The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[phi1ny3]

lol I see sooo many "pranked" usernames on this thread.

 

[Vermy]

its true, sonic is more balenced while fox is a character of extremes, so its really hard to compare the two, even if I play both of them

i lol'd at this. (no disrespect intended)
Sonic has extremes. Running speed. Recovery.
Fox isn't exactly balanced, but he has a plethora of reliably kill moves that execute quickly, a pretty standard recovery, and a good juggling/chaining game. He may have a big weakness in his fall acceleration, but i still think his pros out weigh the cons by a decent margin.

Now I'm no Sonic expert, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Sonic is based on punishment, mindgames and hit & run strategies. Many Sonics have stated their surprise at his position this tier list. Considering a few other characters advances in their respective metagames/tourney results, Sonic looks to be moving down 1 or 2 spots if anything.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fox i a glass cannon.
Hence he was referring to Fox as a character of extremes. He hits hard but dies very quickly.

Also, mindgames are never factored into things.
Sonic's ability lets him maintain options. The mindgames are a side effect of that option ability

 

[-Mars-]

I remember debating with da K.I.D. and ShadowLink about Fox and Sonic months ago lol.

 

[Spelt]

I think fox's recovery is better than falco's.
feel free to prove i'm wrong.

 

[AvariceX]

I think fox's recovery is better than falco's.
feel free to prove i'm wrong.

That's not really something to be proven or disproven - Fox's recovery is better than Falco's; his up-b goes farther and shine stalling allows for a small amount of extra unpredictability. Falco's recovery is nothing special though.

 

[Spelt]

Yeah what i was thinking :/
but people could argue that falco's illusion has less lag and has a weak meteor smash making it less punishable, and whatnot.

 

[Kinzer]

Many Sonics have stated their surprise at his position this tier list. Considering a few other characters advances in their respective metagames/tourney results, Sonic looks to be moving down 1 or 2 spots if anything.

I think it has much more to do with people actually recognizing him as a character who can leave an impact... not so much as the placement...

We knew he was better than perceived (5th and 7th worst character lul), but knowing that we didn't expect him to make some +8 big jump... maybe 3 spots at most haha.

I think fox's recovery is better than falco's.
feel free to prove i'm wrong.

That's not really something to be proven or disproven - Fox's recovery is better than Falco's; his up-b goes farther and shine stalling allows for a small amount of extra unpredictability. Falco's recovery is nothing special though.

This, pretty much.

Nobody in their right mind would argue that Falco's recovery > Fox's.

 

[Spelt]

I don't see why he dies quickly then? D:
he's middle weight, isn't he?
or is it his momentum canceling skills that makes his stamina crap?

 

[Kinzer]

Who are you talking about in specific, Fox or Falco?

Fox is a light fastfaller, so he will die early even if his fallspeed gives him the illusion of having great MCing... Falco... is a spacie... therefore his recovery is notoriously bad... as for his MCing... I'm not entirely sure how good that is, but I'd say it's okay...

 

[Spelt]

I was talking about Fox, sorry. xD
oh i didn't know he was a light character, seemed like he would fit the middle range more.

 

[smashkng]

I was talking about Fox, sorry. xD
oh i didn't know he was a light character, seemed like he would fit the middle range more.

Fox is VERY VERY light. He dies very early, especially horizontally, though vertically he also dies early.

 

[Jupz]

He can use Bair or Dair for Momentum cancelling. He's an average momentum canceller.

 

[Spelt]

Fox is VERY VERY light. He dies very early, especially horizontally, though vertically he also dies early.

doesn't seem right

 

[Kinzer]

That's because it isn't.

While Fox is still a light character, he can live to somewhat reasonable %ages.

Then again WTF do I know, I play a character who has trouble killing most anything (read: most, GD it).

 

[Spelt]

I never really thought of him as one of the characters that had trouble staying alive. xD

 

[Kinzer]

Hard to tell when everybody can recover in this game.

...Then again what do I know about being gimped, even though I don't play MK I play a character that will 99.9% of the time get back to the stage if he isn't outright killed.

 

[Spelt]

Except link and ivysaur, of course. :/

 

[smashkng]

Impossible to say Fox lives long when he's light. And his recovery is pretty bad for being light. He feels much lighter than Falco.

 

[Kinzer]

Probably because Fox is lighter compared to Falco.

...I know there's a list somewhere, but I'm way too tired to go grab it and get exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure Falco is heavier than Fox.

 

[-Mars-]

Fox is third lightest in the game iirc.....right behind jiggz and G&W.

Edit: maybe it was fourth...can't really remember but yea Falco is way heavier than Fox.

 

[Kinzer]

Probably 4th, since there's Squirtle.

 

[Vermy]

7th.
Gaw, jiggs, squirtle, kirby, mk, pikachu are below him.

 

[llamapaste]

Sonic is pretty bad. I get annoyed with Sonic. He's my least favorite character in Brawl. He shouldn't of moved up 8 spaces. High 20's for Sonic maby. IDK.

 

[gm jack]

Sonic is pretty bad. I get annoyed with Sonic. He's my least favorite character in Brawl. He shouldn't of moved up 8 spaces. High 20's for Sonic maby. IDK.

However, they got out and get some very good placings in tournaments. As said before, he is a character who has options. None are brilliant, but because you don't know what they are going to do, it makes fighting him that bit harder.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What good ICs have Kirk or San beaten?
I honestly just don't know.

So? That's not really the issue.



Generally the problem is that people can powershield Ike's fair to punish, or spotdodge. The problem is, ICs can't because Nana is 6 frames behind and it lasts too long, so they've gotta shield, which makes it safe if properly spaced and fast-falled (it's got mad IASA frames). That forces ICs to approach on his terms. Also, Jab *****.

Well... if top players of each character haven't met... how can you say it's "actually true"?
Seems like speculation to me.

I'll just say that I used to main ICs, and I rarely lost to any Ikes.

Theory backed up by concrete facts isn't speculation, it's a well-supported conclusion.


Sample size 1 = no argument, you were just good enough to overcome or the Ikes didn't know the match-up and there are a LOT of bad Ikes.

I'm not saying this because Peach is on your 'overhyped' list, but I really prefer an overhyped boards over an underhyped board.

Are you referring to somebody?

Spoiler

Marth boards: Marth is horrible in this game.

I can sourspot fair it. Doesn't change the fact that the time you spend jabbing is time you spend not moving.

EDIT: As a just in case... do not take this to mean that I'm telling you how to play this game. I'm just talking here.

The point is that it can't force an approach, and it's punishable.

bad argument, primarily because you are focusing on one hting, their grabs.
The IC's are not only based around their grabs. If you watch successful IC's, they actually dont land a grab very often at high level play, it is becauseof everything else, de-synched blizzards, ice blocks, etc etc.

I highly doubt Nair or Fair is the reason for them having an issue with Ike, because by that logic, many other characters should have an issue with him as well.

Considering the amount of pressure that the IC's can lay upon Ike, it is indeed difficult to see why the IC's would ahve difficulty with Ike.

Honestly, the difference is they can't powershield it or spotdodge it, because of Nana.

Blizzard just gets outranged, and at that range, ice blocks can't compete with Ike's fair.

Fox i a glass cannon.
Hence he was referring to Fox as a character of extremes. He hits hard but dies very quickly.

Also, mindgames are never factored into things.
Sonic's ability lets him maintain options. The mindgames are a side effect of that option ability

But mindgames POTENTIAL is, remember?

 

[Melomaniacal]

So? That's not really the issue.

Like I said, I honestly just didn't know. I wanted to know because I was curious, nothing more, nothing less. That's it.

Theory backed up by concrete facts isn't speculation, it's a well-supported conclusion.


Sample size 1 = no argument, you were just good enough to overcome or the Ikes didn't know the match-up and there are a LOT of bad Ikes.

What concrete facts? In my opinion, concrete facts would be when you see Ikes beating ICs left and right. The problem is most people base match ups on their own experiences. So we apparently have two or three Ikes who are capable of swaying the match up in their, yet all the other Ikes (who also have never played a good IC) are deciding the match up numbers.
The difference between a bad IC and a good IC is huge. Huge.

The main person I practice with mained Ike, so we played all the time. He knew the match up, and he certainly wasn't bad.

Oh, and I'm positive that ICs can still both power shield attacks.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What concrete facts? In my opinion, concrete facts would be when you see Ikes beating ICs left and right. The problem is most people base match ups on their own experiences. So we apparently have two or three Ikes who are capable of swaying the match up in their, yet all the other Ikes (who also have never played a good IC) are deciding the match up numbers.
The difference between a bad IC and a good IC is huge. Huge.

The main person I practice with mained Ike, so we played all the time. He knew the match up, and he certainly wasn't bad.

Oh, and I'm 95% sure that ICs can still both power shield attacks.

No, that's empirical evidence.

Facts are frame data, range, and the like, those are concrete facts.

If you take into account those facts in a proper theoretical system, you will never go wrong (here's where the community f***s up btw) because it's not induction like with tournament results, it's deduction.


And no, that's impossible, Nana is 6 frames off, unlike with ZSS, Ike's fair doesn't reach 6 frames later.

 

[Melomaniacal]

No, that's empirical evidence.

Facts are frame data, range, and the like, those are concrete facts.

If you take into account those facts in a proper theoretical system, you will never go wrong (here's where the community f***s up btw) because it's not induction like with tournament results, it's deduction.


And no, that's impossible, Nana is 6 frames off, unlike with ZSS, Ike's fair doesn't reach 6 frames later.

Well ****, I like empirical evidence much better.

I don't like theorycrafting so much. Especially not on smash boards, where people tend to blow things out of proportion. Things don't usually play out the way they do in your theorycrafting. Nobody is perfect, and the second Ike messes up, he's dead. There are plenty of places for ICs to get in a grab.

Well I have to go test that out, because I have vivid, exact, and detailed memories of me power shielding Ikes fair - amongst other attacks - with both characters.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well ****, I like empirical evidence much better.

I don't like theorycrafting so much. Especially not on smash boards, where people tend to blow things out of proportion. Things don't usually play out the way they do in your theorycrafting. Nobody is perfect, and the second Ike messes up, he's dead. There are plenty of places for ICs to get in a grab.

Liking something has no bearing on whether it's true or false.

Of course nobody's perfect, but when somebody has to **** up, you gotta relie on prediction for that grab, because at the top of the metagame, people make precious little in the way of technical mistakes.


And prediction ratios can be understood in terms of character power as well.

Well I have to go test that out, because I have vivid, exact, and detailed memories of me power shielding Ikes fair - amongst other attacks - with both characters.

Ok, Vids then, but it's one of IC's major weaknesses, and I can tell you where it probably happened.

Yoshi's, Lyats, the slope did it cause Ike's fair has a moving hitbox.

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic is pretty bad. I get annoyed with Sonic. He's my least favorite character in Brawl. He shouldn't of moved up 8 spaces. High 20's for Sonic maby. IDK.

Because other people give a crap about your personal preference.

Next please.

 

[Brinzy]

The point is that it can't force an approach, and it's punishable.

For the first part, sure. For the second part, sure, if your opponent uses it when Ike can punish it. I don't know anyone who sits back and lets Ivysaur throw leaves all day unless Ivysaur is losing.

I don't really care though, the point is that it's not worthless just because you can "jab it out."

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

...

Yeah, so um... If either ZSS or Toon Link were to make it into A-Tier, which would it be?

Discussion, plz.

Probably ZSS but only because of MK ****** Toon Link from here to, well, yeah.

Toon Link is a really good character though, that match-up is really unfortunate. Then again, Falco ***** ZSS but that match-up changes drastically with stage and the Toon Link/MK gimping problem never goes away.

I dunno it's a hard call. Both are good characters though.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'd say Zss, but TL has strong tourney backings as well.
In other news, Azen Zagenite is back, and won 1st in singles for C3. Rejoice!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Last thing for Ike vs ICs (at least until the Ike boards does the rediscussion which I suspect will be somewhat messy this time around)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2Z66_7OSA This is the only video out there of Kirk vs ICs.

No clue how good those ICs are, I'm assuming not top.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Last thing for Ike vs ICs (at least until the Ike boards does the rediscussion which I suspect will be somewhat messy this time around)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2Z66_7OSA This is the only video out there of Kirk vs ICs.

No clue how good those ICs are, I'm assuming not top.

About 92% of the ICs damage came from a grab. Missed nana saves, squall suicides (admittedley, he prolly would have gotten edgeguarded anyways), almost no Uair or squall (bad approach, amazing punish), bad descisions (trying to kill at 100 out of the cg, I mean come on, MK can survive at that %) Missed obvious edgehogs (right after the reverse Fsmash near the beginning). Definitley not top. Mid level ICs IMO.

Is kirk considered the top Ike BTW? I know he is one of them, but I'm not sure about specifics.

 

[DMG]

Ice Climbers actually can get around his Fair. Depending on where he starts it up, they can SH Squall and hit him before or after Fair. You can also running spotdodge his Fair with BOTH IC's.

It's not a completely easy matchup, but I still think IC's win. Especially when Ike is forced to approach.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Kirk was for quite a while, but then he had to stop playing for a long time. He's only been in two tournaments for the last several months, got 9th in one, and then won the next won though it was a free tournament. It's kinda hard to say if he's still the best, though it's still the most respected. That, and we have more Ikes that are closer to the top then back then. *shrugs*

As for the Fair stuff: I honestly find it hard to believe that SH Squall would hit a retreating Fair.

 

[Palpi]

I don't know about the fair stuff, but IC still win.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'd say Zss, but TL has strong tourney backings as well.

They've kinda gone back and forth as far as who has the edge in tourney results, to be honest. I don't know how many players could be considered pros and are adding to TLs results, but ZSS has done pretty well if you consider there are really only 3-4 pros.