is trash. If we meet, I'm pouring Lemonade all over you. Just you can have that ****ty sticky feeling all of your posts leave on us.

Kill yourself.

From a nobody in Halo to a nobody in Smash. Will dumbrandon ever find a home?

Also, I've lost to only one MK consistently and that is DSF... who I did decently against in MK dittos. I consistently 2 and 3 stocked MKs I played simply because I was a better player. I did **** MKs. Doesn't change that MK is 222good, I just played the easy ones.

 

[Praxis]

Overswarm only mains MK to get him banned. ^_^

Which has proved his point VERY well so far, I feel.

I heard you took up that ideal as well?

Nice to see you guys are actually DOING something about what you believe in instead of sitting on message boards theorizing.

OK, seriously, how could you possibly know that? I just played MK for the first time in tournament two days ago and I haven't posted any of the experiences yet.

TERIOS IS A MINDREADER

 

[dmbrandon]

I just played the easy ones.

Game. Set. Match.

You lost to DSF, because he's good. You win against scrubs, because they're SCRUBS.

I hope you get cancer. Cheamo would be a good fit for you. You, and that Tiny head of yours.

 

[AlphaZealot]

This is just a paraphrase from what I heard over the podcast, but I really agree with that. (OS you can correct me if I paraphrased incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure you said something like this during your "a doctor doesn't wait to take action when symptoms develop" part)

I had a retort to this but unfortunately the debate ended and I couldn't say it, but its fairly simple:
Statement:
"MK is like a disease, you don't wait for it to kill you before you do something about it."
Retort:
"That's what Hitler said about the Jews."

It is a metaphor that sounds nice but is untimately a totally off base (one it assumes MK really is a disease and two that the ultimate conclusion from this specific sickness is death, not that you will fight it, recovery, and be ultimately stronger). For example, its assuming that MK will ultimately kill the community. There is no evidence of this. There are more tournaments in the last two months than there have been at any time in Smash history, heck, Ankoku is taking data in a 2 month period from somewhere around 80 or more tournaments. Never before has the number of tournaments been that high, and the only reason things are viewed as struggling is because of a the lack of national tournaments (which you can largely associate with a lack of MLG/NO FC). Also, it is this same lack of national tournaments that mean we can't pass judgement on MK because the evidence with the top players is simply not there.

OS: what is your tournament record against Vidjo?

 

[brinboy789]

Game. Set. Match.

You lost to DSF, because he's good. You win against scrubs, because they're SCRUBS.

I hope you get cancer. Cheamo would be a good fit for you. You, and that Tiny head of yours.

i agree with what you said but whoa...thats harsh o.o

 

[dmbrandon]

If taken out of context: OS hates the Jews.

Since our community is garbage, and takes things in such a way constantly, I imagine he'll be known as the Smash Racist for all of eternity.

In other news, I BEG you to ban MK. If you do, I will dedicate my life to playing in the gayest way possible. You think Plank is bad? I'm going to have MD/VA complaining about camping.

 

[JesiahTEG]

MD/VA does complain about camping lol

 

[Overswarm]

Game. Set. Match.

You lost to DSF, because he's good. You win against scrubs, because they're SCRUBS.

I hope you get cancer. Cheamo would be a good fit for you. You, and that Tiny head of yours.

Er... I beat DSF's Snake, and did decent with MK. I even won a few games, not having played MK seriously prior while he had been playing him a bunch. Metaknight is the variable, not our skill.

Also, AZ... I wish you had said it so I could have cackled loudly at you.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

You used such a poor argument that it has an entire article devoted to it.

2. I'm not commiting genocide

3. Your argument still doesn't change the fact that when we see a problem, we fix it BEFORE it becomes too large of a problem to fix. If you want to go back and forth on examples, go for it. I'll bring up viruses and quarantine, you'll bring up genocide and war, it'll all be great and pointless fun.

Fact is, MK is a problem and we know it. He's become such a large problem that those that deny his superiority are ridiculed openly and that several communities have a soft-ban going on right now. Others have a hard-ban. The SBR unanimously voted him as #1, and we actually had to decide whether he should have his own tier and basically said "we'll see if he keeps doing as well". Come on now, you know there is a problem.

 

[Mew2King]

maining a character to get him banned is not a good way, all that will do is give a reason for MKs higher placings: because he's so commonly used, obviously he's going to get higher placings. A lot of people do this, but don't acknowledge that flaw.

 

[ndayday]

A bit late to say this, but I must say that was a very good, well done podcast last night. It was well worth the 3 hours and 8 minutes (thats the time, right?) that I listened.

So, I'd like to say great job and thanks for the podcast, to SamuraiPanda, Youko, Overswarm, EdreesesPieces, UmbreonMow, AlphaZealot, and anyone that helped.

It definitly changed my view on MetaKnight, to one not that informed of all the points for/against him, to an individual that feels very informed on the subject.

So thanks a lot for a great show.

 

[Big Red]

In order for an analogy to hold any weight in a debate, you have to prove why it is true. Analogies are usually used to help describe complex ideas in terms that people can understand. I could just as easily say "MK is like Jesus, and he was killed even though he was good, so don't ban MK." Clearly this is ridiculous because I didn't explain how MK is like Jesus. So until you can tell me how MK is like a disease and will destroy the community if left alone, I'll be antiban...