The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Kinzer]

No good player ever gets hit by that Up Smash unless they seriously messed up in some place like recovery.

His aerial game is fine, but it isn't outstanding, again I'm trying to point out that his problem is that he has nothing that's broken about him to take advantage of... well except maybe his recovery, have you seen what he could do? Zap Jump, Magnet Pull, blah blah blah. Hell I'd kill people to have that ability to jump from place to place like the movie Jumper.

Hmm... are only book titles underlined or can I do that with movie titles too...?

 

[Frown]

Recovery isn't very important in this game. 80% of the characters can almost always make it back safely.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

For Ness and Lucas, besides the glaring flaw of grab releases, have mostly situational moves. I find Ness's moves to be slightly less situational, and more rewarding over all. It's easier to take advantage of his aerial game then Lucas's ground game.

 

[Deleted member]

Marik shut up. <3
Lol
Seriously, yoshi isnt good, bwett is really good, im pretty sure he agrees with me about yoshis position, as well as green ace.
Dont name drop bwett so much homie.
Yoshi is not good XD

PT doesn't destroy yoshi, in fact Yoshi ***** squirtle so much with his grab releases.

Yoshi vs Falco isn't that bad either, he can 0 to death him and has a lot of stuff with the grab releases, I still think Falco has the advantage but not much.
He has bad match-ups but I think all of them are winnable ( not sure on Wolf vs Yoshi, need to play that more)

Uhh i think PT vs yoshi is even, ive played typh but not in tourny so dunno.
Anyways, marc, im just reaaaally good at the falco matchup, its prolly like 40:60, im sure youd beat me bad if you had more yoshi experience.

All of his matchups are winnable, but im not sure if he should move up, probably above lucas tho.

 

[Kinzer]

Recovery isn't very important in this game. 80% of the characters can almost always make it back safely.

Okay then.

I rest my case: Lucas isn't (total?) garbage but he can give you enough of a tickle for you to sneeze uncontrollably.

 

[Nestec]

It's also spectulated that Samus goes 65:35 to Yoshi, indictaing a hard-counter.

65:35 is a hard-counter? No, more like soft-counter. Hard-counter is 70:30 and up.

Lucas is a really really horrible character while Ness is decent, imo Lucas should be between the 4th worse characters, he has a hard time racking up damage, no safe approaches, can't camp much and as you said all of his killing moves are predictable. ( not to mention he has HORRIBLE match-ups with almost all the cast)

Lol, okay, I really don't think Lucas is that bad. Fsmash is a pretty reliable kill move, he stops a lot of camping games, and an AMAZING recovery. Yeah, he still sucks. But he's better than Link, Ganon, Samus, Falcon, and Jigglypuff.

I'd go into detail, but I have no intention of arguing with some angry Ness player that thinks different.

Veeeeeery smart of you. ^_^

King Dedede should be A-Tier, not S.

THANK YOU.

---

EDIT: Just thought I'd write out what I believe the next tier list should look like. {} indicates ordering that I'm not sure of.

S-Tier: MK, Snake, {Wario, Diddy), Falco
A-Tier: {ICs, Dedede, Marth}, Pikachu, GaW, {Olimar, R.O.B, Kirby, ZSS}
B-Tier: Toon Link, Lucario, DK, Pit
C-Tier: (Peach, Luigi, Sheik, Wolf, Fox}, PT
D-Tier: Sonic, {Mario, Bowser, Ness}, Zelda
E-Tier: {Yoshi, Ike}, Lucas, Jigglypuff, Link
F-Tier: Samus, {Falcon, Ganondorf}

I'm not 100% confident on it, so dammit don't flame me.

 

[Vermy]

EDIT: Just thought I'd write out what I believe the next tier list should look like. {} indicates ordering that I'm not sure of.

S-Tier: MK, Snake, {Wario, Diddy), Falco
A-Tier: {ICs, Dedede, Marth}, Pikachu, GaW, {Olimar, R.O.B, Kirby, ZSS}
B-Tier: Toon Link, Lucario, DK, Pit
C-Tier: (Peach, Luigi, Sheik, Wolf, Fox}, PT
D-Tier: Sonic, {Mario, Bowser, Ness}, Zelda
E-Tier: {Yoshi, Ike}, Lucas, Jigglypuff, Link
F-Tier: Samus, {Falcon, Ganondorf}

I'm not 100% confident on it, so dammit don't flame me.

Samus > Link and Jiggs
Ike > Yoshi and Zelda
Bowser > Mario
Lucario > Toon Link

If this is a tier list based on each characters current metagame, tourney results and matchups, no objections from me. Looks good.

 

[PKNintendo]

Samus > Link and Jiggs
Ike > Yoshi and Zelda
Bowser > Mario
Lucario > Toon Link

If this is a tier list based on each characters current metagame, tourney results and matchups, no objections from me. Looks good.

Agree's with both men.

 

[Yoshi6852]

I never got this thing. Metaknight is considered the best for simmilar reasons to why pit is cheep.

1. He can fly somereason that made pit cheep why not metaknight
2. Gliding
3. Spammy nutral A like pit
4. B attack much worse that angel ring

Metaknight is very good but I dont think people can call pit cheep without calling metaknight cheep. I really wont bother to reply to the 1000 hate comments I'll get from this so i'll say this i'm intitled to my opinion.

Also I think people are underestimating the power of Ike and Marth's counter. A person who is good with counter is unstopable.

Lastly this one i'm really curious about how the the world did Wario get into S tier... what is good about him. He's not that fast, Crappy jump (not including jumping off the bike/ fart) not very powerful not that hevy why did people vote him in?

 

[Kinzer]

^^

Except Ike's counter is nowhere near as fast enough as it needs to be to act like a combo-breaker, and is used for punishing predictable opponents... and Ike already does that with other moves, so it's almost useless.

Marth's is different, his can be used to fend off opponents, the only trouble is that if he uses it at the wrong time it leaves him very open to be punished. He has other moves that can keep the opponents away/off of him and are not as risky if whiffed.

About Wario... considering that he IS heavy, combined with his floatiness and recovery, he can live to quit a %age, and he has kill power to boot with his aerial agility, so it's like Jigglypuff but better and minus the problems.

And Pit... Should I get to how MK has much more range on his attacks, more speed, a less interceptable recovery, and how he is his own projectile?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I never got this thing. Metaknight is considered the best for simmilar reasons to why pit is cheep.

1. He can fly somereason that made pit cheep why not metaknight
2. Gliding
3. Spammy nutral A like pit
4. B attack much worse that angel ring

Metaknight is very good but I dont think people can call pit cheep without calling metaknight cheep. I really wont bother to reply to the 1000 hate comments I'll get from this so i'll say this i'm intitled to my opinion.

Also I think people are underestimating the power of Ike and Marth's counter. A person who is good with counter is unstopable.

Lastly this one i'm really curious about how the the world did Wario get into S tier... what is good about him. He's not that fast, Crappy jump (not including jumping off the bike/ fart) not very powerful not that hevy why did people vote him in?

you must be new to smash... cus this post is awful...


thanks in advance to everyone that attempts to educate this guy

 

[:mad:]

I never got this thing. Metaknight is considered the best for simmilar reasons to why pit is cheep.

1. He can fly somereason that made pit cheep why not metaknight
2. Gliding
3. Spammy nutral A like pit
4. B attack much worse that angel ring

Metaknight is very good but I dont think people can call pit cheep without calling metaknight cheep. I really wont bother to reply to the 1000 hate comments I'll get from this so i'll say this i'm intitled to my opinion.

Also I think people are underestimating the power of Ike and Marth's counter. A person who is good with counter is unstopable.

Lastly this one i'm really curious about how the the world did Wario get into S tier... what is good about him. He's not that fast, Crappy jump (not including jumping off the bike/ fart) not very powerful not that hevy why did people vote him in?

... I can't help but think this is a troll.

 

[Kinzer]

Am I the only person who wants to actually make posts to try and help the guy instead of making posts for the +1 and take steps backwards?

Seriously, people talking like this for example is what gets Sonic in the 5th worst character spot, and it takes time to clean up other peoples' messes.

I'm looking especially at you KID, since all you do is play the game but hardly any research. Telling the guy how his posts is awful yet explain nothing as to why it might be.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its so hard to tell these days...

i think hes just nubby based on what i perceive to be honesty in his claims just cause of the pit references


Kinzer.
1. what does my amount of research have to do with the current subject? but either way, I actally do massive amounts of research. Ive forgotten more about this game than you ever knew.

2. Ive helped tons of people. yourself included, come to a correct understanding of this game, and im also a very frequent poster on the ask a question get an answer thread. just cus im too lazy to do it this one time doesnt mean jack. Why dont you take a look at the full body of every thing ive done instead of just the one or two posts where im not doing it exactly the way you think it should be done.

3. if he had taken a few minutes to read up and figure the information out for himself, he wouldnt have to say such uninformed stuff on this thread. why does he have to have it spoonfed to him, when he could easily just lurk a bit and figure the answers out on his own. or even jsut ask the question in the correct places.

tl;dr. get off my back beeyotch

 

[Dark.Pch]

Am I the only person who wants to actually make posts to try and help the guy instead of making posts for the +1 and take steps backwards?

Seriously, people talking like this for example is what gets Sonic in the 5th worst character spot, and it takes time to clean up other peoples' messes.

I'm looking especially at you KID, since all you do is play the game but hardly any research. Telling the guy how his posts is awful yet explain nothing as to why it might be.

Dude, this is smashboards. it is filled with tools and duncecaps. You should know better than to ask a question like that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you cant believe how funny I find the post above this one

 

[Dark.Pch]

I wonder why?

(waits for typical post towards me from a member of this site)

 

[Kinzer]

Kinzer.
1. what does my amount of research have to do with the current subject? but either way, I actally do massive amounts of research. Ive forgotten more about this game than you ever knew.

2. Ive helped tons of people. yourself included, come to a correct understanding of this game, and im also a very frequent poster on the ask a question get an answer thread. just cus im too lazy to do it this one time doesnt mean jack. Why dont you take a look at the full body of every thing ive done instead of just the one or two posts where im not doing it exactly the way you think it should be done.

3. if he had taken a few minutes to read up and figure the information out for himself, he wouldnt have to say such uninformed stuff on this thread. why does he have to have it spoonfed to him, when he could easily just lurk a bit and figure the answers out on his own. or even jsut ask the question in the correct places.

tl;dr. get off my back beeyotch

1. Try me, I have a lot of time at my hands and I know enough about this game to at least get around with anything and everything, plus since Sonic sucks monkey balls I HAVE to know everything or I'll get caught off-guard and lose horribly when I should only lose by last stock last hit at the worst.

2. I don't recall getting anything from you except maybe how FTilt is guaranteed on Ness after a ground-break. And if you're so confident that you've contributed things why don't you bring them up here for me to see, or whenever you get challenged instead of accusing me? I'm pretty secure about my take on almost any matter, how about you?

3. Not everyone is willing to do work, just as you admitted how you were lazy in #2 though, such a predicament.

tl;dr You're going to have bite to back-up your bite if you want your bark to be taken seriously.

@Pch - Agreed... somewhat... I've met some decent people... at least they make it worth it to go out of my way.

 

[aeghrur]

Kinzer, you're trying to help people in the wrong thread.
This is the ban MK thread otherwise known as the +1 your post count thread.
If you want to help people, go to FAQ threads.

 

[:mad:]

This is the ban MK thread otherwise known as the +1 your post count thread.

» Smash World Forums » Super Smash Bros. Brawl » Brawl Tactical Discussion » The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

I wasn't aware this was both threads at once.

 

[M.K]

There is no legitimate reason to respond to posts like the misinformed one above unless you are:

A) Sincerely trying to help the person understand the game
B) Tend to be an immature little cretin on the internet.
C) Pity others for the benefit of your own self-esteem increase
D) Feel the need to comment immaturely to get the +1 on your Post Count and the perceived respect that comes with a high post count.

Take your pick.
Seriously, It was only funny to see people post sarcastic, immature responses the first few times. Now, I read them, and I groan, because your jokes aren't funny, and they don't serve a purpose. It only makes the whole "ZOMG Smashboards = elitist gamer nubs" perception ever more apparent to a Guest Reader.


....hey, by the way, if you happen to read this sentence, be prepared. *looks down*

-_- Then again, what should I seriously be expecting out of Smashboards? This isn't a prestigious school or a courtroom, I can only expect that those who are immature are completely incapable of controlling their own juvenile needs to mock other people on the internet. ._.

 

[Yoshi6852]

FYI NO I'M NOT NEW TO SMASH I'VE BEEN PLAYING IT SENCE 64 I'M NEW TO SMASH BOARDS AND IF IT WERNT FOR PAHNTOM WINGS AND HIS STUFF I WOULD NOT EVEN BE HERE YES I KNOW THIS IS ALL IN CAPS AND I TOLD YOU I AM INTITLED TO MY OWN OPINION WHY DO I FEAL THAT KINZER IS THE ONLY ONE WHO ACTUALLY RESPECTS THAT.

K.I.D you are awhare it's a vidoe game you don't research a video game you play a video game! I destroy most people I fight online or offline (unless there is too much lag) and guess what I use mostly bottome tier. Ike kicks some serious butt, Captin Falcon, is captin falcon. Gandadorf is pretty good. As for metaknight i'm not that good with him. It's a game and I thought this the moment I went in to this thred you can't say who is good and who is bad because any player can be good with a chracter and any player can be bad with that same chracter. I would like to call this quits and end this argument but I have a fealing that's not going to happen.

Oh and thank you Kinzer for actually responding wiht valid points over everyone else and thank you for telling me why wario is in the top (but I still think he's bad but at least I see why he is considered good)

 

[Kinzer]

FYI NO I'M NOT NEW TO SMASH I'VE BEEN PLAYING IT SENCE 64 I'M NEW TO SMASH BOARDS AND IF IT WERNT FOR PAHNTOM WINGS AND HIS STUFF I WOULD NOT EVEN BE HERE YES I KNOW THIS IS ALL IN CAPS AND I TOLD YOU I AM INTITLED TO MY OWN OPINION WHY DO I FEAL THAT KINZER IS THE ONLY ONE WHO ACTUALLY RESPECTS THAT.

K.I.D you are awhare it's a vidoe game you don't research a video game you play a video game! I destroy most people I fight online or offline (unless there is too much lag) and guess what I use mostly bottome tier. Ike kicks some serious butt, Captin Falcon, is captin falcon. Gandadorf is pretty good. As for metaknight i'm not that good with him. It's a game and I thought this the moment I went in to this thred you can't say who is good and who is bad because any player can be good with a chracter and any player can be bad with that same chracter. I would like to call this quits and end this argument but I have a fealing that's not going to happen.

Oh and thank you Kinzer for actually responding wiht valid points over everyone else and thank you for telling me why wario is in the top (but I still think he's bad but at least I see why he is considered good)

Try not to take too much offense, it's the internet/the norm.

99.9% of People don't take Wi-Fi seriously, find something else to give you more credibility. Just a pro-tip.

I try... and anyway you're entitled to your opinion... just make sure that you don't try to force it on other people, and with those who are too stubborn, just agree to disagree, I can only hope I've enlightened you as to a couple of reasons as to why most of the top-notch players refer to Wario as a great competitive character.

 

[Yoshi6852]

Thanks. But honestly it's a game i could care less about "credibility" i'm just anoyed with K.I.D had I wanted your help I would have asked or at least you could have made it come off nicer.

I guess i'm used to gamefacts while they have the most anoying TOS it's less of a compedetive site where people respect opinions a little better as a matter of fact...

 

[M.K]

Thanks. But honestly it's a game i could care less about "credibility" i'm just anoyed with K.I.D had I wanted your help I would have asked or at least you could have made it come off nicer.

I guess i'm used to gamefacts while they have the most anoying TOS it's less of a compedetive site where people respect opinions a little better as a matter of fact...

For any information that you may be stuck on, or for information that you would like to learn more about (why characters are *insert tier placement here*, advance techniques, match ups), you can always check the Super Smash Bros. Wiki:

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

It has alot of useful information, and a quick read-through of the different character pages can give you a basic idea of the metagame of Brawl. Part of the reason to browse the boards in general is also because each thread you read only adds to the knowledge you have about the metagame and the tournament scene. So, while Ike and Captain Falcon are respectable characters accompanied by their various perks, they perform rather poorly in comparison to such characters as Meta-Knight, Falco, and Diddy Kong in the various tournaments held around the United States.

 

[SuSa]

We don't care how you play, how your friends play, or how anyone that you may be facing online plays.

There is a vast difference between the pro's and "the noobs" of Smash.

Also Gamefacts or Gamefaqs? I know the latter is generally filled with the less competitive players.

Also you are posting on a site that is (arguably) mostly for the competitive side of Smash and you are in a topic that concerns competitive thoughts. So while you may have your opinion, if you don't care for the competitive side then this topic isn't for you.

Figured telling you this would make your life a bit easier.

EDIT:
Meta-Kirby, I love your signature.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

It's a game and I thought this the moment I went in to this thred you can't say who is good and who is bad because any player can be good with a chracter and any player can be bad with that same chracter.

Oh lordy.

You might want to run for it while you can.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Don't bash the Yoshi guy too much, folks. We were all new to competitive Smash at some point. Heck, just four months ago I used to think that ZSS' recovery was easy to gimp.

To answer the question of why MK > Pit:

MK has a recovery that's much harder to gimp, a much better gimping game than Pit, his attacks are generally faster in terms of start-up and ending lag, he has more reliable kill moves than Pit does and he's just generally better. The one thing that Pit does better is his weight, which isn't too big an issue because MK's momentum cancel is far better.

 

[vato_break]

Do you guys think the choice of characters is influenced by the tier list at mid-level play? Just wondering what you guys think..

 

[Jupz]

Well most people play the game at the medium level so I would guess so ^_^

 

[vato_break]

Yeah i think it does too but, to a certain extent. I think the tier list doesn't influence it as heavily as it does compared to higher levels of play...i was just really wondering other peoples opinions..

 

[llamapaste]

I'm a medium level player at the moment and I want to enter some tournaments. Reading Vato Break's last two posts I agree that it definately affects the mid levels of play. (I look at the tier list and it makes me feel like I have more skill if I play a better character) But most people at my skill level don't look at the tier list so it's affect is minimal.

 

[choknater]

it's funny

i can literally feel the difference of power when i play sheik/zelda or ness

as opposed to playing snake/mk

i know the balance issue isnt HUUUUGE

but when it comes to tournaments and competition and actually winning

its definitely there ahah. snake/mk are amazing

 

[Yoshi6852]

So wait how exactly is the teir list developed? Based on tornement wins or are people voted in?

 

[gm jack]

So wait how exactly is the teir list developed? Based on tornement wins or are people voted in?

The smash back room votes on it. Goes on character potential at the top of the metagame and tournament results. Results are key though. Most that drop have falling results, those going up tend to have people placing well.

However, those with very few players, such as Bowser, are placed more on potential, as they don't have enough good players to give strong representation.

As for Wario, he is a brilliant character, heavy, **** near ungimpable, best aerial acceleration in the game combined with quick, high priority air moves and some very strong kill moves makes for an excellent combination.

 

[Nestec]

you can always check the Super Smash Bros. Wiki:

Brilliant site by the way. Spent over an HOUR on it once, just reading about the characters.

Heck, just four months ago I used to think that ZSS' recovery was easy to gimp.

It's not?... O_O
jk jk

Do you guys think the choice of characters is influenced by the tier list at mid-level play?

I'm actually gonna have to say no to this. I think, YES mid-level players are aware of the gaps in character potential. But does it influence them? Naaah, I think low-level players are more influenced. The ones who either (a) want to pick a popular, "cheap" character or (b) want to pick a horrible character to look like a better player.

To me, mid-level players seem more like the kinda people to look at the tier list, say "oh, my main is in that tier?" and continue to use them.

---

Btw, where would you guys say the line is drawn between mid-level and low-level players?
Me, I've never been to a tourney before. But I watch videos of the highest-level gamers, and tend to use strategies of my main that reflect the higher levels of play. So am I mid-level? Or does my lack of ACTUAL experience make me low-level? o.O

 

[Zenthewanderer]

You know, one thing still bugs me about the tier list. Maybe I'm just not clear when it comes to the whole concept, but there seems to be a paradox at work.

The tier list is most commonly described as being- 'the characters ranked by their ability at the highest level of tournament play' or something to that effect. If this is the case, how is 'high learning curve' so often used to describe a character's low placement? The above description claims that the tier list reflects each character at their best- presumably. If so, learning curve shouldn't be a factor.

Look at PT and Sonic. In past tier lists they were both given the 'high learning curve' reason for their placement. Now suddenly this no longer seems to be a spoken issue and they've risen. Yet other characters still have this as an explantion for their position. Why? What is the reality of 'learning curve's effect on tiers?

Besides the obvious point that a difficult character to learn being potentially less represented. Even if, let's say just for the purpose of the example, Luigi was the most difficult character to learn to play as, but his reward for mastery was so huge that it placed him far above MK or Snake.. Fictional, obviously- but would his 'high learning curve' disqualify him for top tier?

 

[da K.I.D.]

learning curve has never been a basis for tier placement.

learning curve maght be used to explain poor character representation, which in turn, would explain why they have bad tournament representation, which in turn leads to a lack of tourney results, which are a part of the tier list positioning.
This is currently known as "Bowser Syndrome"

when you have a character that is known to be pretty good, but because of the learning curve and basis of his character (slow moving massive target in bowsers case) isnt used much in tourneys which puts him at a lower tier position than he might be able to obtain if there were more people playing in tourneys with him.

 

[Flayl]

learning curve has never been a basis for tier placement.

learning curve maght be used to explain poor character representation, which in turn, would explain why they have bad tournament representation, which in turn leads to a lack of tourney results, which are a part of the tier list positioning.
This is currently known as "Bowser Syndrome"

when you have a character that is known to be pretty good, but because of the learning curve and basis of his character (slow moving massive target in bowsers case) isnt used much in tourneys which puts him at a lower tier position than he might be able to obtain if there were more people playing in tourneys with him.

*twitch*

Funnily enough Bowser was never affected by "Bowser Syndrome" concerning tier lists. He was always top of low tier despite having poorer representation than many of the characters below him. And he belongs there.

edit: Since I already know it's going to come up: Bowser has an average Dash and is tied for 8th best when it comes to air mobility. This paired with klaw hopping makes him more mobile than at least half of the cast.

 

[Kinzer]

edit: Since I already know it's going to come up: Bowser has an average Dash and is tied for 8th best when it comes to air mobility. This paired with klaw hopping makes him more mobile than at least half of the cast.

This should just be the Bowser players' sigs, this would save them the trouble of having to explain it to the ******* who still think big & slow = bad when we have Snake.