The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Magik0722]

THe recent tournament had an Akuma in the teams bracket.
Or was it some other tournament?

It was probably HD remix, akuma is legal in HDR

 

[adumbrodeus]

It was probably HD remix, akuma is legal in HDR

Not anymore. Glitch involving an unblockable string (80% of the time) that put him in not quite as bad a position, but still too far above the rest to remain legal.

Sirlin expressed a sincere desire to patch it.



Also, Japan tournament. It doesn't have HD remix.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yes, but to be fair, I don't think that people who are experts at certain characters belong in BR. I do think that if the Backroom wanted info on unfamiliar characters that it wouldn't hurt to be informed by popping a PM to someone or talking to them in some way. I have no idea what the credentials for the back room are nor do I know how much you know about the game, but if you are the peach expert joke about you being, I would like BBR players who don't know about Peach to ask your opinion, or at least the opinion of people who do know about the character. Take or leave the advice given, sure, but consultation and other people's opinions don't hurt. Discussion can only improve the metagame and create a more accurate tier list in the long run.

No one in the BBR has ever asked for my opinion and info on Peach. I can never be accepted in the BBR to begin with cause of how I am seen and for how I act according to peopleBut ether way I fight for my characters rights in here and in tournaments..

I do, but I feel that Peach doesn't deserve it.

And why would she not deserve it? Cause if you wanted to be real, I can name a few characters that seriously don't deverse where they are not. Then again, this is coming from a dude who does not think Peach is tourny vaible so...........

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats because how you act isnt conducive to the things that the SBR is trying to do.

you see them as a bunch of know-it-alls that make a tier list that you dont agree with, but thats far from all that they do.

and the other stuff that they DO do is either stuff you know nothing about (ex. where to place pikachu in relation to game and watch and olimar) or stuff you simply dont care about (ex. whether pictochat should be legal.

its cool and nice and all that you know 100% of everything about peach, but I would rather have somebody that knows 60-80% about every character and stage and ruling being made, than someone who only knows 100% on one character (and is EXTREMELY biased in doing so.

I dont think most people that matter care how you are seen, or what kind of image you put up to people, but the way you act doesnt in anyway constitute someone that should be in the back room. I come to this conclusion because you have on multiple occasions say stuff that someone who is in charge important rulings really shouldnt be saying.

'I only care about repping peach and getting her her due respect.'

statements like that are cool, for somebody who is a really good peach main and wants to do well in tourneys, but its not really going to work for someone who is supposed to be knowledgable on ALL characters and ALL stages to the point where they can make informed rulings on such matters.

as a friend, I would like to say that your constant bashing of the sbr and the constant painting of yourself as some kind of renegade for (peach related) justice is kind of annoying. You have been told many times why you arent in the sbr, and you have been told many times why things are the way they are and being done in such ways. trust me, I was there.

as such, just let it go, anyone who is worth anything knows that you are a good peach main, easily top five as far as im concerned, but you need to stop with the bashing and the mindless declarations of your own righteousness. its annoying.

 

[Deleted member]

But ether way I fight for my characters rights in here and in tournaments..
[/COLOR]

ARE YOU SERIOUS!?
Did you honestly say you fight for your character's RIGHTS!!!!!


Ive lost a lot of respect.
and maybe you should listen to others about peach too =P

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And why would she not deserve it? Cause if you wanted to be real, I can name a few characters that seriously don't deverse where they are not. Then again, this is coming from a dude who does not think Peach is tourny vaible so...........

She's so god**** slow, mobility-wise. Some fast moves with nice range and priority, great ability to combo, etc. Yeah, I got all of that. But her movement only allows her to either overwhelm certain characters with simple pressure moves or have them miss and get hit hard by something.

What happens when a character like Meta Knight or Snake just...walks away from you, or spams safe moves? Glide tossing can only get you so far. There isn't a lot she can do to approach many characters with ridiculously safe moves or characters that know how to run away well, whether to run the timer or just to play hit-and-run.

 

[deepseadiva]

She's so god**** slow, mobility-wise.

Just checking, you are considering Bonewalking when you say this right?

 

[Dark.Pch]

thats because how you act isnt conducive to the things that the SBR is trying to do.

you see them as a bunch of know-it-alls that make a tier list that you dont agree with, but thats far from all that they do.

and the other stuff that they DO do is either stuff you know nothing about (ex. where to place pikachu in relation to game and watch and olimar) or stuff you simply dont care about (ex. whether pictochat should be legal.

its cool and nice and all that you know 100% of everything about peach, but I would rather have somebody that knows 60-80% about every character and stage and ruling being made, than someone who only knows 100% on one character (and is EXTREMELY biased in doing so.

I dont think most people that matter care how you are seen, or what kind of image you put up to people, but the way you act doesnt in anyway constitute someone that should be in the back room. I come to this conclusion because you have on multiple occasions say stuff that someone who is in charge important rulings really shouldnt be saying.

'I only care about repping peach and getting her her due respect.'

statements like that are cool, for somebody who is a really good peach main and wants to do well in tourneys, but its not really going to work for someone who is supposed to be knowledgable on ALL characters and ALL stages to the point where they can make informed rulings on such matters.

as a friend, I would like to say that your constant bashing of the sbr and the constant painting of yourself as some kind of renegade for (peach related) justice is kind of annoying. You have been told many times why you arent in the sbr, and you have been told many times why things are the way they are and being done in such ways. trust me, I was there.

as such, just let it go, anyone who is worth anything knows that you are a good peach main, easily top five as far as im concerned, but you need to stop with the bashing and the mindless declarations of your own righteousness. its annoying.

Oh well..

ARE YOU SERIOUS!?
Did you honestly say you fight for your character's RIGHTS!!!!!


Ive lost a lot of respect.
and maybe you should listen to others about peach too =P

Ok. You are not important to me anyway to really care what you say or wether you respect me or not.

She's so god**** slow, mobility-wise. Some fast moves with nice range and priority, great ability to combo, etc. Yeah, I got all of that. But her movement only allows her to either overwhelm certain characters with simple pressure moves or have them miss and get hit hard by something.

What happens when a character like Meta Knight or Snake just...walks away from you, or spams safe moves? Glide tossing can only get you so far. There isn't a lot she can do to approach many characters with ridiculously safe moves or characters that know how to run away well, whether to run the timer or just to play hit-and-run.

*sigh* This mindset of 08-09............god man. -____- '

 

[Wulfy07]

*shrugs*
I see Reflex's point because that's been my general opinion about peach, but I'm not going to pretend I know anything about her to the point as to join the argument. So, to another note:

S Tier should only include 4 characters: Meta Knight, Snake, Falco, Diddy Kong. In that order (though I'm certain that DK and Falco will switch according to the SBR, but w/e). Discuss.

 

[Shaya]

2009 was only 6 days ago.
Actions speak louder than words DP.

Also from before,
It's not from the BBR that a player like ADHD has made Diddy Kong so great and a contender for top tier.
This is the same for all characters.
In other words, you say we need to be advancing the metagames of below A tier characters. No we shouldn't, and we don't, even for A+ tier chars.
When I mention rule set changes, once upon a time "Starters" and "Starter/Counter" included like what? nine stages. Now its realistically down to 3 main ones; all three being pretty good diddy stages. If the BBR's recommended ruleset had not swayed much over brawl's lifespan, diddy would be realistically weaker with the 'same metagame' before than he would now.

Whilst its known that "Below A tier" orders of characters in that tier are less important than those above.
That is because at this point of time, above A tier has had a lot more metagame developments than the majority below. Characters below with strong metagames (Peach, Lucario, Ike, for example) are making their abilities known to us, MOSTLY THROUGH TOURNAMENTS and through regional recognition by their BBR representatives.

Whilst no one/not many have ever PM'd you about Peach, you say that Praxis/Others talk to you on aim. And there's also the regional view from what you bring fourth through actions (example like <EC BBR Member> going "Hey DP played against a good Falco and so showed that match up isnt too bad, maybe even!").

We don't actively ignore characters.
However it wouldn't be a stretch that the metagame is based around A+ characters.
Those characters importance is obvious, they have proven they're viable. And your characters viability depends on how well you do against them.
If you can solidify Peach as having even/whatnot advantages with minimal disadvantages against A+ characters you're most likely worthy of being among them or near them. As I always say though, actions are louder than words.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just checking, you are considering Bonewalking when you say this right?

Yes, I am. Pulling a turnip isn't a particularly threatening tactic, no matter how quickly it's done. It limits her options, too, since grabbing and jabbing aren't possible afterward.

I'm not saying that it doesn't have its uses, but it's not the godsend that allows her to approach players with little trouble, either.

*sigh* This mindset of 08-09............god man. -____- '

It has nothing to do with a mindset. It's understanding how the game works.

 

[Frown]

dsjfhskdjfudshfiusdhfhsdjf peach discussion

This guy.

He should move up imo.

Because of range etc.

 

[Dark.Pch]

It has nothing to do with a mindset. It's understanding how the game works.

Wrong. All you go and care about is speed. and let that lead to everything. DDD is not that quick and he is one of the best on the game. Stop letting speed be the OMG truth for everything. That is more to a character to own then speed. Cause if you wanted to play this weak game, Peach would lose to sonic and Falcon. Same would go for other characters Vs them that beat sonic and Falcon.

- Bowser and Ganon have power, yet get thier butts handed to them. Power is not everything
- Sonic and Falcon have speed, yet they get whooped. Speed is not everything
- Ike is Strong and can kill early, But his moves are just to hard to land. And laggy
- Peach has a good pressure game and can rack up damage quick. And is really good at edgeguarding and versitale. She has alot of tools. Guess what, with all that, she is still be tier. And qualities like this are more of a tier material. And still can get her *** handed to her.
- Falco is a solid character with a good camping and up close game. But once that dude is off the stage or start tossing him around, he is in serious trouble. Space animals get it bad when out side the stage.

Do you seriously just focus so much on one thing (in this case speed) And buss aside the other stuff that can make up for it? And peach is not even all that slow. You are seriously over doing it. You clam you understand how the game works. Yet you go on about one thing and act like other stuff does not matter cause speed is everything. Cause by you logic, DDD and a few other characters should drop alot on the tier list are seriously not that good at all.

 

[Meru.]

Peach's speed is a problem?!?! WHAT?! I do not take a big part at discussing or debating Peach because

Actions speak louder than words DP.

and I rather get good and prove what she can, but really, I can assure you that Peach's speed is really not a problem at all.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Why do people still think Falcos recovery is bad lol

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Why do people still think Falcos recovery is bad lol

Falco is easily gimped, that is a fact. It is his most prominent weakness.

A good Falco will avoid gimps so that they rarely or almost never happen, but that doesn't make him have a good recovery. While it's not like he's Wolf or Link, his recovery is undeniably poorer than just about every other viable tournament character.

That doesn't make him bad, but to ignore the fact that his recovery is one of the absolute worst of the "good" characters would just be ridiculous.

 

[DanGR]

Falco is easily gimped, that is a fact. It is his most prominent weakness.

A good Falco will avoid gimps so that they rarely or almost never happen, but that doesn't make him have a good recovery. While it's not like he's Wolf or Link, his recovery is undeniably poorer than just about every other viable tournament character.

That doesn't make him bad, but to ignore the fact that his recovery is one of the absolute worst of the "good" characters would just be ridiculous.

That's a pretty silly thing to say.

You say good Falco players rarely ever get gimped yet he still has a horrible recovery?

What? Think about that.

He's got a good recovery- not great, but it gets him back a good bit of the time.

He's got three different phantasm cancel spots he can land at... limited spots you can hit him out of it, plus a nice, quick jump to elevate him to whichever height he wants to begin a phantasm at. That and firebird, which while still bad, it creates more options, which is always a plus.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's a pretty silly thing to say.

You say good Falco players rarely ever get gimped yet he still has a bad recovery?

What?

No it is not silly. Cause cause you don't get gimped or know how to avoid it, does not mean you recovery is good.

 

[Nic64]

Falco's recovery isn't that bad...I think Snake, Diddy, DDD, Olimar, IC's, and ROB are all easier to gimp(as MK at least), so I wouldn't consider him anywhere near worst of good characters.

Although I am aware that ROB is pretty much impossible to gimp for most other characters and is just oddly easy for Meta Knight, so that's just my perspective...

 

[MetalMusicMan]

That's a pretty silly thing to say.

You say good Falco players rarely ever get gimped yet he still has a bad recovery?

What?

Good Marth players rarely get gimped, yet his recovery is still poor compared to everyone but Falco and maybe Diddy. It's no different than MK players avoiding kill moves so that despite their light weight, they don't die early.

You can't say that a CHARACTER's issues are nullified because the PLAYER is good. Character flaws are manageable and everyone must learn to work around them, but that doesn't make them go away.

No it is not silly. Cause cause you don't get gimped or know how to avoid it, does not mean you recovery is good.

Exactly.

 

[DanGR]

No it is not silly. Cause cause you don't get gimped or know how to avoid it, does not mean you recovery is good.

Good Marth players rarely get gimped, yet his recovery is still poor compared to everyone but Falco and maybe Diddy. It's no different than MK players avoiding kill moves so that despite their light weight, they don't die early.

You can't say that a CHARACTER's issues are nullified because the PLAYER is good. Character flaws are manageable and everyone must learn to work around them, but that doesn't make them go away.

I'd argue that BECAUSE all of the good Falco players are able to recover easily with "such a horrible recovery" that it isn't such a bad recovery in the first place.

It's not like a normal character flaw on stage that you have to work around. They're working WITH it, and recovering with it WELL.

Either that or NO ONE knows how to gimp them properly, which is an absurd conclusion to come to. I dare you to just go and tell Dojo (or any other good player) he's not smart enough to figure out how to gimp DEHF and see his response.

edit: *sigh* If you're going to argue that all of the good Falco players are just flat out much better than their opponents, are outsmarting them, and/or are "out-predicting" them by big enough of a margin that they're able to recovery easily, I really have no way to counter that objectively. I can't realistically find out how much skill these players have in comparison with their opponents. In my experience Falco has a good recovery, and I pointed out a good bit of his options in my previous post. <.<

 

[SnackAttack]

thats because how you act isnt conducive to the things that the SBR is trying to do.

you see them as a bunch of know-it-alls that make a tier list that you dont agree with, but thats far from all that they do.

and the other stuff that they DO do is either stuff you know nothing about (ex. where to place pikachu in relation to game and watch and olimar) or stuff you simply dont care about (ex. whether pictochat should be legal.

its cool and nice and all that you know 100% of everything about peach, but I would rather have somebody that knows 60-80% about every character and stage and ruling being made, than someone who only knows 100% on one character (and is EXTREMELY biased in doing so.

I dont think most people that matter care how you are seen, or what kind of image you put up to people, but the way you act doesnt in anyway constitute someone that should be in the back room. I come to this conclusion because you have on multiple occasions say stuff that someone who is in charge important rulings really shouldnt be saying.

'I only care about repping peach and getting her her due respect.'

statements like that are cool, for somebody who is a really good peach main and wants to do well in tourneys, but its not really going to work for someone who is supposed to be knowledgable on ALL characters and ALL stages to the point where they can make informed rulings on such matters.

as a friend, I would like to say that your constant bashing of the sbr and the constant painting of yourself as some kind of renegade for (peach related) justice is kind of annoying. You have been told many times why you arent in the sbr, and you have been told many times why things are the way they are and being done in such ways. trust me, I was there.

as such, just let it go, anyone who is worth anything knows that you are a good peach main, easily top five as far as im concerned, but you need to stop with the bashing and the mindless declarations of your own righteousness. its annoying.

Quoted for truth!

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'd argue that BECAUSE all of the good Falco players are able to recover easily with "such a horrible recovery" that it isn't such a bad recovery in the first place.

It's not like a character flaw, where you have to work around it. They're working WITH it, and recovering with it WELL.

Either that or NO ONE knows how to gimp them properly, which is an absurd conclusion to come to.

Thats them being smart with the characters recovery. Not the recovery being good itself. Smart lin kplayers can make it back with thier recovery and hardy get gimped. Does this mean his recovery is bad ***?

You can actually force Falco to recover in a certain way and you can punish him for it. His recover is not good and he can be punished easily for it.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Falcos often die from getting hit out of their second jump, DI'ing correctly, but then not being able to make it back with the Side-B alone. I'm not sure you could call this a gimp, but it is not something that people like DeDeDe, MK, Kirby, Pit, ROB, or other characters with "great" recoveries hardly ever have to deal with. Heck, it's not even something that people with moderately good recoveries have to deal with most of the time in Brawl.

Thats them being smart with the characters recovery. Not the recovery being good itself. Smart lin kplayers can make it back with thier recovery and hardy get gimped. Does this mean his recovery is bad ***?

You can actually force Falco to recover in a certain way and you can punish him for it. His recover is not good and he can be punished easily for it.

Once again, exactly, and thank you.

 

[-Mars-]

I saw SK92 get gimped on all three of his stocks in a match against havok a couple weeks ago. Falco's recovery still blows and he might not get gimped all the time but unless your half asleep you should be at least adding some damage on his recovery attempts every once in a while.

 

[DanGR]

Dark.Pch & MetalMusicMan, I editted my post. <.<

I saw SK92 get gimped on all three of his stocks in a match against havok a couple weeks ago. Falco's recovery still blows and he might not get gimped all the time but unless your half asleep you should be at least adding some damage on his recovery attempts every once in a while.

Meta Knight makes everyone's recovery look bad, lol.

Smart lin kplayers can make it back with thier recovery and hardy get gimped. Does this mean his recovery is bad ***?

That does not happen.

And it's because his recovery is extremely poor. I don't care if Legan or Random14837359 upbs. I'll still throw my body at him or grab the ledge, and he won't be able to recover.

 

[da K.I.D.]

how does throwing your body at links up b accomplish anything even semi related to gimping him?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd argue that BECAUSE all of the good Falco players are able to recover easily with "such a horrible recovery" that it isn't such a bad recovery in the first place.

It's not like a normal character flaw on stage that you have to work around. They're working WITH it, and recovering with it WELL.

Either that or NO ONE knows how to gimp them properly, which is an absurd conclusion to come to. I dare you to just go and tell Dojo (or any other good player) he's not smart enough to figure out how to gimp DEHF and see his response.

IMO, his recovery is asking for an "if/else" chain, cause he has a number of options that make it difficult to predict what he's gonna do if you don't do it in a calculated way.


The further the metagame goes, the more dysmal his recovery will look, just like in melee, I guarantee you.

 

[Dark.Pch]

2009 was only 6 days ago.
Actions speak louder than words DP.

Not excatly what I ment with the 09 comment dude. I pretty much ment that people still go on with the whole Peach can't kill and all that crap. Even after people have done good with Peach in tournaments. Me at SNES and Eddreese at GNES. Yet people still wanna talk like this and even make excuses. And In relfexes cause, going on and on about speed with this character. Completely ignoring the other things about Peach that make her good and B tier material. All this dude seems to care about is speed. So whats why I said that.

And yea actions do speak louder than words. and I have sworn that in the summer of 09. And will do it big at pound 4. But I bet you this will still countinue with stuff people/Reflexes says. There will always be some excuse cause people just don't want to belive it.

Also from before, It's not from the BBR that a player like ADHD has made Diddy Kong so great and a contender for top tier. This is the same for all characters. In other words, you say we need to be advancing the metagames of below A tier characters. No we shouldn't, and we don't, even for A+ tier chars. When I mention rule set changes, once upon a time "Starters" and "Starter/Counter" included like what? nine stages. Now its realistically down to 3 main ones; all three being pretty good diddy stages. If the BBR's recommended ruleset had not swayed much over brawl's lifespan, diddy would be realistically weaker with the 'same metagame' before than he would now.

For people to show about what characters can really do is the ones that go to tournies and beast with them. And for a tier list to be made, you need to have people in the BBR to explain the brains of characters the BBR lacks. That is what I am getting at. You boys can talk about high tiers alot. I see it all the time here. But when it comes to characters below that, it is kinda weak or other members of this site have to correct you on it. And for that, you boys can never make a legit tier list. To me if you gonna be lazy with the list, best not make one at all.

Example: What Sonic player (or in general) you have in there that can **** a sonic discussion in thereto give sonic a LEGIT placement? Who there would could do more than ShadowLink as with Sonic in this thread?

Whilst its known that "Below A tier" orders of characters in that tier are less important than those above. That is because at this point of time, above A tier has had a lot more metagame developments than the majority below. Characters below with strong metagames (Peach, Lucario, Ike, for example) are making their abilities known to us, MOSTLY THROUGH TOURNAMENTS and through regional recognition by their BBR representatives.

I'm finding that hard to believe that. Ike is better than wear he is now. People still speak about Peach like this game just game out and going on about the same thing all the time when Peach players have beasted in tournaments. Like people make excuses cause they seriously don't wanna see Peach as a good character, which is stupid. This can be said for other characters as well.

Whilst no one/not many have ever PM'd you about Peach, you say that Praxis/Others talk to you on aim. And there's also the regional view from what you bring fourth through actions (example like <EC BBR Member> going "Hey DP played against a good Falco and so showed that match up isnt too bad, maybe even!").

I don't talk to Praxis on aim or in general about Peach. And if I talk to other Peach players, I give them advice about Peach and help them get better with her. No one in the BBR ever came to me. And I would guess cause you have Edreese, Praxis and Sky, who are all WC Players. You have people repping the character from one region only. Edreese is still a smart dude but he does not play like that anymore. Sky does not know all that much with Peach or hardly uses her in tournies and place well. All you have left is Praxis. And he is WC. You got insite from one Region. EC is also good and have a different expereince with this character than WC. Different play style and different things that has been done with the character. Which could explain why I hear the same thing with this character all the time from the BBR. or in general since Praxis and the other WC Peach players are in there.

But ether way this can go for alot of characters as I said before. This is not just mainly about Peach.

We don't actively ignore characters. However it wouldn't be a stretch that the metagame is based around A+ characters. Those characters importance is obvious, they have proven they're viable. And your characters viability depends on how well you do against them. If you can solidify Peach as having even/whatnot advantages with minimal disadvantages against A+ characters you're most likely worthy of being among them or near them. As I always say though, actions are louder than words.

So because A+ tiers are important that means to not give an equal attention to the rest below that? Again how you expect to make a legit tier list? And that has been my point this whole time. Ok these same boring characters is what you see at tournaments all the time and place well and are so called important. Other characters in this game compete too. And even beaten these over used important characters.

A Ness and a Fox Has beaten tyrants meta. But ness and Fox are not as important as A+ tier. So who cares right? Thats what I hear right now. Or there would be some excuse to why tyrant lost to these characters.

This is not about being worthy. This is not about characters being important. This about actually learning about each character to a full extent. When you make a tier list with every character in the game, you make sure you focus on every character in the game. Not work on making the important ones on point and then just juggle the rest below on placement. For that just make a tier list about A+ tiers and screw the others since they are not that important. I don't care if Peach was important or not . I don't care if Link was important or not. But they need to be in the right spots they should be in. And not be lazy or not have full info on these characters.

 

[Frown]

^ I was like that once. I really thought Yoshi deserved to move up because I was "experienced with him" and I knew about "his full potential". If it wasn't for the fact that I wasn't very good at English at the time, I would have argued about tiers equally as much as Pch is doing right now.

Then I realized that I was just another Smash Journeyman and I was arguing against a list made by the most experienced people on the boards.

 

[adumbrodeus]

IMO Shadowlink's best qualification is not his knowledge of Sonic, it's his extensive knowledge of the game and his very logical mind.

 

[Coffee™]

She has alot of tools. Guess what, with all that, she is still be tier. And qualities like this are more of a tier material.

Peach is probably never going to end up in A tier. She's good but definitely not good enough to break A tier. On the current tier list the only characters above her that she "might" be better than are Kirby, R.O.B and DK. I'm pretty sure there are also characters under her that might even be worth being higher.

 

[Laem]

^ I was like that once. I really thought Yoshi deserved to move up because I was "experienced with him" and I knew about "his full potential". If it wasn't for the fact that I wasn't very good at English at the time, I would have argued about tiers equally as much as Pch is doing right now.

Then I realized that I was just another Smash Journeyman and I was arguing against a list made by the most experienced people on the boards.

but.. but.. DP is a Smash Legend!! xD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wrong. All you go and care about is speed. and let that lead to everything. DDD is not that quick and he is one of the best on the game. Stop letting speed be the OMG truth for everything. That is more to a character to own then speed. Cause if you wanted to play this weak game, Peach would lose to sonic and Falcon. Same would go for other characters Vs them that beat sonic and Falcon.

You misunderstand me.

Speed is not the same as inherent worth.

All I'm saying is that characters have to meet a barline of speed to be competitively viable at the top of the metagame.

Part of Dedede's ability comes from having the fastest fastfall in the entire game. His rolls are quick and have great distance on them, and he can use his ridiculous grab or quick KO moves with great range immediately out of them. He has speed that allows him to compete.

Bowser doesn't have it in Melee, despite having lots of other really good traits, so he isn't competitively viable.

Peach doesn't have it in Brawl, despite having lots of other really good traits, so she isn't competitively viable.

I guess if people -want- to constantly put themselves at risk in a situation where they can make you come to them (which is not thinking at the top of the metagame), then Peach can tear people a new one.

If people make the most of their ability to stay safe, I don't see Peach overcoming many characters in the end.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

The further the metagame goes, the more dysmal his recovery will look, just like in melee, I guarantee you.

Very accurate assessment.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You misunderstand me.

Speed does not make inherent worth.

All I'm saying is that characters have to meet a barline of competitive viability at the top of the metagame.

Bowser doesn't have it in Melee, despite having lots of other really good traits, so he isn't competitively viable.

Peach doesn't have it in Brawl, despite having lots of other really good traits, so she isn't competitively viable.

I guess if people -want- to constantly put themselves at risk in a situation where they can make you come to them (which is not thinking at the top of the metagame), then Peach can tear people a new one.

If people make the most of their ability to stay safe, I don't see Peach overcoming many characters in the end.

Peach has not yet been exposed to her full extend in tournies. And her meta game just keeps growing. Up air chain was discovered not too long ago, and that is being worked on to her metagame. Making matches a lil easier. Wolf gets 0-death with this.

And this is brawl, seems like you think Peach would be the only one that would have to chase people. People love to camp, play gay and run like cowards. I been through this many times and beaten it. I use what tools my characters has to deal with this. I work with what I got. And from what I hear from you all the time is "Peach is so slow, just run and camp her, plank her and play can, she really can't do anything about it." Thats false.

 

[Fino]

I came here cause I saw d.pch posted... I figured he would be crying about peach being good.
I was right =D
*leaves thread*

 

[<π]

dsjfhskdjfudshfiusdhfhsdjf peach discussion

This guy.

He should move up imo.

Because of range etc.

I agree, and while I'd say you should have put a little more than a picture and a half of a statement to back the idea up Link is definitely one of the most underrated characters right now. Obviously no one is out there really proving it and I don't really plan to myself, but links strengths are all but ignored right now. Some much so that you can't even debate the idea of link being "decent" with out being called out for trolling.
I'd love to have a serious discussion about link one day...

Wrong. All you go and care about is speed. and let that lead to everything. DDD is not that quick and he is one of the best on the game. Stop letting speed be the OMG truth for everything. That is more to a character to own then speed. Cause if you wanted to play this weak game, Peach would lose to sonic and Falcon. Same would go for other characters Vs them that beat sonic and Falcon.

Mmm...I think speed pretty much is everything in this game after mindgames.

I think of it like this:if we measure distance traveled as time we get what I like to call practicle range. If it takes you 10 frames to get to me but my ten frame move hits 15 frames away I'm safe using that move. that is why slower characters like Ike can hold their own against MK because even though he is slow his range negates MK's ground speed. Some characters great range but bad practical range. Gdorf's uptilt has huge range and kill power but despite that it's horrible start up means it is impractical. conversely links fsmash has slower start up but large enough range to be safe even on whiff against most of the cast.

I don't know... me blabbin'

 

[Nic64]

Ike can do what now

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Link is definitely under rated. I've had a lot of experience playing Legan, almost once a week for 2 years now, and I can say with 100% confidence that Link should definitely be rated higher than he is. He's probably barely mid tier at best, but still, he is a LOT better than where he is currently placed. Same goes for Jiggs.

Sadly, Link just requires way too much time to learn for far less reward when compared to many other characters, so he will probably never get the representation that he needs to be raised in the tier list.