The Official SBR Podcast! (Ep. 4 - DL OUT!)

[Praxis]

In order for an analogy to hold any weight in a debate, you have to prove why it is true. Analogies are usually used to help describe complex ideas in terms that people can understand. I could just as easily say "MK is like Jesus, and he was killed even though he was good, so don't ban MK." Clearly this is ridiculous because I didn't explain how MK is like Jesus. So until you can tell me how MK is like a disease and will destroy the community if left alone, I'll be antiban...

The disease analogy wasn't even an argument. Did you even listen to the podcast? It was a passing comment in the opening of the closing statements. He did explain the problem.

maining a character to get him banned is not a good way, all that will do is give a reason for MKs higher placings: because he's so commonly used, obviously he's going to get higher placings. A lot of people do this, but don't acknowledge that flaw.

How so? If someone switches to MK and their placings improve, does that not suggest that MK is the reason for such improvement?

 

[stingers]

Any word on when the download will be up?

I couldn't make it, sadly

 

[Deleted member]

if MK is a disease, he's certainly a disease we don't have a solution to. Let's say we ban MK. Unlike characters in other games where people try the banned character and say "lol this character is gay/unbeatable" there will still be players that beat Metaknight and will disprove to themselves that the character doesn't warrant a ban. I don't want to spend X years trying to get a character unbanned because we couldn't ban him WITH A LEGITIMATE REASON.

As soon as someone offers an irrefutable proof of Metaknight being broken, we can ban him, and people will understand why he's banned. If he's just really good and we ban him, future players aren't going to understand why. And I really don't want to see half tournaments w/ MK legal and half banned, cause then everyone will want to play the banned character and skew results even more (Diamond/Pearl Wobufett). Think this one through guys.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Show me your views!

Well, it seemed like a good name before I thought it through properly >_>

I wanna listen to this actually, I couldn't make the live thing.

 

[Big Red]

The disease analogy wasn't even an argument. Did you even listen to the podcast? It was a passing comment in the opening of the closing statements. He did explain the problem.

Panda (and a lot of people here) paraphrase: I was pretty neutral for the whole debate, but then OS gave that doctor analogy, and now I feel like I'm leaning towards pro-ban side.

 

[Tien2500]

Ummmmm... I don't think Hitler is an adequate analogy here. I mean first of all I kind of think its offensive to compare genocide to the banning of a character.

But moving on... The argument has never been that MK is so godly and broken that it is impossible to beat him. (At least I don't think so. I missed the pod cast though ) The argument is that MK is always at an advantage so there is really no reason for someone playing to win to play as anyone else and that will cause MK to be so overly abundant that it will ruin the tournament scene. I'm not saying whether or not this is true but *if* that could be proven then it would in my opinion warrant a ban even if MK is beatable.

 

[Deleted member]

I like how overswarm combats my facts with metaphors and people prefer the metaphors, lol.

 

[Lemon Drop]

Can't wait to to download it to hear the points.

 

[Praxis]

if MK is a disease, he's certainly a disease we don't have a solution to. Let's say we ban MK. Unlike characters in other games where people try the banned character and say "lol this character is gay/unbeatable" there will still be players that beat Metaknight and will disprove to themselves that the character doesn't warrant a ban. I don't want to spend X years trying to get a character unbanned because we couldn't ban him WITH A LEGITIMATE REASON.

As soon as someone offers an irrefutable proof of Metaknight being broken, we can ban him, and people will understand why he's banned. If he's just really good and we ban him, future players aren't going to understand why. And I really don't want to see half tournaments w/ MK legal and half banned, cause then everyone will want to play the banned character and skew results even more (Diamond/Pearl Wobufett). Think this one through guys.

The problem in this case is that, unlike Akuma's air fireball, there's no "one broken feature". The whole debate with AZ and Overswarm on the topic of MK's moveset came down to this. AZ wants OS to tell him what part of MK's moveset is broken. Overswarm believes there is no one thing, the problem is that MK has more options than anyone else in the game by far, thus allowing him to have an answer for EVERY situation only limited by the player's knowledge and reaction time. Problem is, it's hard to quantify such a thing, and AZ is expecting OS to say, "this one move is clearly broken".

Akuma, you can just point out that his moveset is a better version of Ken/Ryu's (IIRC), plus he has a ridiculously broken air fireball. MK has absolutely no easy way to compare his moveset like Akuma does, hence the debate, and hence why there will NEVER be "irrefutable proof".

 

[Skler]

I like how overswarm combats my facts with metaphors and people prefer the metaphors, lol.

This is because most people are silly/dumb. Watch.

Metaknight is like recreational drugs, he makes everyone happy except for those who don't use him.

Get at me.

 

[Praxis]

This is because most people are silly/dumb. Watch.

Metaknight is like recreational drugs, he makes everyone happy except for those who don't use him.

Get at me.

M.A.R.E.: To Keep Kids Off Metaknight.

 

[Deleted member]

Akuma, you can just point out that his moveset is a better version of Ken/Ryu's (IIRC), plus he has a ridiculously broken air fireball. MK has absolutely no easy way to compare his moveset like Akuma does, hence the debate, and hence why there will NEVER be "irrefutable proof".

Which is why he shouldn't be banned. Welcome to our side. Of course, if we do find something that breaks him, then we ban him. I think this should be much easier than what it currently is.

 

[zhao_guang]

We're what, 8 months into the game now? I'd say its far too soon to start jumping to the subject of ban. Meta Knight just had a huge boost in the metagame, and we need to focus on other characters instead of swarming around one character.

I'd give it more time, because someone's bound to find something. Give it maybe 4-5 more months before we start throwing the banhammer everywhere.

If we had to make a decision RIGHT NOW, I'd say don't ban him, because if the whole community is this unsure, it'd be safer to just let him be and work our way around him.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Concerning the Hitler analogy. There is an equation which states that the longer an internet argument continues, the probability that it will become about Hitler/Nazis/The Halocaust reaches 1.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

When's the DL going to be available? I wasn't able to make it for the event.

 

[Youko]

I tried to contact JV to see if I can get it uploaded to their servers, but he has yet to get back to me. I'd rather not resort to something like Megaupload, but if it takes too long for him to respond, we might have to resort to that in the interim.

 

[Praxis]

Which is why he shouldn't be banned. Welcome to our side. Of course, if we do find something that breaks him, then we ban him. I think this should be much easier than what it currently is.

Except that's just it. There's no "one thing" that is broken- it's simply that his moveset is so better in every way.

Consider a chess board.

Akuma is like having your side being made up of entirely Queens. Obviously broken.

Metaknight is like having the side remaining about the same...except pawns can move sideways, the Queen can jump like a Knight, and the King can move like a Queen. Essentially, you have so many more options than your opponent in every aspect of the game that, despite the fact that there's nothing gamebreaking that makes it impossible to lose, if you are a high level Chess player, you WON'T lose because you know how to change your game to take advantage of it.

This is probably a really bad analogy, but it's the best I could think of. There is no one broken aspect of MK, but as a whole, he has more options than any other character. Everyone else has some problem. ROB has blind spots. Snake has a poor aerial game. G&W has punishable lag and various tricks you can learn to deal with him.

MK is only limited by his player and matchup knowledge, because he has an answer to EVERYTHING. And while not inherently BROKEN, it breaks several aspects of the game (including the counterpicking system), imbalances it, and in general makes it more stupid and less enjoyable. Hence...I am in favor of banning.

 

[UTDZac]

http://www.fileshaker.com

Fast upload speeds, no ads, with limits of 10GB on files (massive). Also links to files are pretty, ie: www.fileshaker.com/SMYN_Episode_41 (Note this link doesn't work)


I'm really interested in listening to this.

 

[zhao_guang]

People are too impatient. The game's been out for less than a year, and people are already jumping to the conclusion that he is breaking the counterpick system. Sheik was the dominant force before people discovered Marth and then Marth was the dominant force. We just need to find the "Marth" of this game.

MetaKnight's metagame was found extremely early, and thats why he's been sweeping tournaments almost everywhere. I don't think his metagame will develop much, at least for a while. People just haven't shown enough attention to the other characters and haven't tried to advance the other 34 metagames.

Give it time. We have MK's metagame right in front of us, we just need to analyse it and work with EVERYONE to find the loophole. It'll take work, but it'll be worth it.

 

[Browny]

sure MKs metagame can develop further. once people realise his ftilt is almost as good as snakes, if not better in terms of speed and safety, and start abusing that he'll get better lol...

 

[kuenzel]

kuenzel why did you take mah avatar?! =(

Curses! I thought it was an awesome idea AND original! apparently thats impossible...

 

[Master Raven]

How so? If someone switches to MK and their placings improve, does that not suggest that MK is the reason for such improvement?

MK is the best character in the game and is easier to use in relation to most of the cast, so it's very obvious people will do better with him, regardless of whether he's broken or not.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

OK, seriously, how could you possibly know that? I just played MK for the first time in tournament two days ago and I haven't posted any of the experiences yet.

TERIOS IS A MINDREADER

I'm amazing. Maybe I'm just from WA and I saw you. YAY for lying in profiles!

Nah. The only good Sonic you have on the WC is Norfu. N' I Sawnik PAUNCHED him the last time we played. :3

I shouldn't brag about that though... it was long ago, wifi and basically not an indicator of skillz.


Anyway, iSpiN told me. I don't know how HE found out but yeah. We were talking about Olimar counters and I posted your match against Zori with the bomb and the Fox CG. Then he mentioned it.

 

[Praxis]

Oh. I told him yesterday lol.
You darn Sonics gossip as fast as you run (and die ).

 

[Steeler]

i hope the d/l is available soon...i want to listen to the part where someone mentioned my name. :D

 

[cutter]

On the chat there was a guy named Cutter... but I swear to god it was NOT me.

 

[smash superstar]

I think you guys should touch on how the community seems to be branching off into a Melee group and Brawl group next time =)

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh. I told him yesterday lol.
You darn Sonics gossip as fast as you run (and die ).

At least we're mid weight. A light breeze'll send you flyin'

Also Peach can't kill so what the hell are you talking about us dying. :3

Spoiler

I keed. I keed. Although I have started to pick up Peach. Do you guys have a thread on killing? I usually just bair, fair, ftilt and usmash but those aren't really cutting it.

 

[Deleted member]

the trick to peach is not to look for a kill move, but rather just maintain a ridiculous damage advantage which she's really good at. eventually, random stuff will kill, so just don't care, play your best and have fun with it. if you ignore peach's lack of kill moves and just play, you'll get your kills and you'll have more fun anyway.

 

[Praxis]

At least we're mid weight. A light breeze'll send you flyin'

Also Peach can't kill so what the hell are you talking about us dying. :3

Spoiler

I keed. I keed. Although I have started to pick up Peach. Do you guys have a thread on killing? I usually just bair, fair, ftilt and usmash but those aren't really cutting it.

Number of tricks.

1) Learn to sweetspot usmash.

2) Don't abuse Fair too much, it goes stale really fast and is a great kill move.

3) Something I personally do, is land jab-grabs (you can autocancel fair against a shield or a dair into a jab, and cancel the first jab into a grab), then mash A until they escape, and you get two free jabs on them as they slide out often. This results in refreshing most of your moveset. Don't even bother trying to kill with fthrow, it won't work below 200%.

4) At really high %, Nair kills xD

5) Don't try too hard. If you're not killing, it'll happen, you can rack damage up fast regardless.

 

[Tyrael64]

No download yet, then? Darn.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

the trick to peach is not to look for a kill move, but rather just maintain a ridiculous damage advantage which she's really good at. eventually, random stuff will kill, so just don't care, play your best and have fun with it. if you ignore peach's lack of kill moves and just play, you'll get your kills and you'll have more fun anyway.

Wow, we finally can agree on something ^_^

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

the trick to peach is not to look for a kill move, but rather just maintain a ridiculous damage advantage which she's really good at. eventually, random stuff will kill, so just don't care, play your best and have fun with it. if you ignore peach's lack of kill moves and just play, you'll get your kills and you'll have more fun anyway.

lol

That's basically what I do with Sonic. He kills best when you aren't trying to kill. I guess I just overlooked that that could be the problem with other characters too.


I've been getting kills more consistently. Although I still have "stubborn" stocks against my opponents sometimes. ^_^

Spoiler

10I'manidiots

 

[cutter]

If you have a character that has problems killing, abuse grab pummels as much as you can. Each grab attack counts as an individual move on the stale moves list.

 

[Praxis]

If you have a character that has problems killing, abuse grab pummels as much as you can. Each grab attack counts as an individual move on the stale moves list.

I just said that foo.

 

[Sethlon]

If you guys are still looking for names, how 'bout "SBR Fireside Chats".
You know, like Franklin D. Roosevelt.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

People are too impatient. The game's been out for less than a year, and people are already jumping to the conclusion that he is breaking the counterpick system. Sheik was the dominant force before people discovered Marth and then Marth was the dominant force. We just need to find the "Marth" of this game.

try again.

my 2 cents:
DONT COMPARE MK TO AKUMA, he's not THAT good. Saying "MK isn't as good as akuma, so dont ban him" is equally dumb. That's saying "sky's blue today", we know MK is beatable, nobody claims this besides anti-ban. We know he can be beaten, but we also know that a 50/50 is better than anything with a 40 in it.

Compare MK to Old Sagat if anything. But if you think Brawl is gonna last years on the competitive scene, i doubt it.

And unlike melee, where the characters sheik could dthrow constantly wouldn't have been anything even without sheik in the game (maybe slightly higher, but nothing dramatic), in brawl i've always felt like the disadvantage in a matchup is more important than in melee. It's not just MK, even basic matchups i feel this way about (for me, it's Lucario<marth, but whatever). It's easier to see something coming, it's easier to play rock, paper, scissors and it's a lot easier to exploit rock, paper, scissors, dynamite in a matchup. Sure, cut the dynamite with the scissors, but sometimes that string is really short.

Spoiler

If this argument gets used in any way to exclusively argue against MK besides something on the lines of "disadvantages suck" >_>

 

[Exia 00]

****, I cant believe i missed it........

 

[The Pope]

When will the download be up?

 

[Deleted member]

my 2 cents:
DONT COMPARE MK TO AKUMA, he's not THAT good. Saying "MK isn't as good as akuma, so dont ban him" is equally dumb. That's saying "sky's blue today", we know MK is beatable, nobody claims this besides anti-ban. We know he can be beaten, but we also know that a 50/50 is better than anything with a 40 in it.

ooh, you're intelligent. Allow me to share my views with you then. This is a post of mine in the SBR that you would otherwise not have access to:

I have proved two criteria that require a ban:

1. character somehow breaks smash game play
2. character is unbeatable

only 1 of the 2 being required. Metaknight can be beaten, so that nullifies #2. Metaknight does not disable the key aspects that encompass smash game play, such as free movement, the ability to attack, defend, DI, or outplay your opponent, so he fits neither criteria.

While I'm at it, criterion #1 was the reason I wanted Wobbling banned, as it effectively DOES break smash game play.

smash game play does not encompass countering, as countering is not an element of smash game play, but rather countering is an element of our tournament format. the lack of counters does not leave MK to break smash game play, although I do believe him to have no counters.

edit: akuma breaks game play in his game, removing the ability to attack, thus warranting a ban. akuma actually fits both criteria.