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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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BRoomer
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Diddy is going to keep bananas out as often as possible...and for most characters, no you don't have just as much control as him, his moveset is built around item use in ways that other characters aren't, although some are nearly as good as him for it.
Yeah... he may be better suited and I'll admit I wasn't concidering the whole cast in that last post. there are some slower characters that are going to have it rough owning bananas and still keeping up presure. DK comes to mind peach maybe D3.
but even still. he throws a naner at you. you catch it or dodge it and poof it's behind you. now it is off limits until he passes you. if you keep up a strong wall you now have the advantage, most players I see are very quick to just throw the banana right back inbetween the players which more often than not is a bad choice regardless of your character.

I actually think nanerless Diddy is underrated a bit, he's not as one dimensional as people make him out to be...he's not sopopo. He might not beat you without bananas, but he can fend you off long enough to get them back out with his mobility and quick attacks.
Nanerless diddy lack good and safe kill set ups. his aerials are relatively slow and are very scripted despite their strength and his grown kills lack either the range or the speed to be viable alone. comboing and building damage also becomes a problem without something to approach behind. diddy's dash attack is neat but can be punished in some form or another normally a simple grab (except zelda she can't do anything because she is horrible) his aerials have tons of land lag. his run is relatively slow and predictable when compared to other characters who can just appear in with grabs and dash attacks like sheik and MK. his over B is very scripted and can be pivoted on reaction be everything.

Even his defensive options are lacking much more so without bananas. glide toss naner is such a great defeisive tool out of sheild against characters who would other wise be safe spacing aerials or tilts.


See where I'm going with this? Obviously I'm only pointing out the major flaws so it's a little unbalanced, but it just goes to show how important limiting diddy's naner time is in the match up on all situations. It's very rare that I ever approach a diddy with multiple bananas in possession. when I can wait and just get the advantage in the match up.
 

Nic64

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KO power and comboing are pretty irrelevant, I said he's not a great character without banana's, just that he's good enough that he can get back into situations where he can get them back out pretty frequently. He doesn't have to kill you or rack up a ton of damage, he just needs you to get out of his face for a second or so.
 

Dark.Pch

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There's a reason why the BBR has exceptional players, such as M2K,
they win,
and to win they have to be able to handle everything,
and if they come across a character, the best of that character, then they get an idea of what that character can do.
1: Partial growing in understanding of a character's styles and options at a high level. Lack of individual match up knowledge, but from what is seen, with an already strong idea of the game, can be enough basis for at least an "Advantage"/"Disadvantage"/"Even" situation.

There's a reason why the BBR has notorious "regional" players/TOs like Inui or Xyro, or even myself.
2: Someone who has a community mindset, they know their scene and have reason to see a broad range of players and their characters. This is quite important. This is what many BBroomers use as a basis of their opinions; they know a lot of people who know their mains well, they talk to them and gain their opinions if they are unaware, and also get to see MANY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS face up against OTHER CHARACTERS as to form an understanding of their ability in general.

The tier list really is about a character's ability in general, remember

There are other types of people in the BBR. The 'great thinkers', who partake mostly in everything BUT the tier list (Ruleset), are very important to the BBR as well. As someone in the BBR, I think the efforts we put into managing (the best word I could think of, don't shoot me for it) the metagame, rather than the tier list, is more important.

The tier list is important, but to me personally it comes as an after thought when there are more essential things in maintaining brawl's competitiveness and popularity.

So DP, why aren't people who are in your region, as in those who are classification TWO, agreeing (or considering) with your opinions and backing those up in the BBR. Maybe that's happening already? Those who know you and can perceive your thoughts on your character by seeing you play are arguing for you, not against you. But if they still believe Peach is C tier, that isn't directly THEIR fault, it is more arguably YOURS.

Hence why regional seperation is very important in the BBR.
People that see me play tourny the summer time seen what I have done with this character in tourny that clearly shows that she is not C tier. People still have that 08-09 mindset of her not being able to kill well and all that obvious stuff people cry about with this character. Should not be any kind of talk like this from the EC. And I know people who know me and see me play who are still on this C tier boat with Peach, which is stupid. But this is not about Peach anyway.

M2k Knows all his options with Meta and is a smart player, thus he wins. So thats how he got in there to me. M2K has said before that he just knows alot about Meta. And practices alot with him. So for this, of course you want him as a member.

And if a tier list is important, than knows about all characters to a full extend is also important. So the tier list wont look stupid and be more legit. From you post, you have everything covered well. But you boys lack in this area I talk about here. Know alot about characters are important. Wether you think they suck or not, they are part of this game and make the game.

My whole thing from the start is you guys seriously need to get off this "lets play gay, plank and all" and work on characters dude. I hear all this stuff so much expect for this part I say you boys lack it. It is important.
 

BRoomer
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Sure, Ko power and damage racking may be irrelevant but his limited approach and defensive options become a big problem. If he can't approach or propperly defend against you how are you going to let him approach through you without getting anything from it.

I'm not saying the chances wont come up between human error mind games and the various random situations that pop up in this game, but yeah. You'll definitely want to take advantage of his crazily weaker state build damage and heck get him off stage and punish that very see through recovery a bit while he can't really hurt you for it.

Diddy as a whole is way too over rated. people concidering him for better than snake is laughable IMO. even thrid is a strech in my mind. people just haven't adapted to him yet. Yes he is crazy powerful in skilled hands but his weakness are too easy to exploit to be rated so high right now.
 

Kuraudo

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Dark.Pch has the right mindset.

If it's allowed in tourneys to some extent, playing gay, some forms of planking, the list goes on and on, sure...use it.

But until then, if that factors into a character's metagame, it's only going to leave the tier list inaccurate.

Say that we actually DID focus on the metagame of a character to their full potential without the use of playing gay, planking the stage, and etc., and some of your characters moved up or down because of it. Meta Knight will always be the best in the game, but god forbid Snake takes the spot. If you're allowed to play gay/run out the clock/plank still, that won't matter to you what changes or not.

At least, that's what I figure. Once we've gotten over the stall/plank factor in a character itself, and focused on what they have WITHOUT that, we'll begin to see where characters truly stand, from a competitively ranked aspect.

...

If...I didn't get your point at all, Dark.Pch and went off on some stupid tangent, sorry and feel free to smack me. /goes back to lurking
 

Magik0722

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Sure, Ko power and damage racking may be irrelevant but his limited approach and defensive options become a big problem. If he can't approach or propperly defend against you how are you going to let him approach through you without getting anything from it.

I'm not saying the chances wont come up between human error mind games and the various random situations that pop up in this game, but yeah. You'll definitely want to take advantage of his crazily weaker state build damage and heck get him off stage and punish that very see through recovery a bit while he can't really hurt you for it.

Diddy as a whole is way too over rated. people concidering him for better than snake is laughable IMO. even thrid is a strech in my mind. people just haven't adapted to him yet. Yes he is crazy powerful in skilled hands but his weakness are too easy to exploit to be rated so high right now.
This reminds me when the game was still only a few months old and people said this exact same thing, but diddy kong has only been winning more tournaments, in fact last i checked he was the 3rd ranked winner in ankokus list
 

Kitamerby

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Lucario is low tier.

Inui for bottom tier in the next tier list too. I don't think his metagame has improved much recently. He seems like pretty much the exact same Sadaharu Inui as a year ago. :\
 

Kuraudo

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Snake is crazy overrated too though
Not really. Snake's only real weakness is being in the air (unless you're Olimar, then being on the ground and being subject to the spam/camping/pivot grabbing sucks). If he's caught on the defensive in the air/recovering/etc., he's in more trouble then he is benefiting. Other then that, he's solid across most of the board. Being on the offense while he's airborne, he's pretty **** good too.

Snake can match Meta Knight, but Snake has the disadvantage of actually having bad match-ups, whereas Meta Knight will either break even, or dominate.
 

humble

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Say that we actually DID focus on the metagame of a character to their full potential
The potential of a character will not be helped when you remove options and some of the most effective strategies, so it isn't full potential at all; it is a handicap fight, akin to two guys on crutches smacking each other. I exaggerate of course, but you get the point.
 

smashkng

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Snake has no bad matchups. Olimar is debatable if it's even or disadvantage, but other than that he has no matchups worse than 45/55, which are very few. And 40/60 is not a bad matchup, a bad matchup is 35/65 or worse.
 

Shaya

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I'm just a little confused DP, so bear with me for a moment.

As a combined "institution" we should know about all characters to a reasonable extent (and I believe we do, through regional input). Your peers are split between C/B tier, so obviously you have at least swayed (and hopefully BBR members of your regions) opinions as well. The last tier list was well over 6 months ago, so the metagame has changed, and you can't deny that Peach [yours and the metagames interpretation] has changed as well, at least indicating either a rise, fall or stale movement for the next tier list.
I think we can hopefully both agree that in initial discussions earlier in this thread you indicated Peach was underused and underrated and was better than what she was placed as. Brawl is like this by it's nature. I can perceive a character who may be higher than what they are within due course, not -now- but in the future. No zomg discovery has come along to make Marth better, but I feel he is better now than in the past, purely by natural advancements in how people play the character. So could you not agree that (I know this is old) but Pit and Donkey Kong were at it's creation of v3 perceived as better/more viable characters? I don't believe we're all set in our 08-09 mindset, but we accept action over theory; we accept theory when there is action to disprove opposing doubt.


Anyway, straying from my point of 'confusion':
"My whole thing from the start is you guys seriously need to get off this "lets play gay, plank and all" and work on characters dude."

This is (unfortunately or not) a defining part of the metagame at this time. Entire tiers below A are almost made completely unviable beyond a doubt with these 'gay strategies'. This is of course, our perception, and many hope to be wrong. What I'm confused about is why you think it is wrong for us to come to realise that those strategies are defining the metagame now, and that in itself is shaping a lot of discussion and arguement. And until the definition of competitive smash for BRAWL is changed, playing gay (or the most effective) is the way the tier list is based.

I don't think it's the BBR's responsibility to work on individual character's metagames; such a thing comes with love and dedication, something that many would have for the game but not for one character. The fish net of BBR members catching lovers is so when we produce tier lists they are as accurate as possible for the present; not the future.

Reflex made a splash with PT which resulted in a rise at the time. I do not see PT rising next tier list though. Just through action, we were given a strong implication that the character was better than what we previously thought. We can't be expected to be above that. We try though, for what is given to us NOW, we try and understand the best we can. People are out to sway opinions everywhere, including the BBR, for the rights of a character, on behalf of others.
 

BRoomer
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You don't play compedetively to be fair and make everyone happy. You play to win. There are tons of ways around planking, don't complain about how you can't beat it. learn how to. Thats my take on the matter. If you don't think your character can answer it you may have to find a new character that can.
I have no issue with forcing my opponent to regrab the edge as fast as possible so that I can flat out DQ him for example.

In the end if we've truely explored the possibilities of planking and find it unbeatable it becomes your job as a comunity to set up messurable limiters to prevent it. This is just like the wobbling crap with melee. Get better folks.
 

Kuraudo

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Snake has no bad matchups. Olimar is debatable if it's even or disadvantage, but other than that he has no matchups worse than 45/55, which are very few. And 40/60 is not a bad matchup, a bad matchup is 35/65 or worse.
60/40, to me, signifies an uphill battle for you. Which makes it by default, bad to begin with.

Bad, but it could be worse, is what I should say, rather.
 

Nic64

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Snake being grounded and controlling the stage, from said ground with the cooking of grenades, C4 placement, and the like, complimented by the range on his attacks, shows that his best position is staying on the ground...
Correct, but you make it sound like he's invincible as long as he's touching the ground, he has more than one exploitable weakness.

Snake has no bad matchups. Olimar is debatable if it's even or disadvantage, but other than that he has no matchups worse than 45/55, which are very few.
DDD IMO, I'd agree that no other disadvantage is worse than that simply because Snake has the ridiculous "I get my *** kicked and still win by living forever and killing early" thing working for him.
 

BRoomer
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This is (unfortunately or not) a defining part of the metagame at this time. Entire tiers below A are almost made completely unviable beyond a doubt with these 'gay strategies'. This is of course, our perception, and many hope to be wrong. What I'm confused about is why you think it is wrong for us to come to realise that those strategies are defining the metagame now, and that in itself is shaping a lot of discussion and arguement. And until the definition of competitive smash for BRAWL is changed, playing gay (or the most effective) is the way the tier list is based.
the bolded is the type of logic I hate. I think this is the main reason why the tier list is so unvaluble and unreliable. You don't look at the characters as ndividuals unless they are A or higher. It seems no one in the BBR really investigate characters below a certian point because "it doesn't matter anyway." Obviously if you are only looking at ten of the 30+ characters you are going to miss a lot of information.

The month brawl came out we seperated characters into good and bad. Tons of the goods have fallen off, but never have we seen a bad character transend into the good chatagory. And how could we. The "bad" characters are rarely or poorly represented and crazily out numbered by the "good characters" probibility gives a very good idea of why we see a seemingly natural winning trend pops up.

If people actually looked deeper into the whole cast you'd find a lot of surprizes. I think way more characters are viable in high level play than people like to believe.

I type really slow. wonder what topic we are on now.
 

Shaya

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Well I think PT is definitely a cut above most other low tiers.

-

Oh, and you miss the point of the bold.
If characters can handle it, they're probably due to rise, over characters who cannot.
And if you completely disregarded all I said for "at a certain point we don't care", I am pretty crushed.
 

Nic64

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I think Sheik could make that jump, Fox too if he didn't get death combo'd by every other character. I still like playing Fox a lot...
 

Red Arremer

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@<3:
And your type of generalizing is what *I* hate.

No, the BBR does not only concentrate on A+ tiers. However, these characters are simply what ARE the most significant to the metagame, and you simply cannot deny that.

There's quite a few people who play characters in B and lower tiers. Edrees plays Ness, Ally plays Falcon, Xyro plays Samus, I play Fox, Ravyn plays Pit, and so on. That doesn't make these characters more significant to the metagame, though. And what Shaya says is right - there's little characters who can do anything about planking and are below B tier.
 

Dark 3nergy

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Dark.Pch has the right mindset.

If it's allowed in tourneys to some extent, playing gay, some forms of planking, the list goes on and on, sure...use it.

But until then, if that factors into a character's metagame, it's only going to leave the tier list inaccurate.

Say that we actually DID focus on the metagame of a character to their full potential without the use of playing gay, planking the stage, and etc., and some of your characters moved up or down because of it. Meta Knight will always be the best in the game, but god forbid Snake takes the spot. If you're allowed to play gay/run out the clock/plank still, that won't matter to you what changes or not.

At least, that's what I figure. Once we've gotten over the stall/plank factor in a character itself, and focused on what they have WITHOUT that, we'll begin to see where characters truly stand, from a competitively ranked aspect.

...

If...I didn't get your point at all, Dark.Pch and went off on some stupid tangent, sorry and feel free to smack me. /goes back to lurking

I agree. I think the more we study characters outside of tournie viable ones, the more we really learn about ourselves, our habits maybe, and what makes the character tick.

The fun part about using other characters is your moveset is slightly, possibly heavily, altered but you still have one or two things you learned from your main that will still apply to whatever character your on.


Ex; i use Bair's on Mario with the same time of spacing, wop principle i use on Kirby/DDD. While i dont get the multiple jumps i get with Kirby/DDD, I time and space Mario's Bair's to close down space, limit options and to punish my opponent while moving away from them.
 

humble

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...Except we know all the frame data, and hitboxes for everything we do; we have it all pretty much figured out, we went in and hacked the data itself to be sure.
 

BRoomer
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@Nic64: Trust me I'm working my *** off to get sheik recognized as a viable character.

@joel
And yeah I'm sorry I didn't mean to lump the whole of the BBR into one big group but I honestly feel that logic is wrong. There are tons of characters in A and S who can't answer planking. falco doesn't have an answer to planking, ICs don't have an answer to planking, wario, marth. Are they now bad characters? No.

As Sheik I can't imagine being edge camped by anything but we don't really do that down here in FL with a small handful of exceptions, lol.
 

Nic64

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I've heard that wario can throw his bike in such a way that it forces you off the edge long enough for him to steal it and hit you with invincibility frames or something, I haven't actually seen or experimented with it myself though and I've heard nothing of it for a long time...
 

-Mars-

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I think Sheik could make that jump, Fox too if he didn't get death combo'd by every other character. I still like playing Fox a lot...
Fox, Sheik, and Wolf are those characters imo that have all the tools to compete with the majority of the cast, they each just have major individual flaws that keep them from being really good characters. The thing with these characters though is that each of them have some fantastic matchups or neat little tricksies they can do on the better part of the cast that isn't indicative of their current placement.

But of course,Fox and Sheik are ridiculously light, Wolf and Fox get ***** by anything gay etc.

imo these three characters are very strong candidates to be placed in B tier.
 

BRoomer
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sheik wrecks pikachu except the chain grab. go zelda get up to what 40? 50? that should be easy getting camped is what zelda does best. Transform back. Combo the **** out of pika grab release into kill.
 

Shaya

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I don't think so.
Even without the cg Sheik has problems, at least, in my opinion.

Then there's the other problematic match ups:
Ice Climbers,
Ganondorf,
Olimar

And I personally despise any character with a strong fast nair (Luigi, Peach and Ness) whilst playing Sheik.
 

Dark.Pch

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A+ characters have been worked on and discussed too much. BBR needs to give them a break and work on the others in this game. I have heard too many times that if characters are not A+ material, they don't matter. One person in the BBR said this. I never knew who it was. But that was lame to hear a member in there say it.

Thus I question just what the BBR really does. Even characters as bad as ganon need to be looked. Everything matters.
 

Red Arremer

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And the opinion of ONE person in the BBR = the opinion of ALL people in the BBR.

Of course.

How could it be different.
 

Dark.Pch

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I thought we was done here? U mad? If you don't care what I have to say don't reply to what I say. I dont see other BBR getting but hurt with what I say . Me and Shaya are even cool like that but can at least talk about stuff like we have been and not be on period mode like you. It's my darn opinion. Get over it and stop being on period mode. Geez man.
 

Dark.Pch

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Yea, you are a prime example of it ans a waste of a member. I already took care of you and you are not important. You really wanna start this up again when I ended both you and this discussion? It's done, get over it.
 

Red Arremer

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No it's not done.

Look, I've said "The BBR does care about B Tier and below". I should know, I am in there after all. A handful of postings later you spread "The BBR only cares about A Tier and above".

Since I've said the complete opposite just a few posts before yours, I am assuming that you are intentionally spreading lies about the BBR just to make yourself look better. Otherwise, I cannot explain your behaviour.
 

Kuraudo

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Regardless of what goes on in the BBR, I'm not picking a side here, but...

You think a lot of this idea of "the BBR only cares about A Tier and above", and it influences the tier list, is because anyone A and higher are the only ones that are winning most big and notable tournaments? Or placing high, rather?
 
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