The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Albert.]

ZSS is a really good character, lol at people underestimating her.

even Shaya

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Hmm... characters better than ZSS:

MK, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, Dedede, Marth, G&W, Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, ROB, Kirby, Lucario.

The 8 green ones I agree with.
Orange, possible.
Red? Ehh, not so much.

GaW has the disadvantage of losing to the 3 best characters, MK snake and diddy.
ROB is just rob, his viability was lost ages ago. The only thing keeping him high is that the rest of the cast sucks. oh and the snake mu
Kirby is just to standard, won't go anywhere with his metagame atm.
more and more people are starting to realise that the mu against kirbs isnt that bad (example: falcos)

Pikachu yeah, he's a good character. still he has that awful killing problem, and lacks some range
Olimar has mk as weakness, which is kinda hard to deal with especially because it's not JUST a weakness, it's a glaring weakness. The biggest cliff between olimar and viability is that he is a 'counter or be countered' character
Lucario is a good all round character, and could be higher then ZSS. not much else to say on him x)

 

[Nefarious B]

ZS should be 11th to 13th right now, depending where you place Kirby, GaW, ROB, and Lucario.

Also imo Olimar>Pika for 9th, with GaW dropping out of top 8 and ICs moving in.

 

[demonictoonlink]

After Kirby I would switch it to:

A Tier
Donkey Kong

B Tier
Toon Link
Pikachu
Luigi


DK, Luigi and Toon Link are highly underrated because nobody is good with them, but they are all pretty sick characters with plenty of good match-ups. Pikachu on the other hand is way too high, he/she/it sucks compared to everyone else in A tier. The rest of the list looks pretty accurate.

wow...everything in this post...wow.

 

[SwedishChef]

I got a question about this whole tiers mumbo jumbo. I'm no pro but just by what I'm looking at and my experience in Smash, can you really consider tiers to be very accurate? I mean sure one character can be better than another but isn't there always that factor of skill tossed in there that makes is sorta variable? In other words, any fool knows Meta Knight is better than Ganon but other than the obvious gaps wouldn't it kinda come down to how well *insert character here* is represented?

 

[NoBio]

No, the tier list shows how much potential a character has over another.

~NoTrace

 

[Palpi]

At equal skill, and top level of play the list stands fairly accurate on deciding what characters are better than others.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No, the tier list shows how much potential a character has over another.

~NoTrace

Lolno, it's a reflection of the current metagame.

If it was about potential it would look different

 

[SwedishChef]

So let me get this straight, it doesn't exactly mean how good they are, it's more how good they can be?

 

[Nefarious B]

No it's much more about how they are doing right now in our metagame

 

[Swordmaster02013]

I wish Link was used a little more. xP

 

[smashmachine]

look at everyone hating on pika and g&w

 

[Goldenadept]

where's all the wolf love though? He hardly gets any rep at all despite the fact that he's pretty much the best worst character in brawl, if tilt locks and Cg's were out of the picture wolf could be incredibly viable, not top 10 material but somewhere up there

 

[humble]

where's all the wolf love though? He hardly gets any rep at all despite the fact that he's pretty much the best worst character in brawl, if tilt locks and Cg's were out of the picture wolf could be incredibly viable, not top 10 material but somewhere up there

horribly gimpable recovery, destroyed by tilt locks, and gets CGed far too easily. IF he didn't have those weaknesses, sure he might be better; C. Falcon would be better if he had meta's range, sure. Well if you removed the weaknesses from a lot of characters they could be viable, its too bad they have those weaknesses. Personally I wish pokemon trainer would have been made into 3 seperate pokemon and he didn't have stamina, but he isn't. I wish ivysaur could move faster in the air and had a viable recovery; I wish ganondorfs attacks were as fast as metaknights; I wish Link had Pit's recovery. Ultimately, the characters have flaws, so they are lower in the tiers; fix those flaws, and sure they would be better.

 

[Goldenadept]

horribly gimpable recovery, destroyed by tilt locks, and gets CGed far too easily. IF he didn't have those weaknesses, sure he might be better; C. Falcon would be better if he had meta's range, sure. Well if you removed the weaknesses from a lot of characters they could be viable, its too bad they have those weaknesses. Personally I wish pokemon trainer would have been made into 3 seperate pokemon and he didn't have stamina, but he isn't. I wish ivysaur could move faster in the air and had a viable recovery; I wish ganondorfs attacks were as fast as metaknights; I wish Link had Pit's recovery. Ultimately, the characters have flaws, so they are lower in the tiers; fix those flaws, and sure they would be better.

wolfs recovery isn't that bad or gimpable, its easy to see coming sure but a good wolf wont let you gimp him easily nor will he recovery predictably.
Even if CF had meta's range he would still suck, I'm not talking about changing the characters as a whole, i'm saying if the ghey parts of brawl were removed wolf would fair much better, all the low tiers would ultimately still suck, if we changed the way characters played then there'd be no point to brawl, you obviously didnt get the point i was getting at at all

 

[mountain_tiger]

Wolf's recovery isn't quite as horrible as some suggest, but it's highly predictable. Good Wolf players will almost always use side B over up B, unless they have a significant vertical distance to cover, since up B is so laggy and doesn't sweetspot properly. So he's limited to one recovery option, which can be predicted and capitalised on.

Of course, a few higher tier characters have this problem too, but they generally have strengths to make up for it. Falco has great camping ability, Olimar is hard to knock off stage due to being very hard to approach etc. Despite his various good traits, he doesn't really excel at anything, and thus he is unlikely to rise that much in the forseeable future.

 

[Goldenadept]

yeah it was more of a "what if" statement, i can honestly see wolf going up very slightly much not much more at all

 

[SwedishChef]

Yeah Wolf's recovery is pretty bad. I was playing against a Kirby once and he kept swallowing me and suiciding when I would Side B =(

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

That proves the point of Wolf's predictability w/ him being very limited to getting on the stage, safely.

 

[Masterchef1123]

This is exactly why I don't use wolf lol.

 

[Ishiey]

Wolf has the tools to avoid a grab/attack pretty well from most characters. Bair has great range and leaves you with a 3 frame disadvantage if you land right after you hit your opponent's shield (barring a PS, with your opponent still in shield). Fair also has great range and decent kill power, so unless you can react in 13 frames to PS it out of a SH, it's very effective. Great air speed makes it harder to punish landings, along with platform camping when applicable, all of this can make Wolf difficult to hit with a chain of attacks.

With good DI, there are very few attacks Wolf should be getting hit by that will leave him in a gimpable position. His recovery is linear and relatively predictable, and has crappy priority as well, but with good DI from above, Wolf is set: shine, airdodge, flash cancel, breversal blaster, and yes even dair, can see to it. And, as said in the last paragraph, Wolf can avoid most of those low-trajectory attacks when he needs to, anyways.

Wolf has no "unwinnable" matchups, no horrendously bad CPs that you can't ban, and performs solidly on all neutrals (even Lylat (if it's neutral where you're at), although it takes some getting used to). So... yeah.

I have a feeling I'm going to regret posting this, because I have no intention of arguing this out. The reason Wolf is not in a higher tier is mainly because of a lack of rep by top-level players (because yeah no crap there are better characters with a lower learning curve) and because so few are willing to play campy/patient (Wolf is really fun to aggro with, but it's rarely a great idea... if you enjoy playing campy/patient in the first place, you'd probably play another character). He's ranked high almost everywhere else, so that's gotta at least show something.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wolf v. Marth is a cool MU that's all I know about that.

MK and D3 from what I understand really hurt him though.

 

[Wulfy07]

He's saying that Falco's strategies are much easier to destroy with a counter-pick, whereas wario is generally effective regardless.

That means that falco HAS to win the first match.

Eh...true, but I can't think of too many counter picks that would actually be horrible for Falco. The one's that are insane (pirate ship, Norfair, etc) are usually banned, and the only one that comes to mind as awful for Falco is RC, but that isn't too strong for Wario either, is it?

The 8 green ones I agree with.
Orange, possible.
Red? Ehh, not so much.

GaW has the disadvantage of losing to the 3 best characters, MK snake and diddy.
ROB is just rob, his viability was lost ages ago. The only thing keeping him high is that the rest of the cast sucks. oh and the snake mu
Kirby is just to standard, won't go anywhere with his metagame atm.
more and more people are starting to realise that the mu against kirbs isnt that bad (example: falcos)

Pikachu yeah, he's a good character. still he has that awful killing problem, and lacks some range
Olimar has mk as weakness, which is kinda hard to deal with especially because it's not JUST a weakness, it's a glaring weakness. The biggest cliff between olimar and viability is that he is a 'counter or be countered' character
Lucario is a good all round character, and could be higher then ZSS. not much else to say on him x)

Best three by who's opinion?
Of the *actual* best three (right now), G&W is losing to MK and Snake 60:40, 65:35 respectively, and about even against Wario (which I consider bs because Wario doesn't have any approach on G&W that doesn't end in a GnW grabbing him, but I've only seen about 5 matches so w/e)
Neverminding that, you're talking about a character that has a total of 5 disadvantaged match ups, where only two are really impossible, as worse than Zero who has bad match ups against weaker characters? I mean, for this to even be debatable, there needs to be more information available on how Zero can perform against most of the mid tier (which I don't see much of), where as G&W is pretty much nothing but even through the whole board. He's definitely high/mid A and should pretty much always be there. Zero is developed enough to belong there and more metagame is necessary

Edit in response to avoid Double post:

Lolno, it's a reflection of the current metagame.

If it was about potential it would look different

I agree. For example, a potential list would probably have a top 3 or 4 of something like:
S.S. Meta knight
S. Snake
A. Marth? Diddy? Falco? (Prob Marth then Falco then Diddy...Falco's less represented but more potential/opinion)
B. who cares?
A potential list is entirely different. The tier list reflects the metagame, character's theoretical and practical abilities, and tournament wins (assuming metagame refers to MUs rather than tournament wins)

 

[FaWa]

We can all agree Fox is a small bit better then Wolf, but I still disagree with Lucas being better then Ness. Ness has an easy Meteor Smash, a stalling PK Fire that he can use the bat to score some real % on, and the Yoyo that can be a real pain. Ness also has a fantastic air game that he can utilize really well. Lucas I guess has some tools, but he's not as good as Ness.

 

[DanGR]

Why is Fox better than Wolf? *stares intently*

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lolno, it's a reflection of the current metagame.

If it was about potential it would look different

LOL UR DUMB.

Okay joking aside, you are actually both correct.

Depending on the tierlist, it will reflect either the potential of the character, or their current state in the metagame.

This tierlist iskind of mixed, why?
Under the current metagame Sonic would be much higher than he already is currently. Roughly 18th place currently.
This tierlist appears to be a mix.

Some characters are placed in accordance to their potential because of how developed their metagame has become. Some are based on the metagame itself because they just havent fully developed to a point where their potential is accurately measured.

 

[Feels]

We can all agree Fox is a small bit better then Wolf, but I still disagree with Lucas being better then Ness. Ness has an easy Meteor Smash, a stalling PK Fire that he can use the bat to score some real % on, and the Yoyo that can be a real pain. Ness also has a fantastic air game that he can utilize really well. Lucas I guess has some tools, but he's not as good as Ness.

Can't you just SDI PK Fire?
And Ness doesn't have the best recovery in the world, atleast Lucas has the Zap Jump.

 

[Ishiey]

Wolf v. Marth is a cool MU that's all I know about that.

Definitely :3 It's one of my favorite matchups, so long as you don't get gimp-***** by Marth :<

MK and D3 from what I understand really hurt him though.

MK, idk... I suck at the matchup but supposedly it's something like 60:40 at worst, not too bad. D3, I personally think it's about 60:40 as well :O So long as you have your CPs/bans sorted out and can play really patient/campy, there's really no reason you should lose significantly unless you ****ed up bad or there's a massive skill gap..

Wario and Pika are just as bad with cgs and all, but I can't quite say for sure since I have next to no experience here. In the end though, nothing goes past 65:35 against Wolf in the current metagame. Which is bad, yeah, but that's the absolute worst, there are no unwinnable matchups.

Also, I know ratios suck but it's all I got

Why is Fox better than Wolf? *stares intently*

This. Really, don't just throw that around without backing it up.

 

[Chuee]

We can all agree Fox is a small bit better then Wolf, but I still disagree with Lucas being better then Ness. Ness has an easy Meteor Smash, a stalling PK Fire that he can use the bat to score some real % on, and the Yoyo that can be a real pain. Ness also has a fantastic air game that he can utilize really well. Lucas I guess has some tools, but he's not as good as Ness.

Most of this isn't important.

 

[Palpi]

Mk beats wolf 65-35 imo.

Lucas is better than Ness imo, or atleast a lot harder to fight..or to learn how to fight.

 

[Masterchef1123]

Mk beats wolf 65-35 imo.

Lucas is better than Ness imo, or atleast a lot harder to fight..or to learn how to fight.

Ness is better then Lucas imo, because of his more powerful B up attack and his B side stall.
Plus you can camp a lot better with ness then with lucas, because of being able to be surrounded in his B down instead of it being in front of him.
Not only that, but Ness's throws are superior to Lucas's.
Personally I think Ness is better
However it all depends on the person if they'd rather have a strong character
or a fast character.
But I'd say in a match up ness would have a 55: 45 advantage.

 

[Palpi]

You don't really know what you are talking about.

 

[zeldspazz]

Who overall has more range, Ness or Lucas?

Im assuming Ness does, especially his Fair which is probably a more reliable approach than any of Lucas.

Lucas imo is a better character. He has a better recovery, easier time killing with better setups, and camps better with PK Fire.

 

[Chuee]

PKF stalling? lolwtf.
Anyways zeldspazz.
Ness' Fair has better range than Lucas', but on the ground Lucas has slightly better range.

 

[zeldspazz]

Gotcha. Thanks

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lol at the guy saying lucas has better KO setups than ness.

cause full hop fast fall down air, in to down tilt lock, hoping they dont tech the landing, into f/u smash hoping they dont sdi the tilt OR the up smash, is way better and TONS more reliable that dash grab them out of their lag from anything and hitting back on your control stick...

nesses air game is better, lucases ground game is better. ness is stronger, lucas has a better recovery, all of their B moves pretty much blow and ness has WAY better tournament results...

Take from that what you will...

 

[orange/xd]

LOL @ all their B moves pretty much blow.


Lucas is a better character than Ness, but Ness should be higher on the tier list because he has way more tourney representation.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Ness is WAAAY better than Lucas, why? He's got a bat.

 

[zeldspazz]

Lol at the guy saying lucas has better KO setups than ness.

I do have a username, you know. I would take more out of that informative post if you actually used it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ness is WAAAY better than Lucas, why? He's got a bat.

Lucaus Beats up people with a freaking bambo stick. Thats More hardcore dude.

Lucas>Ness