The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Supermodel From Paris]

Liar. You're not a panda at all.

I knew you were coming to say that.

 

[Deathcarter]

dr. mario guy, someone earlier asked about your analysis on Yoshi. Since no one knows **** on Yoshi (except Yoshi mains though I personally beleive they inflate their matchup ratios), I too would like the opinion of someone who is at least educated on the game in general.

 

[DMG]

dr. mario guy, someone earlier asked about your analysis on Yoshi. Since no one knows **** on Yoshi (except Yoshi mains though I personally beleive they inflate their matchup ratios), I too would like the opinion of someone who is at least educated on the game in general.

Yoshi is very interesting. I am kinda tired right now, playing a bit of poker before I go to bed, but I will certainly touch on Yoshi later on today/tomorrow for some of you folks.

 

[Steeler]

sheik and zelda should have been considered together...

 

[M.K]

Yoshi....I just have that feeling like he's going to be the next "thing". He seems to have some true potential.....I feel like he's going to develop this remarkable AT that propels him up the tier list.
But until then *peers down over the ledge* HAI YOSHI!

 

[Ryusuta]

Well having a purple name/being fairly well known does help out with that haha

See, and that's sort of what bothers me. People aren't looking into whether observations are valid in and of themselves, but rather instantly supporting them or opposing them based on the person that's saying them. In formal debate, it's known as argumentum ad hominem.

The only reason I say this is because people have INDEED been saying those exact same things about Luigi since the first tier list (on which his position was ridiculously inflated in spite of horrible - at the time - tournament results), and it was pretty well established by the time the second list had come out (especially with Ally's victory over Anther's Sonic in that well-known tournament finals match) that Captain Falcon definitely had more potential than Ganon. But again, these complaints were completely set by the wayside.

I think one of the main problems is that a lot of people seem to have an extremely difficult time telling the difference between legitimate, reasonable observations and mindless trolling. Of course, there was quite a bit of both.

It was actually what turned me off on the SBRB's observations more than anything else. The thing is, I never assume someone is right simply because of who they are. Their experience can certainly add credit to their observations, but if I went into a doctor's office with a cold and he told me I needed to amputate my right arm... chances are, I'd look for another opinion.

I say this not out of disagreement - because again, I actually like this tier list a lot and think it's an unbelievable improvement over the other two - but as a tone of general concern.

On another note, I wanted to say that you have addressed my other concern from the past quite nicely; which is that I was extremely put off by the fact that no explanation had been given for tier positions in the other two versions. You have done a nice degree of work in explaining a lot of the placements on this version, and I wanted to say, it's put my mind at ease about that.

I still feel that Backroom should be read-only to non-members because of my inherent distrust of decisions made behind closed doors, but that's another story. Suffice it to say that I definitely appreciate your observations on this thread. Thanks for you time!

 

[Paranormalsin]

Yoshi....I just have that feeling like he's going to be the next "thing". He seems to have some true potential.....I feel like he's going to develop this remarkable AT that propels him up the tier list.
But until then *peers down over the ledge* HAI YOSHI!

once draconic reverse and draconic trot is mastered, as it already is by some, im sure he will move up maybe one spot or two, but the extreme lack of a good up b is not helping him any. not to mention he does have some chain grabs that im sure mixed with DR and DT will be quite nasty.

 

[deepseadiva]

Interesting, thoughtful posts.

Hey, DMG, thanks for giving this thread a reason to be opened. It's nice to see some actual substance in this sea of "Oh, _____ went up/down?!"

 

[Ryusuta]

once draconic reverse and draconic trot is mastered, as it already is by some, im sure he will move up maybe one spot or two, but the extreme lack of a good up b is not helping him any. not to mention he does have some chain grabs that im sure mixed with DR and DT will be quite nasty.

Actually, I hate to say it, but most Yoshi mains agree that DR is situational at best. Most of the stuff you used wavedashing for in Melee you can pretty much do automatically on Brawl, so although there are a few mindgames and uses you can get out of it, on the whole there's not much meat to the AT.

I'm one of the better DR guys out there (though Scatz is still better than me), and I rarely use it unless the situation really calls for it.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Sir Orion
The thing is, as nice DMG wraps up reasons for tier list positions, it's still not the opinion of everyone.

If someone asks "why did the SBR put X on rank Y?", the only correct answer would be "Because the SBR-members voted so". It's true. We aren't discussing matters like you assume, but use a voting system. Everyone throws in their votes and then it will be averaged. Then the characters are positioned after their average vote counter. That's how this and the second tier list have been created (not too sure about the first one).

Making the SBR-B visible to non-SBRoomers is not necessary. In fact, it will only cause trouble, because the SBR is not only discussing matters on tier list or rulesets, but other stuff, as well. There's a reason why the members of it are not allowed to leak anything from it.

Let's take a popular example. For instance, if the SBR-B talks about a possible ban of Meta Knight, and discusses about it, and people see that, they automatically assume "OMG the SBR wants to ban Meta Knight", and suddenly everyone thinks we are going to ban Meta Knight. That's one of these things we want to avoid. Not everyone registered and posting here on SWF has the intelligence to comprehend what actually is going on in the SBR. If it was so, I suppose it wouldn't be secret, nor would there only be access to certain members.

 

[Paranormalsin]

Actually, I hate to say it, but most Yoshi mains agree that DR is situational at best. Most of the stuff you used wavedashing for in Melee you can pretty much do automatically on Brawl, so although there are a few mindgames and uses you can get out of it, on the whole there's not much meat to the AT.

I'm one of the better DR guys out there (though Scatz is still better than me), and I rarely use it unless the situation really calls for it.

i agree that scatz is too good at it. but i watched his video, and by the looks of it, it will apply to yoshis mind games much like spin-dash cancels has applied to sonics. im not saying it will push him up 5+ spots, but maybe one atleast.

 

[King Funk]

Sonic has made a awesome climb there. ^^

 

[Ryusuta]

@Sir Orion
The thing is, as nice DMG wraps up reasons for tier list positions, it's still not the opinion of everyone.

If someone asks "why did the SBR put X on rank Y?", the only correct answer would be "Because the SBR-members voted so". It's true. We aren't discussing matters like you assume, but use a voting system. Everyone throws in their votes and then it will be averaged. Then the characters are positioned after their average vote counter. That's how this and the second tier list have been created (not too sure about the first one).

I've known about the voting since the second version of the tier list (it was mentioned on the OP). Of course, the whole "voting" idea is kind of a bad one anyway, but that's another story. It ended up getting proper results this time out, so it's all good.

Making the SBR-B visible to non-SBRoomers is not necessary. In fact, it will only cause trouble, because the SBR is not only discussing matters on tier list or rulesets, but other stuff, as well. There's a reason why the members of it are not allowed to leak anything from it.

Let's take a popular example. For instance, if the SBR-B talks about a possible ban of Meta Knight, and discusses about it, and people see that, they automatically assume "OMG the SBR wants to ban Meta Knight", and suddenly everyone thinks we are going to ban Meta Knight. That's one of these things we want to avoid. Not everyone registered and posting here on SWF has the intelligence to comprehend what actually is going on in the SBR. If it was so, I suppose it wouldn't be secret, nor would there only be access to certain members.

Actually, that is the exact reason why I think it SHOULD be visible to everyone. If you start bringing up ideas that will completely radically change the tournament scene, there is absolutely no good reason NOT to let other people know about it.

Yes, it would spark a lot of debate and argument. But as is the case with your example, that happened anyway.

I'm going to have to lay this on the line here - the only reason I can see that it's invisible to non-members is to make members feel more important. Heck, you yourself demonstrated just that with your line about "not everyone has the intelligence to comprehend what's being said." I for one found that extremely patronizing.

Yes, there are a lot of nice credentials inside of SBRB. But there are equally nice credentials outside of the group (as well as some VERY dead-weight members, whose names I won't mention). And again, there is ample reason to distrust decisions made behind closed doors.

Keeping other people ignorant doesn't help anyone.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Keep the serfs illiterate, the nobles are the only ones who need to be able to read anyway.

 

[BentoBox]

Said it before and I'll say it again: The tier list should be match-up based. Accept no substitutes!

 

[DMG]

I say this not out of disagreement - because again, I actually like this tier list a lot and think it's an unbelievable improvement over the other two - but as a tone of general concern.

On another note, I wanted to say that you have addressed my other concern from the past quite nicely; which is that I was extremely put off by the fact that no explanation had been given for tier positions in the other two versions. You have done a nice degree of work in explaining a lot of the placements on this version, and I wanted to say, it's put my mind at ease about that.

Suffice it to say that I definitely appreciate your observations on this thread. Thanks for you time!

No I understand how you feel, I also don't think the people should always completely trust/disregard someone's opinion because of their qualifications/qualities. I try to use that to my advantage though in a positive way. I don't want to have THAT much influence over whether someone takes my advice/opinion seriously or not, but if I have that power I might as well try to do something good with it.

Hey, DMG, thanks for giving this thread a reason to be opened. It's nice to see some actual substance in this sea of "Oh, _____ went up/down?!"

You guys are all welcome. Aside from my mandatory "Inui on the tier list" posts, I think I've tried to answer a lot of people's concerns/questions over the list.

 

[LuLLo]

Since I don't have time to go through 60+ pages to find my answer, I'll just ask. What made Sonic and Pokémon Trainer move up?
And I think I know, since I main him, but why is Falcon considered higher than before?
Overall nice list, I still think Lucas should move up though ..

 

[Red Arremer]

Actually, that is the exact reason why I think it SHOULD be visible to everyone. If you start bringing up ideas that will completely radically change the tournament scene, there is absolutely no good reason NOT to let other people know about it.

Yes, it would spark a lot of debate and argument. But as is the case with your example, that happened anyway.

No, look. I was taking that as an example to show how this can turn out horrible. Really horrible. The Meta Knight ban stuff was brought to the public, anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that there are things that would cause an unnecessary uproar. Simple as that.

I'm going to have to lay this on the line here - the only reason I can see that it's invisible to non-members is to make members feel more important. Heck, you yourself demonstrated just that with your line about "not everyone has the intelligence to comprehend what's being said." I for one found that extremely patronizing.

lol. So you think it's just elitism? It's not. There's a reason. There are, no doubt about it, several very knowledgeable members not in the SBR. But that doesn't change the fact that there are people who're not knowledgeable enough about the game to understand it. I'm not saying that everyone who isn't in the SBR is an idiot, mind you. I'm saying, though, that there are people who are not knowledgeable about the game, or only very little.

For instance, if I casted my votes - based on my personal opinions of the characters and my knowledge and experience about them - for the tier list, there could be people who attack me for it, or anyone else who doesn't vote for what they think is correct. For example getting bitten because character X is too high/low/whatever.

Furthermore, it would cause a flood of threads "omg sbr r nubs" or "why does the SBR think X is bad, X is awesome!" or something. If someone makes a mistake or has a misinformation, they will be ripped apart by the public and maybe forced to leave the SBR. The atmosphere of the SBR will be disturbed because everyone is watching, and everyone will immediately shoot at the members if they do something wrong. It's just a room where a few knowledgeable people talk about the game, nothing more. There are no people in the SBR who're like "omg those scrubs, they're not worthy to be talked to".
I think you get my point, though. The other version, the one with the closed doors, is maybe not the best solution, but it's definitely better than open doors and this scenario up there.

 

[Brinzy]

And here's yet another question for you, but we'll make it short and easy:

How advantaged is Waro against Zelda in your opinion?

 

[Paranormalsin]

Since I don't have time to go through 60+ pages to find my answer, I'll just ask. What made Sonic and Pokémon Trainer move up?
And I think I know, since I main him, but why is Falcon considered higher than before?
Overall nice list, I still think Lucas should move up though ..

reflex for pt, hes just amazing
mindgames and options for sonic, doog oot eryeht lol

 

[drunk3ng0ldfish]

Give Ganon G-tier.
D<

 

[:mad:]

Not really.

PT and Sonic mains really stepped up their tournament results. Having star players like Reflex and Typh constantly put up good results only helped, and Sonic has a very large amount of good players placing consistently.

Among other factors that aren't as important as actual results.

 

[DMG]

And here's yet another question for you, but we'll make it short and easy:

How advantaged is Wario against Zelda in your opinion?

Well I can say I'm not the only one back there who feels Wario beats Zelda, but as for a specific number, I think 60:40 Wario's favor sounds good. Might be a tad closer than that, but overall I think that sounds about right. The real issue is that I haven't been able to go out and test Wario's camping prowess against a really good Zelda. On paper, he has her beat 60:40 or higher, but that obviously doesn't always translate into real game play.

Also I promise to do Yoshi sometime later today lol.

 

[Chaco]

Okay. Scat and I both mess with DR quite a bit. Scat is better than I am with it, buy I have about as much knowledge. DR is situational, it's worse than situational tbh. It has a few good apps I'll admit. Chain grab release->Fox Trot->DR Fsmash over ledge on Meta is unpunishable. They can only aordodge it. CG Release->Fox Trot->DR Dsmash works on everyone CGable iirc. DR can be used as a great mindgame as well, but unless it comes easy to you I wouldn't bother learning it. I prefer DJCEL 10 to 1.

Yoshi is about where he needs to be, maybe a one spot to low or so. He's a mediocre character at best. So yeah...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Wow, good list. No, seriously. Nice to see PT and Sonic getting proper credit for once.

Although as a Sonic main, I've got a duty to complain, so :

Sonic can't **** low tier tournaments anymore. **** you SBR

lol

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach got cheated so hard in this one. Peach belongs over Pit and DK and she be just fine.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach got cheated so hard in this one. Peach belongs over Pit and DK and she be just fine.

But Dark.Pch, Peach can't kill!!!!!111

Kidding.

 

[Dark.Pch]

But Dark.Pch, Peach can't kill!!!!!111

Kidding.

Yea, I bet that what they always had in mind so much with this character.

 

[Browny]

I painted a picture reflecting my thoughts on tier list 3.0

 

[Ryusuta]

Hey, sorry I didn't see your reply right away. I was busy going nuts on TF2, heh.

I'm glad you took the time to respond to me, Spade. I made kind of a rather lengthy post (for which I apologize in advance ), but if you'll bear with me, I think it could be worth your while to look through it.

No, look. I was taking that as an example to show how this can turn out horrible. Really horrible. The Meta Knight ban stuff was brought to the public, anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that there are things that would cause an unnecessary uproar. Simple as that.

"Unnecessary uproar" is incredibly vague. Just what sort of "uproar" are we talking about, here? Looting in the streets? Mass hysteria? Cars being tipped over? Some posts on a message board forum?

With respect, I think this is a transparent rationalization, and I also think you know it. These things were meant to be discussed. It's not SBRB's private secret Beta project that can't be leaked to the public, it's Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a record-selling megahit title. And while a great deal of the people that play the game are casual gamers, those casual gamers aren't likely to give a hoot what's being discussed anyway.

If people flame or troll, they get points. That's why we have moderators. So that excuse is out anyway.

See, the problem is that you can't actually give an example of what you can't discuss in order to say WHY you can't discuss it... because, well, you can't discuss it. And I have never seen a subject of discussion that's okay for ONE group of people to know and talk about, but not ANOTHER. It makes no sense at all.

lol. So you think it's just elitism? It's not. There's a reason. There are, no doubt about it, several very knowledgeable members not in the SBR. But that doesn't change the fact that there are people who're not knowledgeable enough about the game to understand it.

Okay. I'd like you to reread that last sentence again, very carefully. Then I want you to honestly tell me that it's not elitism.

Granted, many people might not have the theoretical or practical knowledge to give insightful input on the subject. But for one thing, you can't know that until the subject is brought up. You can only assume that they don't, and whether you call it elitism, protectionism, or secrecy, it's still putting blinders over people's eyes, and I will always have a personal vendetta against people that believe it's the right thing to do.

How about this: instead of constantly keeping it a secret, why not explain your position to them, and if the subject keeps coming up, direct the conversation back to your original explanation so you don't have to keep retreading ground? It's really not that much work, even though that seems to be the resounding impression.

I remember a great line from the book Xenocide. I don't remember the phrase verbatim but it essentially goes: "If you share the knowledge you have, then everyone is wiser. If you keep a secret, then everyone is a fool."

Getting these conversations out in the open is important for another reason as well. When you have to take the time to explain your beliefs and observations, it also gives you cause to reexamine them, which is another important thing to do.

The way I see it right now, SBRB (with the exception of the occasional appointing of new members) has a very real possibility of stagnating under its own unquestioned premises. Even the brightest minds and most clever thinkers can have the completely wrong idea about something, yet never know about it because there isn't enough external input for perspective.

Naturally, I don't think that just any Tom, "Rich," or Pichu is going to have a totally revolutionary new strategy for every aspect of the game; but I DO think that even the most inexperienced player could have a valid observation to make on the subjects being raised, given the right circumstances.

Remember also that we have dedicated forums. If SBRB is discussing the potential legality of a stage, it would make sense for the Stage forum to read what they're saying and bring it up on the Stage Legality thread.

But here's an even more important point; possibly the most important of all. This is an INTERNET FORUM. The type of people that would argue over something on an Internet forum (please ignore the irony), will find ANY excuse to argue. Keeping a few subjects out of the public eye doesn't make the world a more peaceful place, it just makes it more ignorant.

I'm not saying that everyone who isn't in the SBR is an idiot, mind you. I'm saying, though, that there are people who are not knowledgeable about the game, or only very little.

For instance, if I casted my votes - based on my personal opinions of the characters and my knowledge and experience about them - for the tier list, there could be people who attack me for it, or anyone else who doesn't vote for what they think is correct. For example getting bitten because character X is too high/low/whatever.

But don't you see? That happens anyway. Period. It will never STOP happening, ever. Just because you specifically weren't called to task because of your vote doesn't mean that the arguments suddenly don't exist.

And let's take this one step further: what if they're right and you're wrong? Remember, public opinion was pretty heavily in favor of Sonic and Falcon moving up even before the second version of the tier list was released. It was also validated by tournament results (Sonic has been doing consistently well over the past 8 months or so), and yet SBRB was behind the times.

Same with Luigi. I personally made a very specific point to bring up the inconsistency between Luigi's tier placement in the first version and his - at the time - metagame and tournament results. And do you know what an SBRB member said to me? He said "You'd have to be crazy to think that Luigi isn't that good." I'm not taking this phrase out of context or misquoting him, either. He did everything but come out and say "Well, he doesn't have the metagame, matchups, or ESPECIALLY the tournament results (the defining factor of tier placement, in my opinion), but we have some vague notion that Luigi is better than the numbers are showing, so we'll give him a really high ranking."

Furthermore, it would cause a flood of threads "omg sbr r nubs" or "why does the SBR think X is bad, X is awesome!" or something. If someone makes a mistake or has a misinformation, they will be ripped apart by the public and maybe forced to leave the SBR.

I don't see how this follows at all, quite frankly. No one is asking anyone to be perfect or omnipotent in order to be in SBRB. Quite to the contrary, it is an extremely rare and - believe it or not - very highly respected act on an Internet forum for someone to man up and admit that they're wrong. The problem is that people are so into chest-beating that they almost never take the time to do this. It means a lot to people when you say "This is what I thought, but I made a mistake, and I guess this was right all along." Only people don't do it because of this vague notion that they'll be looked down on for doing so.

The atmosphere of the SBR will be disturbed because everyone is watching, and everyone will immediately shoot at the members if they do something wrong.

Could you clarify what you mean by "something wrong,"?

It's just a room where a few knowledgeable people talk about the game, nothing more. There are no people in the SBR who're like "omg those scrubs, they're not worthy to be talked to".

While I have no doubt that you're being honest about that... playing devil's advocate for a moment... how do we know that?

I think you get my point, though. The other version, the one with the closed doors, is maybe not the best solution, but it's definitely better than open doors and this scenario up there.

What it comes down to is this: barring implied accusations of elitism (which might have been a little unfair on my part), the only arguments in favor of keeping discussion behind closed doors is that A: it makes things easier on SBRB, and B: you're not personally called to task for your observations. And while I can certainly understand and sympathize with your feelings, I have to say that these are pretty flimsy excuses as a whole.

Sorry for the tl;dr, there. ^^;

 

[Remzi]

loool epic pic djbrowny

 

[JustNoOne]

Too Good! The Kewl Kids Klub!

 

[Brinzy]

The interaction between MK and Marth is so awesome.

Well I can say I'm not the only one back there who feels Wario beats Zelda, but as for a specific number, I think 60:40 Wario's favor sounds good. Might be a tad closer than that, but overall I think that sounds about right. The real issue is that I haven't been able to go out and test Wario's camping prowess against a really good Zelda. On paper, he has her beat 60:40 or higher, but that obviously doesn't always translate into real game play.

Yeah, finding a good Zelda is really challenging. You can find a good player to play her, or you can find someone who's really a good Zelda player, and you'd get incredibly different results, in my opinion (well, as far as the most linear character in Brawl goes).

 

[MysticKenji]

I painted a picture reflecting my thoughts on tier list 3.0

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ec2psk.png

amazing pic lol

 

[Jupz]

Wow that pic is so epic...

 

[King Funk]

I painted a picture reflecting my thoughts on tier list 3.0

http://i43.tinypic.com/2vn5jyx.png

You win... Seriously... ^^

 

[masterdrenin]

I painted a picture reflecting my thoughts on tier list 3.0

http://i43.tinypic.com/2vn5jyx.png

LOL that's hilarious!!!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

0rion I don't enjoy your views on ZSS

That said, you are mopping up this thread. I want to quote your post and QFT it.

 

[Nixernator]

Shouldn't MK be saying "No girls allowed" in that pic DJ.
Lol at Marths gender =P.

 

[Sourglue]

Wow, Wario definitely made a jump. I've expected that for the longest time, so not necessarily surprised it happened, but there is a lot on this tier list that caught me off guard.