The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[ShadowLink84]

I don't think so.
Even without the cg Sheik has problems, at least, in my opinion.

Then there's the other problematic match ups:
Ice Climbers,
Ganondorf,
Olimar

And I personally despise any character with a strong fast nair (Luigi, Peach and Ness) whilst playing Sheik.

*slams into a brick wall while going at 200 mph*
Ow...

 

[Shaya]

DP, as you must understand, most of the regional-esque players care a lot about the risings of viability for more then just A+ characters.

I just don't think it's our responsibility to be giving individual character's the love they need. We'll never ignore anything that is actually defining of a character though.

And Spade/Joel is right, the BBR definitely has a lot of input and discussion of characters below A tier. But I don't think the BBR has ever sat down to try and make any character in A+ tier "better" than what they are, or discussed how to expand that A+ metagame. We discuss how a character change effects the metagame, or how a ruleset change would effect the metagame, or how something etc etc would effect the metagame. But we don't make the metagame, in most cases.

It's not the BBR's fault ADHD is really good at Diddy Kong.
Could say it's the BBR's fault that Diddy Kong is stronger in today's metagame with the current rule set than he would be a year ago... however.
-

Come on guys, Ganondorf wasn't obvious? =)

 

[Red Arremer]

Regardless of what goes on in the BBR, I'm not picking a side here, but...

You think a lot of this idea of "the BBR only cares about A Tier and above", and it influences the tier list, is because anyone A and higher are the only ones that are winning most big and notable tournaments? Or placing high, rather?

Basically, yes.

The current S and A Tier, respectively "High Tier", are the characters who are taking the majority of tournament wins or good placings. Pretty much only S Tier takes the wins from big and major event. Of course characters below them are taking wins or good placings sometimes, as well (Reflex with PT, Boss with Luigi, etc.), but their placements are occuring way less, therefore their impact on the metagame as a whole is less significant than those of S and A Tier.

This is also the reason why we decided with Tier List 3.0 to put a bigger emphasis on the High Tier characters, and paying more attention into ordering them more accurately than B Tier and below.

Of course changes have occured, such as the Ice Climbers being considered as S Tier contenders, or several Mid and Low Tiers getting explored to a bigger extent. Also, Shaya already mentioned it - the whole metagame in itself evolved, so those characters who haven't recieved any breakthrough discoveries or groundbreaking strategies (such as Marth who pretty much staled in this regard) still have been evolving.

I know that there is one or another person inside of the BBR who doesn't "care" about Mid or Low Tier characters, because of aforementioned reason - their significance to the overall metagame is just too small. However, this is not true for ALL BBRoomers, as there are quite a lot of people who main or regularly play characters from these lower tiers.

I hope I cleared this confusion up for you. If you have any more questions, feel free to shoot me a VM.

 

[Dark.Pch]

No it's not done.

Look, I've said "The BBR does care about B Tier and below". I should know, I am in there after all. A handful of postings later you spread "The BBR only cares about A Tier and above".

Since I've said the complete opposite just a few posts before yours, I am assuming that you are intentionally spreading lies about the BBR just to make yourself look better. Otherwise, I cannot explain your behaviour.

Is that right? You just can't let things go. You asked for it. I love dealing with People like you anyway.

I'm not buying that. Everytime I come in here and browse the thread, even when I don't post. It's mostly about high tiers, planking and playing gay. If this is denie by anyone, they are full of it. People go on about this alot. And oh how quick members of the BBR are to come and add on to this and even correct us. But when it comes to B tiers and below, where you boys at? You boys just don't want to talk about this as you told me. So you boys are ether lazy or just don't care. And in my eyes, you are not doing your job correctly. How the hell are people suppose to trust what you boys say? The rules you make and etc? For this, you seriiously think people won't question what you do and say? It's bad enough what goes on in there is private. Yet you wanna get mad when I say the BBR seriously does not care about B and below? Look at the stuff you say. And then hearing things like:

"Entire tiers below A are almost made completely unviable beyond a doubt"

I hate hearing stuff like this cause it is false. Just how would you people seriously know that? Really when you boys don't know alot about these characters and take them out in tournaments yourselves. And not a few times in tourny and not against your hard match ups. That is not proving anything. So lets be for real with this dude. Seriously. People are screwing up the metagame for this game more than improving and fixing it.

I am not doing this to make myself look better, seriously get that stuff out of your head and get over yourself already, this is getting old. From what I hear from the BBR and stupid comments that people such as yourself make, leads me to saying A tier is all you boys care and know about. Anything below that, you boys seriously lack it. Thats how I see it. Also, there was someone in the BBR that said High tiers is what matters, the rest of the characters don't matter. I don't know who was the idiot that said that but Thats a really stupid thing to say. Which made me question the logics and work of the BBR for a long time.

I'm pretty sure others in the BBR don't believe this. As well as members of this community. Which is fine. But you the one who keeps wanting to fight about this. I already put you on blast and ended this. If it was seriously not true, you let this crap go. My opinion.

You boys lack brains with these characters at high levels of play. And only care about A+ tiers. Freaking sue me for it. What I see, feel and hear from you boys lead to this.

 

[Kuraudo]

The way I'm looking at it though... Focusing on one section of the tier list is a terrible idea.

Without the lower tiers to beat, or some of those said lower tiers that match the higher ups, we don't have accuracy. Taking every single character into account, facing every single other character, and weighing out the options as their developed characters, is how a tier list should properly be made. Tourney results help, but it's the tip of the ice berg in comparison to the research that goes into the actual character itself and by (as lame as it sounds) scientific/metagame standards for how they compete.

It's come to my attention...

Low Tier tournaments, by this definition, are left inaccurate. Taking out the rest of the tier list, the ENTIRE assessment of how characters perform over one another changes. Numbers change, ratios of who wins the most over others change, but the Low Tier tournament rankings are taken into account falsely because we're left with the rest of the low tier, and how it looks WITH taking those higher tiers that are excluded, into account. Yet they're not there anymore. How do we know for certain how they stack up in an entirely different league without others to worry about? If that doesn't make sense, I'm sorry, but just go with me on this one, guys.

Focusing on one tier over the others is a false method of developing a competitive ranking for characters. Which makes me think, in some ways, that the 3.0 version that we currently look to, is inaccurate and subject to MASSIVE changes once every single character is taken into account, and not just based upon tourney results, but by how that character themself plays and wrecks. Or doesn't wreck. You never know.

--

tl;dr version? Don't focus on just one aspect.

Look at all.

[EDIT]

On a final note, if someone tells me that this is extremely difficult to do and that it takes time to assess that all to perfection, leaving only minor tweaks such as what we've seen for the past two games over years of metagame?

There is only one solution to it all.

We are not ready for an official tier list. Not yet.

 

[Dark.Pch]

DP, as you must understand, most of the regional-esque players care a lot about the risings of viability for more then just A+ characters.

Explain this more to me please

I just don't think it's our responsibility to be giving individual character's the love they need. We'll never ignore anything that is actually defining of a character though.

If you are working on tier list and even other parts of this game you need to know about all characters. You boys make the rules, tier list and all that. So to me, it is your responsibility to know about this stuff. You guys are in charge of this community. You make it what it is. You just can't be lazy and think stuff like this is not your responsibility. Really when we can see anything you boys discuss.

And Spade/Joel is right, the BBR definitely has a lot of input and discussion of characters below A tier. But I don't think the BBR has ever sat down to try and make any character in A+ tier "better" than what they are, or discussed how to expand that A+ metagame. We discuss how a character change effects the metagame, or how a ruleset change would effect the metagame, or how something etc etc would effect the metagame. But we don't make the metagame, in most cases.

I'm not asking you boys to make them BETTER. Thats the people who go to tournaments and own with them duty. I'm saying you pays need more brains in the BBR with this characters and more focus. The hell with A tiers. Same thing you see in tournies all the time and talked about. You boys discuss that here more than anything else. To learn how a character can can change affects of a meta game and all that stuff, you need to have a good amount of info in there about them to be discuss. Not the basic/average stuff.

It's not the BBR's fault ADHD is really good at Diddy Kong.
Could say it's the BBR's fault that Diddy Kong is stronger in today's metagame with the current rule set than he would be a year ago... however.

I don't understand how the rules would affect diddy kong. From the rule changes, I don't see a difference in him beasting. Explain this one to me.

 

[Red Arremer]

The way I'm looking at it though... Focusing on one section of the tier list is a terrible idea.

I agree, but I wasn't the one to decide how the tier list was going to be made.

Without the lower tiers to beat, or some of those said lower tiers that match the higher ups, we don't have accuracy. Taking every single character into account, facing every single other character, and weighing out the options as their developed characters, is how a tier list should properly be made. Tourney results help, but it's the tip of the ice berg in comparison to the research that goes into the actual character itself and by (as lame as it sounds) scientific/metagame standards for how they compete.

Keep in mind though that although you can theorycraft about, now just as a random thought-experiment, Jigglypuff being high tier, there is evidence needed. If Jigglypuff is really so good that she should be high tier, then you ought to prove it somehow. Because you can say stuff all day.
Tournament results and matches are evidence.

It's come to my attention...

Low Tier tournaments, by this definition, are left inaccurate. Taking out the rest of the tier list, the ENTIRE assessment of how characters perform over one another changes. Numbers change, ratios of who wins the most over others change, but the Low Tier tournament rankings are taken into account falsely because we're left with the rest of the low tier, and how it looks WITH taking those higher tiers that are excluded, into account. Yet they're not there anymore. How do we know for certain how they stack up in an entirely different league without others to worry about? If that doesn't make sense, I'm sorry, but just go with me on this one, guys.

No no. You understood me wrong, I'm sorry. I should've worded that better.

The tiers in which the characters are placed in are "correct" (though horribly outdated). It's the exact positioning of the characters that has been neglected by us. In order to represent the metagame, the question if Link is the worst character or Ganondorf doesn't really mean much. Is it really as important to know if Wolf is 22th-best and Fox 21th-best or vice versa as it is to know whether Meta Knight is 1st and Snake 2nd or vice versa?
Furthermore, the problem arises that due to the fact these characters don't show up so much at tournaments, we have little evidence (i.e. tournament matches, don't have to be results) we can use in order to gather enough factual information about matchups, performance, etc.

Focusing on one tier over the others is a false method of developing a competitive ranking for characters. Which makes me think, in some ways, that the 3.0 version that we currently look to, is inaccurate and subject to MASSIVE changes once every single character is taken into account, and not just based upon tourney results, but by how that character themself plays and wrecks. Or doesn't wreck. You never know.

I don't know where you people keep pulling the "only tournament results" from... it is explained word by word how this tier list was created right in the OP - BBRoomers voted on the characters. That's it. Whether or not the tournament results have influenced their votes is nothing anyone can answer but themselves.

As for the other part: Of course there will be massive changes. This tier list is over half a year old. The metagame has evolved drastically, and all characters with it. Some made groundbreaking discoveries, or had players show their capabilities in tournament play (e.g. Ice Climbers).

I don't know who will handle the new tier list project, and how they will work on it, so I cannot tell you whether or not we have to spare out the exact positioning of B Tiers and below. I hope we don't have to. But I'm not the one to decide that.

 

[Kuraudo]

It's cool man. There are many BBR members, and what I say is simply of one opinion and nothing to single out anyone. You're in the clear.

The Low Tier placing thing and how it's represented in low tier tourneys didn't pertain to this conversation as much as just mingling in the entire point I was trying to make. So over all, that point is moot, but what I said on that account makes sense to me.

I shouldn't say "only tourney results", but that is the biggest factor that's going into a character ranking. Friendlies are not something to account into how one places or so, but... Is that hard to ask for top professionals using their respective characters, if they are conducting research for tier placing, to try and not sandbag/play as they would in a tournament match? For the sake of resolving where a character truly stands, I don't think friendlies with the air of serious sets doesn't sound farfetched for retrieving evidence and handling a tier placement.

It's the best way to find out, considering how so little people in lower tiers compete, and if they do, are not placing as well otherwise. When we could be testing against every single character instead of the main tournament results we use where, someone could just be getting beat out and sent to loser bracket or knocked out by a Meta Knight or Snake, both of which are already established.

A change in how a tier list is formed, is what I think would be best, next go round.

Not directed at you, Joel, but anyone who looks at what I say about friendlies (taken seriously for the sake of determining ranks) and tries to mock me or call me an idiot on it?

I'd like to see you think of a better way for every pro of a character to face every other pro of a character in the game. realistically, getting all the pros of every character together is not likely, but competent players suffice in this situation.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't think so.
Even without the cg Sheik has problems, at least, in my opinion.

Then there's the other problematic match ups:
Ice Climbers,
Ganondorf,
Olimar

And I personally despise any character with a strong fast nair (Luigi, Peach and Ness) whilst playing Sheik.

Pika's CG only works up to around 50% so you can either platform camp or even use Zelda for the first part of your stock, then switch to Sheik.

The funny thing about Sheiks disadvantages(Icies, Pikachu, MK, G&W, etc.) is that on most of them she has GR>DACUS which makes the MU soooo much easier as it almost eliminates her kill problems.

Also the thing that people don't understand about Sheik-Pika, is that Pikachu ftilts really well so she can rack insane amounts of damage on pikachu and then finish him with a grab at 95%. You just play the MU like all characters do vs. the Ice Climbers. Not like your going to run into a lot of Pikachu's anyways.

 

[Zankoku]

I know I didn't just see Ganondorf next to Ice Climbers on a list of Sheik's bad matchups...

 

[Veggi]

He was just kidding around.

 

[Kuraudo]

Mmm, that thunderfoot~

 

[Red Arremer]

I know I didn't just see Ganondorf next to Ice Climbers on a list of Sheik's bad matchups...

Maybe he watched too much There Will Be Brawl.

 

[CHOMPY]

Whens the new brawl tier list going to come out?

 

[Kuraudo]

If we had to establish a new one, I think it'd be best saved for after Pound 4 and WHOBO 2.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If Sonic began to plank Falco, what would Falco do? nothing. He would just sit there and pray the Sonic user stopped. (We have a BS Uair its hilarious).

He'll just nair, remember Sonic has no priority.

J/k, but in reality that's one of the chief reasons I think Falco is overrated in the current metagame.

The only reason planking hasnt become a major issue, is because there is no method by which you can truly justify when it is occurring.
IMO you shouldnt need to grab the ledge more than 6 times in a row outside of being smacked away from it by your opponent.

Really? Cause I could swear it's happened to me on more then one occasion, Marth's game on the ledge sucks meaning you need tricks if you wanna get back reliably, and that certainly does not remove the obligation for a ban to be discrete and enforceable.

Edit: I agree on that Adumbrodeus, but the main reason people won't do it, is because we just doent want to be called the @$$hat.

I dunno, in the long term, isn't preventing us from finding out what's harmful to the metagame the a**hat thing to do?

Keep in mind though that although you can theorycraft about, now just as a random thought-experiment, Jigglypuff being high tier, there is evidence needed. If Jigglypuff is really so good that she should be high tier, then you ought to prove it somehow. Because you can say stuff all day.
Tournament results and matches are evidence.

Except by the logic of our tournament results, smoking makes you less likely to get cardiovascular disease...


No BS, I proved it in this thread, tournament results track centralization, not power in the metagame.

I don't think so.
Even without the cg Sheik has problems, at least, in my opinion.

Then there's the other problematic match ups:
Ice Climbers,
Ganondorf,
Olimar

And I personally despise any character with a strong fast nair (Luigi, Peach and Ness) whilst playing Sheik.

I knew it, a combination of the super-armor on his dash attack, his insane spacing game with with the massive (and disjointed hitbox) on his f-smash, and the various ways he can ground you for that warlock punch, not to mention how his uptilt is an instant shield break when used properly and has insane range in doing so...

Oh wait, we're not talking about Brawl-?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

its odd, my sheik usually doesn't have problems with lolimar, what is the reason why the matchup is bad just to wonder?

 

[-Mars-]

Lots of Oli mains think it's close to even, lots of Sheik mains think it's a really bad matchup. Who knows what the ratio is unless we see high level play of the matchup.

 

[Wulfy07]

Depends.

While I think planking should be banned, as it stands it is not in the SBR ruleset. Therefore on the tier list, I have to view things as no edge grab limit/anti planking rules in place. With that said, I have Falco, Dedede, and Olimar slightly lower, with G&W higher and Marth higher and Jiggs higher for lower tiered characters.

Most people still have Falco in the top 5. I am not that confident that he is top 5 with planking fully allowed. It allows MK/G&W/Marth to take a potentially even matchup and make it definitely in their favor, and it would allow characters like Jigglypuff to have decent prospects just because of planking.

I completely understand the point, but doesn't it obviously lead to the need of a planking cap? I mean, planking isn't exactly the most difficult thing to do in a game, but it takes away from the strategical aspect of the game breaking it down to something vaguely resembling tag. I also realize that planking shouldn't be banned altogether, but let's say it becomes the norm to have a planking cap (ie, 35 planks=auto lose if called, which several tournaments I know of have had), that would also affect the tier list. So, I'd like to know if the whole planking issue was considered in the last tier list and if there is any news on how the next list will consider the tactic? (So, will the list assume it's unlimited or with a cap or banned?)

@DMG:
Well, that's what I tried to do here, at least coming from my own perspective. I have posted and explained my opinion on certain matters in this very thread (which resulted in my well over 500 posts in here). All I got is a response like "you're not right", maybe with some more fluff, but basically that's it. The people didn't even give a thought about what I was saying, because if they did, they might have come to some conclusions or might have expanded my thought experiments. Or, alternatively, it was a response like "omg SBR sucks, you suck, only I know the most about my character lawl".

And that's exactly the reason why I stopped posting in here - additionally to the same questions being asked all the time.

True that average joe wouldn't know anything about their character in terms of placement outside of "he should be high cause I play him, duh!" Still, I would prefer that for lower tier characters for the BBR to consider consulting or asking players who are exceptional with that character to discuss placement. *While I agree with most of S/A tier, I take some issue with much of the lower portion of the list, which I realize the BBR doesn't spend much time discussing. To that end, it would be nice to have some consultation on these characters to see a more accurate list all around.

Tell me how I didn't know that, I assumed it had invincibility aerially too...

No. For example, a ness Dair verus MK's upB=tie. Ness goes flying horrizontally and MK gets Meteored. Such a win...

Guys cmon, everyone knows PT for S tier!11!!1 Reflex totally proves it.

*Cuts out sarcasm*
This statement is now officially true. PT is just barely number 6th, S tier, OMG!

 

[Wulfy07]

If we had to establish a new one, I think it'd be best saved for after Pound 4 and WHOBO 2.

I think that the lower tiers need updating and there are a few changes to the high tier but not too many. I'd say there is some logic to either choice (making or waiting) on the tier list.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He'll just nair, remember Sonic has no priority.

J/k, but in reality that's one of the chief reasons I think Falco is overrated in the current metagame.

**** right.

Really? Cause I could swear it's happened to me on more then one occasion, Marth's game on the ledge sucks meaning you need tricks if you wanna get back reliably, and that certainly does not remove the obligation for a ban to be discrete and enforceable.

I have never had to grab the ledge more than 6 times unless I get slapped off the stage again.

I dunno, in the long term, isn't preventing us from finding out what's harmful to the metagame the a**hat thing to do?

Akuma

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172830&page=497

Yays for minor advancement in Ike's game and yet more footstool shenanigans. /random.

 

[Chuee]

Ike sucks.
The end.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I have never had to grab the ledge more than 6 times unless I get slapped off the stage again.

You don't, my ledge-game is fracking terrible and if I didn't use whatever tricks I had at my disposal to get back at the top of the metagame.

Akuma

He got banned basically under the criteria that I'm stating should be applied to this, this example hurts my argument how?


My core assumption is "within the rules of the tournament", play to win attitude, do everything to win within the rules.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike sucks.
The end.

Better than your character.

 

[llamapaste]

You're just assuming he plays Lucas. He may not.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You don't, my ledge-game is fracking terrible and if I didn't use whatever tricks I had at my disposal to get back at the top of the metagame.

Its cause you suck

He got banned basically under the criteria that I'm stating should be applied to this, this example hurts my argument how

He was banned in a short amount of time in the US
In Japan he is soft banned

My core assumption is "within the rules of the tournament", play to win attitude, do everything to win within the rules.

SAme. im planking every Falco i see

 

[adumbrodeus]

Its cause you suck

No, it's because Marth sucks on the ledge. It was like the first thread on marth boards.

He was banned in a short amount of time in the US
In Japan he is soft banned

That's because in Japan soft-banning is basically equivalent to banning. His brokenness is known to all, they just don't do hard bans. That said, I'd play Akuma in Japan.

SAme. im planking every Falco i see

I agree, please do so. Join me and we shall plank Falco together FOREVER!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, it's because Marth sucks on the ledge. It was like the first thread on marth boards.

Most characters suck on the ledge.

That's because in Japan soft-banning is basically equivalent to banning. His brokenness is known to all, they just don't do hard bans. That said, I'd play Akuma in Japan.

THe recent tournament had an Akuma in the teams bracket.
Or was it some other tournament?

I agree, please do so. Join me and we shall plank Falco together FOREVER!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!

I have been practicing it for awhile too XD

 

[zeldspazz]

Ike sucks.
The end.

Lucas sucks.
The end.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zelda Reigns!!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Most characters suck on the ledge.

Marth sucks more, RICO lag ftl.

THe recent tournament had an Akuma in the teams bracket.
He did very well.

I said "basically".

I guess that's been sort of falling apart recently, but my understanding is that hard banning is simply not done. Period.

I have been practicing it for awhile too XD

Good, destroy those falcos with the STORM OF YOUR LOYALTY! (To sonic)

 

[zeldspazz]

Zelda Reigns Hyrule!!

fixed for ya ^.^

 

[Dark.Pch]

True that average joe wouldn't know anything about their character in terms of placement outside of "he should be high cause I play him, duh!" Still, I would prefer that for lower tier characters for the BBR to consider consulting or asking players who are exceptional with that character to discuss placement. *While I agree with most of S/A tier, I take some issue with much of the lower portion of the list, which I realize the BBR doesn't spend much time discussing. To that end, it would be nice to have some consultation on these characters to see a more accurate list all around.

Glad to see more people realizing this.

 

[★Chaos★]

toon link must conquer B-tier
lol
cant wait for the next tier list

 

[YagamiLight]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172830&page=497

Yays for minor advancement in Ike's game and yet more footstool shenanigans. /random.

Ike is bad and if you use him then you should feel bad.

tenjumpinfrontofQuickDraws

 

[Nidtendofreak]

ike Is Bad And If You Use Him Then You Should Feel Bad.

Tenjumpinfrontofquickdraws

:D Yays

10yays

 

[Wulfy07]

Glad to see more people realizing this.

Yes, but to be fair, I don't think that people who are experts at certain characters belong in BR. I do think that if the Backroom wanted info on unfamiliar characters that it wouldn't hurt to be informed by popping a PM to someone or talking to them in some way. I have no idea what the credentials for the back room are nor do I know how much you know about the game, but if you are the peach expert joke about you being, I would like BBR players who don't know about Peach to ask your opinion, or at least the opinion of people who do know about the character. Take or leave the advice given, sure, but consultation and other people's opinions don't hurt. Discussion can only improve the metagame and create a more accurate tier list in the long run.

 

[Feels]

I'm just wondering, but do you guys think Peach will be B Tier next Tier List?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm just wondering, but do you guys think Peach will be B Tier next Tier List?

I do, but I feel that Peach doesn't deserve it.