The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Spelt]

Everyone's definition of 'pro' is different.
that's not a very good point, if you ask me.

 

[phi1ny3]

They've kinda gone back and forth as far as who has the edge in tourney results, to be honest. I don't know how many players could be considered pros and are adding to TLs results, but ZSS has done pretty well if you consider there are really only 3-4 pros.

Yeah I do know TL's potential (Chip's in my area, and despite what some other WA players say *coughJemcough* he's got some pretty good stuff.
I agree though that ZSS has been doing amazingly well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ice Climbers actually can get around his Fair. Depending on where he starts it up, they can SH Squall and hit him before or after Fair. You can also running spotdodge his Fair with BOTH IC's.

It's not a completely easy matchup, but I still think IC's win. Especially when Ike is forced to approach.

Actually, recently found something interesting out, Fair is only safe on shield because of the shield-pushback, if the momentium from run takes up more then 6 frames (the difference between nana and popo reactions) I'm switching sides on this.

 

[Nefarious B]

Everyone's definition of 'pro' is different.
that's not a very good point, if you ask me.

It's pretty ambiguous, which is why I said there are 3-5 depending on how you define the word. It's pretty obvious though that to be a "pro" you have to do well at tournies, and have to be able to roll with other pros.

It is a good point though, because when you have a character who has consistently done well despite having only a few people contributing to her tournie results, that should tell you something about the character (high learning curve, high potential)

 

[Nestec]

...What is that supposed to link to?

Nvm, you're banned, HAHAHHHAAAH.

jk

---

Yeah, I don't know much about the Ike v ICs match-up (so I should probably shut up), but I don't see it being anything less than 55:45 in favor of ICs...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I told you guys earlier that ICs beat Ike.

DMG, what do you think of ICs vs Wario? I find it incredibly hard to approach the ICs with Wario. If I try to dair them I risk getting ***** by uair (that thing can do like 30% o_0) and every other approach gets beaten by desynched Blizzards...airdodging one of their moves is also extremely risky because if they bait it they can grab Wario for an easy 0-death. Aircamping also isn't really useful if you can't get the lead so I really wonder how to play it ... imo Wario vs ICs will be a key match-up for Warios metagame because if more ICs show up and he can't consistently beat them he will drop down quite a bit. He already loses to MK and goes at best even with Snake. I don't think he's the third best character...

 

[gm jack]

I told you guys earlier that ICs beat Ike.

DMG, what do you think of ICs vs Wario? I find it incredibly hard to approach the ICs with Wario. If I try to dair them I risk getting ***** by uair (that thing can do like 30% o_0) and every other approach gets beaten by desynched Blizzards...airdodging one of their moves is also extremely risky because if they bait it they can grab Wario for an easy 0-death. Aircamping also isn't really useful if you can't get the lead so I really wonder how to play it ... imo Wario vs ICs will be a key match-up for Warios metagame because if more ICs show up and he can't consistently beat them he will drop down quite a bit. He already loses to MK and goes at best even with Snake. I don't think he's the third best character...

I think it is a matchup that Wario needs down very well to have even. Otherwise, the IC **** it.

However, he does go even with MK and Snake. I think the only bad match ups are Marth and maybe Peach IIRC.

 

[TheMike]

wario boards is discussing the IC match-up...
about IC vs Ike, it´s around 60:40 for IC, or something like that =]

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Kirk was for quite a while, but then he had to stop playing for a long time. He's only been in two tournaments for the last several months, got 9th in one, and then won the next won though it was a free tournament. It's kinda hard to say if he's still the best, though it's still the most respected. That, and we have more Ikes that are closer to the top then back then. *shrugs*

As for the Fair stuff: I honestly find it hard to believe that SH Squall would hit a retreating Fair.

SH squall would hit, because the ICs move in the air about 3 times faster (no, really) when they squall. They probably would have to be pretty well spaced (just out of the fair range) to do it though.

To everyone commenting on the IC V Ike MU: Heave you ever played it, or seen it played at a decent level of play? If not, kindly STFU, because you have no idea what you are talking about outside of theroy. I have played it at an upper mid level, and it's close to 50/50 from all of my experiences. I'll get A_B and Error to come in there and give a say on it if I can.

 

[Nestec]

To everyone commenting on the IC V Ike MU: Heave you ever played it, or seen it played at a decent level of play? If not, kindly STFU, because you have no idea what you are talking about outside of theroy.

How about you just don't listen to us then? We can say what we want. Whether or not our opinion is considered is up to you.

And sorry, I was not aware that your experiences mattered.

---

So I heard Lucario is starting to suck. Discussion?

 

[SuSa]

More like his good mains left to bigger and better things. I think Lee Martin is like.. the only good Lucario left.

 

[Nestec]

Is Azen back for good? He won a tournament recently, and I'm pretty sure he used Lucario the whole way through...

 

[Tarmogoyf]

How about you just don't listen to us then? We can say what we want. Whether or not our opinion is considered is up to you.

And sorry, I was not aware that your experiences mattered.

---

So I heard Lucario is starting to suck. Discussion?

It matters more than someone who has no legitimate experience whatsoever. A mid level player who has played the matchup and mains said character probably knows more than people who have never touched either character, or even seen a set of the 2 characters play. It's not the fact that people are discussing it, it's stuff like:

about IC vs Ike, it´s around 60:40 for IC, or something like that

It's completley baseless, and useless. If you actually have something to say, do so, but don't just spew random numbers with no basis.

I did come off like a prick though, so I apoligize for that. But don't spew hyperbole people, please?

 

[Vermy]

Konnichiwa Susa-san!

^_^

I concur. Even down here, Lucario mains are scarce. Australia only really has DJ Browny as a noted Lucario main. a couple people in my city dabble in him, but nobody mains him seriously. Blue Kung-Fu Raccoon lacks rep.

 

[Red Arremer]

Same in Europe. There's no really notable Lucario here, everyone who plays Lucario plays him as a secondary or for the lulz.

 

[PhantomX]

More like his good mains left to bigger and better things. I think Lee Martin is like.. the only good Lucario left.

Lee uses a lot of other characters to help where Lucario needs it.

 

[Nestec]

It's completley baseless, and useless. If you actually have something to say, do so, but don't just spew random numbers with no basis.

I agree that it's senseless, especially if he didn't say "in my opinion" or "i think". But telling him to STFU really doesn't solve the problem, lol.

I did come off like a prick though, so I apoligize for that. But don't spew hyperbole people, please?

It's chill.

 

[phi1ny3]

How about you just don't listen to us then? We can say what we want. Whether or not our opinion is considered is up to you.

And sorry, I was not aware that your experiences mattered.

---

So I heard Lucario is starting to suck. Discussion?

Azen won a tourney recently with lucario.
CO18 is secondarying him, and is doing well on the ladder with only lucario, which I guess is good, considering it's wifi and all.
Lee's really good, but hardly pulls out lucario.
Zucco's pretty good too as far as I've seen.
WC is pretty much the No Man's Land for Lucario, and he's also pretty rare in Europe/Japan too. I'd have to say though that D3 covers a lot of lucario's bad MUs, minus Olimar really (and Oli's not bad either)

 

[Nestec]

So it's just that his mains are slacking, huh? Cause I really don't believe that Lucario is a bad character. At least, not a C-Tier character.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Lucario needs rep. Haven't we done this before? He has no big weaknesses, (minor ones though) good range, decent survivability, gets amazing if not killed quickly, good priority, true combos at earlier percents, a spammable projectile that can kill if not overused in the early game, and is even a pokemon. What more do you want?

10Lucarioneedsmoreplayers

 

[orange/xd]

I can't think of any Lucarios in my region.

 

[phi1ny3]

Even recovering isn't an issue due to the properties of everything except his actual recovery being pretty good, and Wallcling is pretty good.
My biggest beef with him as a character is his high SH that gets a bit annoying when fighting smaller characters with a solid ground game (Oli comes to mind), and the relatively slow startup of his moves (I just wish they made his jab come out on frame 4 or something like that, instead of 6).

 

[mountain_tiger]

Hey Onishiba, how come you main ZSS now? Don't get me wrong, you're allowed to play who you want. I just find it strange that you went from Fox to her.

You'd think there'd be more Lucario players really tbh. I mean, he has a decent amount of potential and decent matchups, and he doesn't have a ridiculous leanring curve like Ice Climbers of Olimar.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm just wondering why lucario isn't too popular internationally besides I think PR (although they have a pretty strong smash scene).

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Even recovering isn't an issue due to the properties of everything except his actual recovery being pretty good, and Wallcling is pretty good.
My biggest beef with him as a character is his high SH that gets a bit annoying when fighting smaller characters with a solid ground game (Oli comes to mind), and the relatively slow startup of his moves (I just wish they made his jab come out on frame 4 or something like that, instead of 6).

Doesn't Lucario's Dair stop him in the middle of his shorthop? I thought he hung in the air while doing it, allowing him to aerial right at the ground.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The Lucario boards could not comprehend the idea of Ike ever beating Lucario. They thought it was 8-2 Lucario's favor or something crazy like that.

The Lucario boards never took anyone seriously who said 8-2 Lucario. Heck even 3-7 Lucario was thought to be too far.

 

[phi1ny3]

Doesn't Lucario's Dair stop him in the middle of his shorthop? I thought he hung in the air while doing it, allowing him to aerial right at the ground.

yup, it's an option sometimes used against roll/spotdodge/someone below a platform. It would prolly be better if he had an arc for a hitbox, but that would make his dair prolly even more broken lol.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

yup, it's an option sometimes used against roll/spotdodge/someone below a platform. It would prolly be better if he had an arc for a hitbox, but that would make his dair prolly even more broken lol.

Ok, so it's not a good diagonal approach then? Just a generally great move.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, but unfortunately people get the misconception that it's overrated when in actuality it's usually that the lucario doesn't space them well (dair, fsmash, etc.). Remember, his disjoints aren't apparent like a sword, those bursts are actually a bit difficult to decipher exactly how much range it has. Practicing helps, but sometimes the range on some things even surprises the best of lucarios.
Makes me wish we had that hitbox project like on Melee with debug mode.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Yeah, but unfortunately people get the misconception that it's overrated when in actuality it's usually that the lucario doesn't space them well (dair, fsmash, etc.). Remember, his disjoints aren't apparent like a sword, those bursts are actually a bit difficult to decipher exactly how much range it has. Practicing helps, but sometimes the range on some things even surprises the best of lucarios.
Makes me wish we had that hitbox project like on Melee with debug mode.

Yeah, they seem to have the completeley invisible disjoints, beyond even the blue aura that is visible. The same applies to a few other non lucario moves, like Jigglypuffs pound and Dair, snake tilts (LOL, if no one noticed), other moves I'm forgetting no doubt.

Also, does his range increase with his damage? I always get the impression that it does.

I'm sure the B+ people have found a way to get specific hitbox's range down. Does anyone on the Lucario boards ferquent B+ forums?

 

[phi1ny3]

He doesn't get range, but he does get priority, knockback, damage, and shield pressure. I guess AS gets more range from having a bigger hitbox though lol.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

He doesn't get range, but he does get priority, knockback, damage, and shield pressure. I guess AS gets more range from having a bigger hitbox though lol.

Ok, that makes sense.

And LOL, Aura Sphere starts hitting plankers after a certain percent, it certianly gets more range.

 

[ruin`]

More like his good mains left to bigger and better things. I think Lee Martin is like.. the only good Lucario left.

Lee martin didn't go all lucario at ohsnap. Simply a good player using a high tier at best. He wouldn't use lucario vs good king dedede mains or snake mains.

There are only a few players who use only ONE character as their main. Dojo, ultimaterazer, gnes, lain (cuz he sucks with d3), dehf, sk92, dabuz, adhd and the list goes on.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Same in Europe. There's no really notable Lucario here, everyone who plays Lucario plays him as a secondary or for the lulz.

I hate your name change.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lee martin didn't go all lucario at ohsnap. Simply a good player using a high tier at best. He wouldn't use lucario vs good king dedede mains or snake mains.

There are only a few players who use only ONE character as their main. Dojo, ultimaterazer, gnes, lain (cuz he sucks with d3), dehf, sk92, dabuz, adhd and the list goes on.

EddyAzen would go. (though in retrospect, he's done other chars before, so I guess maybe not)
*Surfing memes ftw*
Now about Lucas and the tier area around there...

 

[SuSa]

Lee martin didn't go all lucario at ohsnap. Simply a good player using a high tier at best. He wouldn't use lucario vs good king dedede mains or snake mains.

There are only a few players who use only ONE character as their main. Dojo, ultimaterazer, gnes, lain (cuz he sucks with d3), dehf, sk92, dabuz, adhd and the list goes on.

Then I was wrong about Lee... I said I THINK there was only one left.

I know quite a few people who only use one character. But out of that list, you have to take into account what characters they are using.

 

[etecoon]

azen just won a tournament with lucario actually

and wtf tons of people only really main one character, I think it's more common than trying to main more than one if anything, knowing one character intimately > knowing a bunch decently(of course if you play enough to do both then it can work well)

 

[demonictoonlink]

Lee martin didn't go all lucario at ohsnap. Simply a good player using a high tier at best. He wouldn't use lucario vs good king dedede mains or snake mains.

There are only a few players who use only ONE character as their main. Dojo, ultimaterazer, gnes, lain (cuz he sucks with d3), dehf, sk92, dabuz, adhd and the list goes on.

list is completely wrong. Look up some.
Lain often uses D3. sk92 occasionally goes meta. IDK about the rest.

 

[lain]

Yeah wtf are you talking about son my DDD is top 3 in the world. Last time I checked I've beaten a cavalcade of top players with DDD.

 

[choknater]

**** son.... a cavalcade

i've only beaten a myriad