The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[:mad:]

Lol I hope DK falls to 37th place eventually.

I hope Sonic falls to 37th place eventually.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

Good **** for falcon
xD

 

[Cook Kirby]

I hope Sonic falls to 37th place eventually.

That would still be too good for him.

 

[kr3wman]

C Tier? Seriously!? With that crazy chaingrab of his he's gonna have his own Inui tier.

Yes but the immense amount of johns technical skills the player has to memorize to play Inui well is probably gonna keep him bottom to low.

 

[Shadow102]

Lol I doubt DK will get a very low spot on the tier list. XD I knew Captain Falcon was better then Gannondorf. XD

 

[fkacyan]

So just because she moved up a few spots means the pattern will continue?
What makes you believe she'll be higher?

Sonic was like bottom 5 in the first tier list, and now he's 13th worst. Does that mean he'll take 12th place next tier list?

ZSS has reached her peak. It's either downhill, or no movement from here on out.

The number of good ZSS players has barely changed, if at all, from a year ago.

If those players have been enough to boost her tier position, yes, I think the pattern will continue.

Anyways, tier debates are meaningless. A 'tier list' is decided the moment a game is finalized in the sense that how good a character is, in the full metagame the game has to offer, is never going to change; lists like this are merely what we believe to be the closest to that exact potential each character has.

All that matters is results, your interpretation is useless.

 

[c3gill]

Lucas ftw in low tier tournaments

Zelda / Bowser / PT / Ike are too high for low tier anyway

 

[LordoftheMorning]

WOW, the sonic boards did sum work, son! Good steak, and all that.

Lucario has been pretty lazy lately, so it figures >_>.

Fox and Sheik are getting some moar love, which is good, because they're both amazing characters.

Diddy's placement is pretty crazy, imo. Wow.

Pretty exciting tier list.

 

[Squire Grooktook Z]

I'm one happy panda.

 

[zCasanova]

. . . while characters in Tiers B through F may be, to some point, considered near each other in level when in the same tier, the same should not be applied to those in Tiers S and A. Meta Knight was overall voted better than Snake, who was overall voted above Wario, who was overall voted over Falco, and so on.

This list fails to show the gap that divides MK from Snake, and both of them from the rest of the cast. Aren't tiers supposed to be groupings of characters belonging to similar levels of play? That isn't what this shows at all—the common Smasher won't pay any attention to the actual data at the bottom—data, which isn't minutely reflected in the preceding tier list.

1 Meta Knight

...

6.21 King Dedede

How do the scores 6.21 and 1 constitue being in the same tier?

Forget about the characters, how are those numbers even considered close enough to be placed together?

. . . Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, and Dedede were deemed strong enough characters to join S Tier.

When those four characters start winning as many tournaments as #1 & #2, let me know—they're in the same tier.

 

[MBlaze]

Knew Diddy, Sonic and Wario were moving up.

 

[Fire!]

Falcon is out of the depths. Wow at Sonic.

I'm surprised at Wario though. Passing Falco at least.

 

[sasook]

there are characters in S and A tier that lose worse to other characters. Educated yourself. Diddy vs Peach, Diddy vs Luigi, Ice Climbers vs. Link, (actually Diddy vs a good portion of mid tier) Dedede vs Zelda, ROB vs Fox, Wario vs Peach, and those are just off the top of my head.

It's even, 50/50. The only reason the IC boards consider it in Link's favor is because bombs get us out of the infinite. Whoohoo....any IC that knows how to do anything besides infinite will have the advantage on him. It's just that most of the IC know how to infinite and nothing else, so they consider it in our favor.

 

[Knubs.]

W00t. Falcon is not at the complete bottom. xD.

 

[DMG]

ZSS' matches with Luigi and Sheik are annoying, but there are characters in S and A tier that lose worse to other characters. Educated yourself. Diddy vs Peach, Diddy vs Luigi, Ice Climbers vs. Link, (actually Diddy vs a good portion of mid tier) Dedede vs Zelda, ROB vs Fox, Wario vs Peach, and those are just off the top of my head.

Diddy doesn't lose to Luigi, that is a misunderstood matchup (actually a lot of Luigi's matchups are misunderstood by one side or the other). I've talked to ADHD myself and after some discussion I think we both agreed that Luigi actually loses to Diddy. I've talked to other Diddy's and they think they jumped the gun on Luigi.

Ice Climbers, like someone has previously touched on, beat Link. Dedede vs Zelda actually isn't that bad, ROB vs Fox is... probably ROB's favor. I say probably because even though I think ROB wins the matchup, I don't want to underestimate Fox as a character.

Wario vs Peach is arguably even. I've not faced a high level Peach with Wario simply because I'd prefer to use someone with a clear, comfortable advantage over her, like G&W or Marth. We don't have a lot of matches with good Wario/Peaches playing each other, and the ones we do have don't include Wario playing extreme keep away. Once I go over the matchup more with someone like Kosmos, I'll decide whether I think it's even or not.

I also don't think ZSS actually loses to Luigi, I don't see that matchup being even either but that's just me. I could understand Shiek being tough though, she's underrated.

 

[Suspect]

Sorry but as a weegee player i see the matchup with diddy even

I also do good against ZSS with him, i find it rather easy...

we dont mis understand our match-ups people just dont know our character....besides us >_>

even the power of steak cannot understand the power of pedo

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Congrats Sonic mains. Finally did it lol

 

[DMG]

Lol no trust me I know what Luigi is capable of.

I had a long discussion on the Snake boards a bit back regarding Snake vs Luigi, and I pinpointed Luigi's biggest weakness (Aside from sliding really far back in his shield which is almost completely a disadvantage, and the fact that his range is kinda meh overall). Luigi, in almost every matchup, is approaching his opponents. This wouldn't be that big of an issue IF he was actually good at approaching people. The truth is, he's really not.

Luigi has to get inside his opponents range against most characters. He has to work pretty hard to do this. He doesn't move fast horizontally in the air, so it's not only easy to see him coming, but he can't chase down people like Wario or Jigglypuff can with their air movement. He doesn't have an amazing airdodge like Wario, nor the mobility to steer it around with great success. He doesn't have a lot of range, so he can't really poke at people from longer distances on the ground or in the air.

In the air, a lot of characters can literally walk backwards, and move faster doing this than Luigi moves in the air. Others can even roll backwards if they feel super threatened, and all Luigi can do to even try to punish it would be to get down to the ground fast enough and Down B.

Once Luigi gets inside someones range and lands a hit, he can become quite a force. The issue is actually getting to that point where you are that close to your opponent without being sent flying. Wario has to deal with this, and he does so for the most part with great success. He can SH Airdodge, move behind an opponent, and then move in front of them while still being invincible. He can use his mobility to Dair someone's shield and then back off if he is in danger. Luigi... can't really do anything of that nature to get really close to someone safely. Wario can compensate for his poor range by being so good at getting opponents into close combat. Luigi can't do that.

I don't wanna sound like I think Luigi is bad only because he's not comparable to Wario, but it's easier to see Luigi's weaknesses when you slightly compare him to someone who also has to approach a lot, but has better tools to do so. I just don't see how a character, who doesn't have a lot of range, who struggles to approach people due to his poor range and bad mobility, can do extremely well in a game that strongly rewards opponents for camping/trying to punish others approaching instead of approaching for yourself.

 

[Zankoku]

This list fails to show the gap that divides MK from Snake, and both of them from the rest of the cast. Aren't tiers supposed to be groupings of characters belonging to similar levels of play? That isn't what this shows at all—the common Smasher won't pay any attention to the actual data at the bottom—data, which isn't minutely reflected in the preceding tier list.

Data, which is based entirely on averaging votes. Time and again I've noted the problems of attempting to objectively handle numbers which were reached entirely subjectively. Yes, completely disregarding data is bad, but letting numbers rule your decisions entirely isn't much better.

How do the scores 6.21 and 1 constitue being in the same tier?

Forget about the characters, how are those numbers even considered close enough to be placed together?

When the possible scores range from 1 to 13, I'd say being in the top half isn't terribly unwarranted.

 

[bigman40]

DMG, can you give me your thoughts on Yoshi? It'll give me some time to kill right now hearing what people say about him other than the typical one-liners.

 

[momochuu]

It's even, 50/50. The only reason the IC boards consider it in Link's favor is because bombs get us out of the infinite. Whoohoo....any IC that knows how to do anything besides infinite will have the advantage on him. It's just that most of the IC know how to infinite and nothing else, so they consider it in our favor.

No. It's 55:45 in our favor and that's being nice. I don't think many (good) ICs think it's in Link's favor. Blah, I need to update that OP ASAP.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The number of good ZSS players has barely changed, if at all, from a year ago.

If those players have been enough to boost her tier position, yes, I think the pattern will continue.

Anyways, tier debates are meaningless. A 'tier list' is decided the moment a game is finalized in the sense that how good a character is, in the full metagame the game has to offer, is never going to change; lists like this are merely what we believe to be the closest to that exact potential each character has.

All that matters is results, your interpretation is useless.

God**** I wish I had female parts so I could have your babies.

This is the **** I have been saying since like almost a year ago.

 

[Ryusuta]

While I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said about Luigi, Dr. Mario Guy, I also can't help but think that if someone had phrased those exact same arguments against Luigi on the previous versions of the tier list, they would have been either mercilessly flamed or ignored outright. (Not by you, but in general.)

Well, better late than never!

 

[Commander_Beef]

ROB vs Fox is... probably ROB's favor. I say probably because even though I think ROB wins the matchup, I don't want to underestimate Fox as a character.

I know the matchup as a Rob secondary...give me a legitimate reason why the matchup in robs favor please..

 

[philbobjoe]

Best tier list yet!

 

[The Sex Puma]

Best tier list yet!

This. I'm satisfied with the place Wario has, and I knew Falco had been hit a bit hard.

 

[M.K]

I don't really understand what the big deal is when people say "Oh, _______ should be _____th place in Top Tier"

Top Tier = Big Threat, that really should be all that matters. Things are just gonna keep jumpin' around everywhere.

 

[UberWatts]

wario took falcos spot huh that makes no sense DDD should be there

 

[Commander_Beef]

wario took falcos spot huh that makes no sense DDD should be there

Why should King Dedede be there? Huh?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Nah...DDD is fine where he is

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I also don't think ZSS actually loses to Luigi, I don't see that matchup being even either but that's just me. I could understand Shiek being tough though, she's underrated.

Thanks for the reply. My point was just that you can have disadvantageous matchups vs low or mid tier chracters and that doesn't make you inviable, cause those matches aren't really showing up very often anyway.

The ZSS vs. Luigi matchups is kind of nebulous. Snakeee says we lose; that's all we've really got to go on, because there haven't exactly been a ton of ZSS vs. Luigi high-end matches. I do trust Snakeee's opinion, though, because he's typically unbiased and honest. So I'll take his word for it. It's the fast aerials, specifically neutral A, that allow him to combo us and break out of many of our "combos."

As for Sheik, many Sheik mains I've talked to say it's even, but I don't see how at all. Sheik is a pain for ZSS, imo, there's no doubt about it from my perspective. That needles are annoying, very annoying because ZSS has no true long range options, so we have to approach. It's uphill for us, definitely not even, but not horrible either.

 

[UberWatts]

Why should King Dedede be there? Huh?

well it might be because i play as donkey kong but he can chaingrab 90% of the characters in this game

 

[Suspect]

Ice Climbers can chaingrab(throw) all characters

 

[Jupz]

Lol, he can only CG around 2/3 of the characters. Learn your facts

 

[Tien2500]

well it might be because i play as donkey kong but he can chaingrab 90% of the characters in this game

Dedede has some great matchups but he also has bad matchups scattered throughout the tier list.

 

[DMG]

While I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said about Luigi, Dr. Mario Guy, I also can't help but think that if someone had phrased those exact same arguments against Luigi on the previous versions of the tier list, they would have been either mercilessly flamed or ignored outright. (Not by you, but in general.)

Well, better late than never!

Well having a purple name/being fairly well known does help out with that haha, but yeah a lot of the negative character fanboyism (Yoshi isn't low tier, Sonic is Steak tier, U people are idiots for putting Ness in low Tier, etc. No offense to you other character mains out there) has died down, including some of the Wario fans who were disappointed in the past. Time has given us some lovely insight into the roster though, and people are more willing to agree on a tier list as a whole the longer the game's been out (although understandable we will still have debates over a few individual spots).

I know the matchup as a Rob secondary...give me a legitimate reason why the matchup in robs favor please..

Well on the Ground, I would say ROB has the advantage. Ftilt for ROB, IMO, looks like a very useful move vs Fox. I'm pretty sure it has more range than anything Fox had, and if you tilt it up it can quite nicely stop most of Fox's SH approaches. ROB has a little more grab range than Fox, I'm not sure if ROB has a faster grab or if they are the same speed.

In the air, Fox has the advantage under ROB, and I would say also when he is behind ROB. Ahead and/or above him though ROB has the advantage. Fair, Nair, and Uair have enough range to compete with Fox's aerials (Bair can too but the hitbox is kinda funky and hard to hit with), and in the event of a trade off ROB would usually be the favorite (One hit of Fox's Fair or Dair compared to a hit of ROB's Fair or Nair for example).

I think they both struggle a bit to kill each other. Both character's kill moves are kinda hard to land on each other respectively, and ROB's weight compensates for Fox's ability to kill better than ROB can with Usmash. In the event he is hit offstage, he definitely can recover easier than Fox can, although Fox himself is no slouch at recovering well.

I'd maybe put it at 55:45 ROB, I'm really not sure though. It's not a very common tournament matchup, I think I would give a slight nod towards ROB though.

Thanks for the reply. My point was just that you can have disadvantageous matchups vs low or mid tier chracters and that doesn't make you inviable, cause those matches aren't really showing up very often anyway.

I agree, to a certain extent. Having some bad matchups vs low or mid tier characters doesn't necessarily make a character useless, but it does still affect them negatively.

The ZSS vs. Luigi matchups is kind of nebulous. Snakeee says we lose; that's all we've really got to go on, because there haven't exactly been a ton of ZSS vs. Luigi high-end matches. I do trust Snakeee's opinion, though, because he's typically unbiased and honest. So I'll take his word for it. It's the fast aerials, specifically neutral A, that allow him to combo us and break out of many of our "combos."

As for Sheik, many Sheik mains I've talked to say it's even, but I don't see how at all. Sheik is a pain for ZSS, imo, there's no doubt about it from my perspective. That needles are annoying, very annoying because ZSS has no true long range options, so we have to approach. It's uphill for us, definitely not even, but not horrible either.

Hmm, I'll talk to Snakeee about it. I think she has the advantage over him, or at the very worst even, but there haven't been very matches to prove it either way.

As for Shiek, I can see her having a small edge overall on ZSS. Nothing too major.

 

[Brinzy]

The thing about ZSS is that she has a really good keepaway or keepout game, however you guys put it. Sheik has the needles to pester ZSS with from afar, but if she has to get inside ZSS, it isn't too difficult. I think those two elements are really all that make it tough for ZSS. If she can get a read on Sheik, she can keep her out still, but it's difficult.

I'm guessing this is why it's difficult, because ZSS vs. Zelda match-up is all about keeping Zelda out, which is too easy for ZSS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hmm, I'll talk to Snakeee about it. I think she has the advantage over him, or at the very worst even, but there haven't been very matches to prove it either way.

As for Shiek, I can see her having a small edge overall on ZSS. Nothing too major.

As for 1: cool, I talked to him about it tonight a little bit myself. He says that he thinks ZSS/MK is close to even now ("I think meta hardly has any adv at all again") but didn't comment much on Luigi.

Sheik is annoying, that's for sure. Maybe we just need to learn the matchup better.

 

[Paranormalsin]

i've got just one statement...

HOLY EFFING CHEESE WIZZ PT.

gg Reflex.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm one happy panda.

Liar. You're not a panda at all.