SwedishChef
Smash Cadet
Impeccable logic, my friend. Although I was thinking more along the lines of "Ness has to use a bat to do what Lucas can do with a twig. ******ery."
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
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demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I get to play a REALLY good ness a decent amount (Timotee) He's always been an amazing Ness, but lately I've just felt like the character can only take him so far. He's dropped him for Wario and I see why.
Ness is great before you realize just how much he can be punished. Lucas>>>Ness, and yes, Lucas KOs like a pro.
Ness is great before you realize just how much he can be punished. Lucas>>>Ness, and yes, Lucas KOs like a pro.
Pichu4SSB4
You're not going Turbo?
Lucas' stick is broken. Ness has better taunts tho. Ness: OKAI!
smashkng
Smash Lord
Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas. Lucas has better air speed (10th, Ness' is average), doesn't need as much space as Ness needs (which means walls don't block as easily) and he has a tether. He also can't be gimped by touching the electric ball and his PKT2 gives more distance than Ness'.
Lucas has a worse jump break than Ness though, but still both have the worst (by far) ground break in the game (maybe a glitch or Sakurai did it knowing it?)
Lucas has a worse jump break than Ness though, but still both have the worst (by far) ground break in the game (maybe a glitch or Sakurai did it knowing it?)
Albert.
Smash Master
NESS HAS FOW TH0UGh!
Wulfy07
Smash Apprentice
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Actually, both have zap jump, it's just that Ness' 2nd jump physics make it a huge pain in the butt to do.
Also, Ness is better than Lucas due to match ups and better air game. I think Ness has many more positive match ups and less negative match ups than Lucas.
Javon89
Smash Ace
Ness>Lucuss
10char
10char
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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Ness>Lucas
Me and my friend Yink talked about it. It mainly boils down to MU's and realizing that in Brawl, having a better air game is better than having a better ground game.
Me and my friend Yink talked about it. It mainly boils down to MU's and realizing that in Brawl, having a better air game is better than having a better ground game.
FaWa
Smash Apprentice
Yea, Ness > Lucas all the way. NOTHING beats Meteor Smashing Snake out of his recovery.
lol Ness' MU's are NOT better than Lucas'. I play both characters really well and Ness' MU's are worse. Also Ness' air game isn't as great as people make it seem. I'll wait for the day when people realize not to jump in like an aggro dumbazz and get hit by his Dair. Ness' air game is only slightly better.
Also, to having better air game.
Snake. Snake snake snake.
Snake is the second best in the game and he gets juggled like a *****. Lucas doesn't.
Also, to having better air game.
Snake. Snake snake snake.
Snake is the second best in the game and he gets juggled like a *****. Lucas doesn't.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Snake snake snake has an EXTREMELY good ground game.
Doesn't change the fact that if he had a better aerial game like MK, he wouldnt have to suffer dealing with DDD so much.
ZING!
Doesn't change the fact that if he had a better aerial game like MK, he wouldnt have to suffer dealing with DDD so much.
ZING!
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
FINALLY I'm not on the top of the poster list anymore, Dark.Pch and ShadowLink overtook me. Thank God. :3
Uh uhm, right, topic relevant stuff... Meta Knight is Top Tier.
Uh uhm, right, topic relevant stuff... Meta Knight is Top Tier.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Its why I have been posting so often. went....
joel isnt posting...
Must be a post count thing.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ness>Lucas.
The two need to be switched, and then Lucas needs to drop a bit more. /late
The two need to be switched, and then Lucas needs to drop a bit more. /late
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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Me and ShadowLink had to explain stuff and truths that the BBR just can't do. You boys don't know too much.
We>BBR
Wulfy07
Smash Apprentice
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Playing both characters, while doable, doesn't changed the fact that you'll become partial to one or the other. That aside Ness is ranked 25th according to the match up chart versus Lucas who is ranked 30th. I am relatively certain that means Ness has better match ups.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Taken from MK MUs?
Awesome DMG, but now I need to plank against you.
Awesome DMG, but now I need to plank against you.
Wulfy07
Smash Apprentice
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LOL
now, I luv Dk.P
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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I guess. I would have to talk to shadowlink about this.I don't get to be in that group?
I wanna know stuff and be cooler then the BBR too!
And everyone is cooler than the BRR. They are a bunch of emos. Hence thier names are purple and no one can see what goes on in there. it is all private. Also explains whay they don't know alot.
Jupz
Smash Master
What do you guys think is happening to Pikachu next tier list? IMO he'll stay around the same, G&W might drop below him causing him to move up a spot. IC's could also rise above him though. He's got good maneuverability, good recovery and obviously the chaingrabs hurt. He has a few relatively safe pokes (Dtilt, rising Nair) and his kill power isn't too shabby with Usmash, Thunder, and the hugely disjointed Fsmash. However he has poor range besides Fsmash and thus characters that heavily outrange him make bad matchups for him (Marth, MK).
Palpi
Smash Hero
Pikachu might drop a spot or two but nothing significant.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
How about... you and ShadowLink explained stuff that the BBR just doesn't WANT to do?
There's a reason I rarely post outside of the BBR and the one or other social thread. And I'm pretty sure that reason is the same for the majority of the other BBR members.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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From what I am hearing here............
You boys are useless
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
We're not here to educate every noob about everything in this game.
We're a group dedicated to release projects benefitting the Smash community, not a school for people who can't read guides.
We're a group dedicated to release projects benefitting the Smash community, not a school for people who can't read guides.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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Yet you boys waste your time making a tier list.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
And this relates to my point... how?
"Projects benefitting the Smash community" involves getting together the best players and biggest hosts for creating pieces of information about the game. I don't see how a tier list is comparable with a guide or telling a new player how SDI works.
"Projects benefitting the Smash community" involves getting together the best players and biggest hosts for creating pieces of information about the game. I don't see how a tier list is comparable with a guide or telling a new player how SDI works.
I think what he means is that people are frustrated that we don't usually give good, somewhat detailed explanations and answers for questions based on the tier list, and that we kinda just throw out stuff and expect people to follow along.
Some questions asked by the community frankly are ******** and don't deserve an answer in the first place, but there are a lot of meaningful, genuine questions concerning where so and so is placed, or what attributes/lack there of lead to their placement or how we graded different aspects of characters to compare them with each other when fighting for tier position, etc. A lot of those we don't answer, or we answer very slowly or incompletely. That I would like to change personally, even though I obviously can't do everything alone lol.
At the same time though, I don't think our obligation extends out this far, especially when we are this close to releasing the next tier list, and when a lot of good questions have already been asked in countless pages before this.
Some questions asked by the community frankly are ******** and don't deserve an answer in the first place, but there are a lot of meaningful, genuine questions concerning where so and so is placed, or what attributes/lack there of lead to their placement or how we graded different aspects of characters to compare them with each other when fighting for tier position, etc. A lot of those we don't answer, or we answer very slowly or incompletely. That I would like to change personally, even though I obviously can't do everything alone lol.
At the same time though, I don't think our obligation extends out this far, especially when we are this close to releasing the next tier list, and when a lot of good questions have already been asked in countless pages before this.
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Will this next tier list keep planking/circle camping in mind?
I mean, will it account for MK having a guaranteed win on Smashville against about 70% of the cast and about 30-40% of the cast on Battlefield if he can get the first hit in. (for both stages) That sort of thing may leave D3 in the dust... or at least out in the cold (out of top tier, and perhaps the next).
Just sayin.
I mean, will it account for MK having a guaranteed win on Smashville against about 70% of the cast and about 30-40% of the cast on Battlefield if he can get the first hit in. (for both stages) That sort of thing may leave D3 in the dust... or at least out in the cold (out of top tier, and perhaps the next).
Just sayin.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
@DMG:
But that means every single BBR member who voted on the tierlist placements would have to post his votings and state why exactly he thinks that A is there and B is there.
The question "Why is character X so low/high/in tier Y?" cannot be answered properly other than "Because the BBR members voted so", since the position is the combination of all votings - and therefore all opinions - of the BRoomers who voted.
For instance, someone might have voted Mario to be Bottom Tier, while someone else might have voted Mario for being close Mid Tier. Seeing how some players have very different experiences with more rare characters, it is an entirely possible scenario.
Now, mathematically speaking, this example would already put Mario in the middle of Low Tier, maybe even a bit below the line. The positions are just an average out of the positions every BBR member has put them in.
Furthermore, it already is stated in the OP that only the higher tiered characters were given more attention due to their importance to the metagame and its development. So the question why Link is below Captain Falcon or why Lucas is above Ness is pretty much moot - they are more or less interchangeable with each other.
But that means every single BBR member who voted on the tierlist placements would have to post his votings and state why exactly he thinks that A is there and B is there.
The question "Why is character X so low/high/in tier Y?" cannot be answered properly other than "Because the BBR members voted so", since the position is the combination of all votings - and therefore all opinions - of the BRoomers who voted.
For instance, someone might have voted Mario to be Bottom Tier, while someone else might have voted Mario for being close Mid Tier. Seeing how some players have very different experiences with more rare characters, it is an entirely possible scenario.
Now, mathematically speaking, this example would already put Mario in the middle of Low Tier, maybe even a bit below the line. The positions are just an average out of the positions every BBR member has put them in.
Furthermore, it already is stated in the OP that only the higher tiered characters were given more attention due to their importance to the metagame and its development. So the question why Link is below Captain Falcon or why Lucas is above Ness is pretty much moot - they are more or less interchangeable with each other.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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Heh heh heh.
You don't get it.
Anyway, my first comment that you quoted was a joke. But on some real talk though, I do feel that BBR really dont know alot about characters. And some members in there are a waste of time when it comes to this. Thus a Proper tier list won't ever be made.
You boys are in charge of more than " Project benifitting the smash community." If you decide to work on a tier list, that is also you job to know about characters and what you are doing with them. I don't think everu player combined in there knows about every character to a full extent.
Thus you as you say:
"How about... you and ShadowLink explained stuff that the BBR just doesn't WANT to do?"
Some of you seriously just can't, and the ones that do stay have to be corrected but other members in the community to set you boys straight.
Can't duck you way out of this one dude. As I said, if that is the case, you boys are seriously wasting your time with a tier list. Only thing people in there seem to know alot about is camping/planking and playing gay.
You don't get it.
Anyway, my first comment that you quoted was a joke. But on some real talk though, I do feel that BBR really dont know alot about characters. And some members in there are a waste of time when it comes to this. Thus a Proper tier list won't ever be made.
You boys are in charge of more than " Project benifitting the smash community." If you decide to work on a tier list, that is also you job to know about characters and what you are doing with them. I don't think everu player combined in there knows about every character to a full extent.
Thus you as you say:
"How about... you and ShadowLink explained stuff that the BBR just doesn't WANT to do?"
Some of you seriously just can't, and the ones that do stay have to be corrected but other members in the community to set you boys straight.
Can't duck you way out of this one dude. As I said, if that is the case, you boys are seriously wasting your time with a tier list. Only thing people in there seem to know alot about is camping/planking and playing gay.
Depends.
While I think planking should be banned, as it stands it is not in the SBR ruleset. Therefore on the tier list, I have to view things as no edge grab limit/anti planking rules in place. With that said, I have Falco, Dedede, and Olimar slightly lower, with G&W higher and Marth higher and Jiggs higher for lower tiered characters.
Most people still have Falco in the top 5. I am not that confident that he is top 5 with planking fully allowed. It allows MK/G&W/Marth to take a potentially even matchup and make it definitely in their favor, and it would allow characters like Jigglypuff to have decent prospects just because of planking.
Joel: That's what I'm saying though. Some questions are either dumb, or they are kinda like who is the worst/second worst/5th worst. Like I could probably answer it with an essay, or people could get mad if I didn't write it, but it's kinda like well, IDK if I wanna put in the effort to answer something not as important. With that said though, we do let a lot of good questions pass by.
The vote averaging affect, that's fine though. Members could still explain briefly, occasionally, some of their stances/beliefs on character matchups, tier placements, why they valued so and so over so and so, etc. Not for every character or for every question, but every so often to let people know that we are paying attention and care more.
While I think planking should be banned, as it stands it is not in the SBR ruleset. Therefore on the tier list, I have to view things as no edge grab limit/anti planking rules in place. With that said, I have Falco, Dedede, and Olimar slightly lower, with G&W higher and Marth higher and Jiggs higher for lower tiered characters.
Most people still have Falco in the top 5. I am not that confident that he is top 5 with planking fully allowed. It allows MK/G&W/Marth to take a potentially even matchup and make it definitely in their favor, and it would allow characters like Jigglypuff to have decent prospects just because of planking.
Joel: That's what I'm saying though. Some questions are either dumb, or they are kinda like who is the worst/second worst/5th worst. Like I could probably answer it with an essay, or people could get mad if I didn't write it, but it's kinda like well, IDK if I wanna put in the effort to answer something not as important. With that said though, we do let a lot of good questions pass by.
The vote averaging affect, that's fine though. Members could still explain briefly, occasionally, some of their stances/beliefs on character matchups, tier placements, why they valued so and so over so and so, etc. Not for every character or for every question, but every so often to let people know that we are paying attention and care more.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Eh, overall I do wish you guys would follow the supreme court model and write out an official decision for any of these major announcements (it's been done for some things, but as a general rule).
I personally think that privacy is a good thing to preserve legitimacy and prevent pressure from influencing decisions, however official decisions make it obvious you guys aren't pulling this out of your ***es, and that you actually know what you're talking about.
Not that I believe you don't, but there is a perception that's gaining prevalence among brawlers.
I personally think that privacy is a good thing to preserve legitimacy and prevent pressure from influencing decisions, however official decisions make it obvious you guys aren't pulling this out of your ***es, and that you actually know what you're talking about.
Not that I believe you don't, but there is a perception that's gaining prevalence among brawlers.
Ok, I don't think SL would reject me...
Eh, don't have to put people down, what matters is that we're cooler then them, not that they're uncool.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
@DMG:
Well, that's what I tried to do here, at least coming from my own perspective. I have posted and explained my opinion on certain matters in this very thread (which resulted in my well over 500 posts in here). All I got is a response like "you're not right", maybe with some more fluff, but basically that's it. The people didn't even give a thought about what I was saying, because if they did, they might have come to some conclusions or might have expanded my thought experiments. Or, alternatively, it was a response like "omg SBR sucks, you suck, only I know the most about my character lawl".
And that's exactly the reason why I stopped posting in here - additionally to the same questions being asked all the time.
Well, that's what I tried to do here, at least coming from my own perspective. I have posted and explained my opinion on certain matters in this very thread (which resulted in my well over 500 posts in here). All I got is a response like "you're not right", maybe with some more fluff, but basically that's it. The people didn't even give a thought about what I was saying, because if they did, they might have come to some conclusions or might have expanded my thought experiments. Or, alternatively, it was a response like "omg SBR sucks, you suck, only I know the most about my character lawl".
And that's exactly the reason why I stopped posting in here - additionally to the same questions being asked all the time.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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The planking is seriously stupid to keep or even second guess. some think it should not be banned. I asked many times, how many times has planking been beaten. None could answer that for me. The fact that you boys have to second guess this and can't come to a conclusion says enough for me. people are ether bias to no end and can't admit anything or seriously don't know alot or care for that matter. And as a Member of the BBR you are suppose to care. You trying to develop this community and all that as joel says right? Well from what I am getting, you boys are not doing a good job.
Now on to characters, how many high tier players you have in there in account to mid/low tier players? Most people know about high tier more than anything in there. Causes that all that the BBR can go hard core about and keep talking about playing gay and all that. Why is your time being wasted in there with that. Get people that know and beat in tournies with mid/ low tier and know about about them. And no, not someone that uses them once in a blue in tournies and not against thier worst match ups. That does not make you legit.
But also, there are alot of people who don't do to hot in tournies yet know alot about hier characters and can break them down. ShadowLink can pretty much **** anyone in there when it comes to sonic. This dude has destroyed this thread with sonic ****.
Clai is another beast with Ganon in this thread. IDK whos is better, his or Inui but Clai has ***** this thread with Ganon. Vex with Bowser. Me with Peach and a few others.
This kind of information that we provide you is stuff someone in there should be able to do, not have members out side of the BBR doing. this is your jobs if you gonna shut yourselfs out so none can see what goes on in there. And as I said before, when it comes to these characters, the community stay has to be correcting you boys. It seriously should be the other way around.
Now on to characters, how many high tier players you have in there in account to mid/low tier players? Most people know about high tier more than anything in there. Causes that all that the BBR can go hard core about and keep talking about playing gay and all that. Why is your time being wasted in there with that. Get people that know and beat in tournies with mid/ low tier and know about about them. And no, not someone that uses them once in a blue in tournies and not against thier worst match ups. That does not make you legit.
But also, there are alot of people who don't do to hot in tournies yet know alot about hier characters and can break them down. ShadowLink can pretty much **** anyone in there when it comes to sonic. This dude has destroyed this thread with sonic ****.
Clai is another beast with Ganon in this thread. IDK whos is better, his or Inui but Clai has ***** this thread with Ganon. Vex with Bowser. Me with Peach and a few others.
This kind of information that we provide you is stuff someone in there should be able to do, not have members out side of the BBR doing. this is your jobs if you gonna shut yourselfs out so none can see what goes on in there. And as I said before, when it comes to these characters, the community stay has to be correcting you boys. It seriously should be the other way around.
Planking doesn't have enough hard, irrefutable evidence that it is a bannable tactic/strategy. Planking as a whole doesn't have a lot of evidence to support either side. Most tournaments have an edge grab limit installed, but as people will point out there are rarely, if ever, worthy tournament won from planking, or where planking had a significant effect on the tournament.
Even if it was unanimously agreed and basically proven that planking was broken, the task of banning it from gameplay would be fairly difficult. We have plenty of options to try and deal with it, just not ones that everyone can agree on or ones that would seem "radical". One suggestion that comes to mind a lot for me is that someone said if you grab the edge, you are forced to do a ledge option (ledge jump, stand up, get up ledge attack, ledge roll. Nothing else. No dropping down from the ledge and using an attack/double jump, nothing else.) That would solve planking, but most people would think that affects gameplay significantly enough that a rule like that should not be used.
Even if it was unanimously agreed and basically proven that planking was broken, the task of banning it from gameplay would be fairly difficult. We have plenty of options to try and deal with it, just not ones that everyone can agree on or ones that would seem "radical". One suggestion that comes to mind a lot for me is that someone said if you grab the edge, you are forced to do a ledge option (ledge jump, stand up, get up ledge attack, ledge roll. Nothing else. No dropping down from the ledge and using an attack/double jump, nothing else.) That would solve planking, but most people would think that affects gameplay significantly enough that a rule like that should not be used.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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That thing is seriously dumb though, people have planked hard core and have lost to it. They can't do anything.
That may be true, but how MUCH evidence like that is out there? If you have isolated events where someone really good loses hard to planking, even if it appears blatant that a strategy is too good, that usually won't be enough evidence as a whole to support a ban on it.
Like I said, I think planking is too strong, however I also accept that evidence wise there is not a whole lot of strong evidence to support what I am saying. If there were more matches with it recorded or played out, we would be able to better understand whether it truly is too good or not. Right now, people regardless of how they perceive planking, are only being shown a "sliver" of planking overall.
Like I said, I think planking is too strong, however I also accept that evidence wise there is not a whole lot of strong evidence to support what I am saying. If there were more matches with it recorded or played out, we would be able to better understand whether it truly is too good or not. Right now, people regardless of how they perceive planking, are only being shown a "sliver" of planking overall.
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