Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I knew you were coming to say that.Liar. You're not a panda at all.
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I knew you were coming to say that.Liar. You're not a panda at all.
Yoshi is very interesting. I am kinda tired right now, playing a bit of poker before I go to bed, but I will certainly touch on Yoshi later on today/tomorrow for some of you folks.dr. mario guy, someone earlier asked about your analysis on Yoshi. Since no one knows **** on Yoshi (except Yoshi mains though I personally beleive they inflate their matchup ratios), I too would like the opinion of someone who is at least educated on the game in general.
See, and that's sort of what bothers me. People aren't looking into whether observations are valid in and of themselves, but rather instantly supporting them or opposing them based on the person that's saying them. In formal debate, it's known as argumentum ad hominem.Well having a purple name/being fairly well known does help out with that haha
Yoshi....I just have that feeling like he's going to be the next "thing". He seems to have some true potential.....I feel like he's going to develop this remarkable AT that propels him up the tier list.
But until then *peers down over the ledge* HAI YOSHI!
Hey, DMG, thanks for giving this thread a reason to be opened. It's nice to see some actual substance in this sea of "Oh, _____ went up/down?!"Interesting, thoughtful posts.
Actually, I hate to say it, but most Yoshi mains agree that DR is situational at best. Most of the stuff you used wavedashing for in Melee you can pretty much do automatically on Brawl, so although there are a few mindgames and uses you can get out of it, on the whole there's not much meat to the AT.
once draconic reverse and draconic trot is mastered, as it already is by some, im sure he will move up maybe one spot or two, but the extreme lack of a good up b is not helping him any. not to mention he does have some chain grabs that im sure mixed with DR and DT will be quite nasty.
i agree that scatz is too good at it. but i watched his video, and by the looks of it, it will apply to yoshis mind games much like spin-dash cancels has applied to sonics. im not saying it will push him up 5+ spots, but maybe one atleast.Actually, I hate to say it, but most Yoshi mains agree that DR is situational at best. Most of the stuff you used wavedashing for in Melee you can pretty much do automatically on Brawl, so although there are a few mindgames and uses you can get out of it, on the whole there's not much meat to the AT.
I'm one of the better DR guys out there (though Scatz is still better than me), and I rarely use it unless the situation really calls for it.
I've known about the voting since the second version of the tier list (it was mentioned on the OP). Of course, the whole "voting" idea is kind of a bad one anyway, but that's another story. It ended up getting proper results this time out, so it's all good.@Sir Orion
The thing is, as nice DMG wraps up reasons for tier list positions, it's still not the opinion of everyone.
If someone asks "why did the SBR put X on rank Y?", the only correct answer would be "Because the SBR-members voted so". It's true. We aren't discussing matters like you assume, but use a voting system. Everyone throws in their votes and then it will be averaged. Then the characters are positioned after their average vote counter. That's how this and the second tier list have been created (not too sure about the first one).
Actually, that is the exact reason why I think it SHOULD be visible to everyone. If you start bringing up ideas that will completely radically change the tournament scene, there is absolutely no good reason NOT to let other people know about it.Making the SBR-B visible to non-SBRoomers is not necessary. In fact, it will only cause trouble, because the SBR is not only discussing matters on tier list or rulesets, but other stuff, as well. There's a reason why the members of it are not allowed to leak anything from it.
Let's take a popular example. For instance, if the SBR-B talks about a possible ban of Meta Knight, and discusses about it, and people see that, they automatically assume "OMG the SBR wants to ban Meta Knight", and suddenly everyone thinks we are going to ban Meta Knight. That's one of these things we want to avoid. Not everyone registered and posting here on SWF has the intelligence to comprehend what actually is going on in the SBR. If it was so, I suppose it wouldn't be secret, nor would there only be access to certain members.
No I understand how you feel, I also don't think the people should always completely trust/disregard someone's opinion because of their qualifications/qualities. I try to use that to my advantage though in a positive way. I don't want to have THAT much influence over whether someone takes my advice/opinion seriously or not, but if I have that power I might as well try to do something good with it.I say this not out of disagreement - because again, I actually like this tier list a lot and think it's an unbelievable improvement over the other two - but as a tone of general concern.
On another note, I wanted to say that you have addressed my other concern from the past quite nicely; which is that I was extremely put off by the fact that no explanation had been given for tier positions in the other two versions. You have done a nice degree of work in explaining a lot of the placements on this version, and I wanted to say, it's put my mind at ease about that.
Suffice it to say that I definitely appreciate your observations on this thread. Thanks for you time!
Hey, DMG, thanks for giving this thread a reason to be opened. It's nice to see some actual substance in this sea of "Oh, _____ went up/down?!"
No, look. I was taking that as an example to show how this can turn out horrible. Really horrible. The Meta Knight ban stuff was brought to the public, anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that there are things that would cause an unnecessary uproar. Simple as that.Actually, that is the exact reason why I think it SHOULD be visible to everyone. If you start bringing up ideas that will completely radically change the tournament scene, there is absolutely no good reason NOT to let other people know about it.
Yes, it would spark a lot of debate and argument. But as is the case with your example, that happened anyway.
lol. So you think it's just elitism? It's not. There's a reason. There are, no doubt about it, several very knowledgeable members not in the SBR. But that doesn't change the fact that there are people who're not knowledgeable enough about the game to understand it. I'm not saying that everyone who isn't in the SBR is an idiot, mind you. I'm saying, though, that there are people who are not knowledgeable about the game, or only very little.I'm going to have to lay this on the line here - the only reason I can see that it's invisible to non-members is to make members feel more important. Heck, you yourself demonstrated just that with your line about "not everyone has the intelligence to comprehend what's being said." I for one found that extremely patronizing.
reflex for pt, hes just amazingSince I don't have time to go through 60+ pages to find my answer, I'll just ask. What made Sonic and Pokémon Trainer move up?
And I think I know, since I main him, but why is Falcon considered higher than before?
Overall nice list, I still think Lucas should move up though ..
Well I can say I'm not the only one back there who feels Wario beats Zelda, but as for a specific number, I think 60:40 Wario's favor sounds good. Might be a tad closer than that, but overall I think that sounds about right. The real issue is that I haven't been able to go out and test Wario's camping prowess against a really good Zelda. On paper, he has her beat 60:40 or higher, but that obviously doesn't always translate into real game play.And here's yet another question for you, but we'll make it short and easy:
How advantaged is Wario against Zelda in your opinion?
But Dark.Pch, Peach can't kill!!!!!111Peach got cheated so hard in this one. Peach belongs over Pit and DK and she be just fine.
Yea, I bet that what they always had in mind so much with this character.But Dark.Pch, Peach can't kill!!!!!111
Kidding.
"Unnecessary uproar" is incredibly vague. Just what sort of "uproar" are we talking about, here? Looting in the streets? Mass hysteria? Cars being tipped over? Some posts on a message board forum?No, look. I was taking that as an example to show how this can turn out horrible. Really horrible. The Meta Knight ban stuff was brought to the public, anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that there are things that would cause an unnecessary uproar. Simple as that.
Okay. I'd like you to reread that last sentence again, very carefully. Then I want you to honestly tell me that it's not elitism.lol. So you think it's just elitism? It's not. There's a reason. There are, no doubt about it, several very knowledgeable members not in the SBR. But that doesn't change the fact that there are people who're not knowledgeable enough about the game to understand it.
But don't you see? That happens anyway. Period. It will never STOP happening, ever. Just because you specifically weren't called to task because of your vote doesn't mean that the arguments suddenly don't exist.I'm not saying that everyone who isn't in the SBR is an idiot, mind you. I'm saying, though, that there are people who are not knowledgeable about the game, or only very little.
For instance, if I casted my votes - based on my personal opinions of the characters and my knowledge and experience about them - for the tier list, there could be people who attack me for it, or anyone else who doesn't vote for what they think is correct. For example getting bitten because character X is too high/low/whatever.
I don't see how this follows at all, quite frankly. No one is asking anyone to be perfect or omnipotent in order to be in SBRB. Quite to the contrary, it is an extremely rare and - believe it or not - very highly respected act on an Internet forum for someone to man up and admit that they're wrong. The problem is that people are so into chest-beating that they almost never take the time to do this. It means a lot to people when you say "This is what I thought, but I made a mistake, and I guess this was right all along." Only people don't do it because of this vague notion that they'll be looked down on for doing so.Furthermore, it would cause a flood of threads "omg sbr r nubs" or "why does the SBR think X is bad, X is awesome!" or something. If someone makes a mistake or has a misinformation, they will be ripped apart by the public and maybe forced to leave the SBR.
Could you clarify what you mean by "something wrong,"?The atmosphere of the SBR will be disturbed because everyone is watching, and everyone will immediately shoot at the members if they do something wrong.
While I have no doubt that you're being honest about that... playing devil's advocate for a moment... how do we know that?It's just a room where a few knowledgeable people talk about the game, nothing more. There are no people in the SBR who're like "omg those scrubs, they're not worthy to be talked to".
What it comes down to is this: barring implied accusations of elitism (which might have been a little unfair on my part), the only arguments in favor of keeping discussion behind closed doors is that A: it makes things easier on SBRB, and B: you're not personally called to task for your observations. And while I can certainly understand and sympathize with your feelings, I have to say that these are pretty flimsy excuses as a whole.I think you get my point, though. The other version, the one with the closed doors, is maybe not the best solution, but it's definitely better than open doors and this scenario up there.
Yeah, finding a good Zelda is really challenging. You can find a good player to play her, or you can find someone who's really a good Zelda player, and you'd get incredibly different results, in my opinion (well, as far as the most linear character in Brawl goes).Well I can say I'm not the only one back there who feels Wario beats Zelda, but as for a specific number, I think 60:40 Wario's favor sounds good. Might be a tad closer than that, but overall I think that sounds about right. The real issue is that I haven't been able to go out and test Wario's camping prowess against a really good Zelda. On paper, he has her beat 60:40 or higher, but that obviously doesn't always translate into real game play.
amazing pic lol
You win... Seriously... ^^
LOL that's hilarious!!!