mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Well, I was mainly thinking of characters like Marth that have moderately fast pummels... With characters with slower pummels... yeah it's slower than a chaingrab. Either way, the job doesn't get done very quickly...
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
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Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
The reason I'm so invested in these grab-release things is because ZSS has a lot of them and I've always wanted to use them, but many of them are either standing (thus banned, I thought) or do very little damage and are only good for walk-offs.
However, I'm not above getting a free stock on Squirtle out of a grab (even if it takes two minutes), so....
However, I'm not above getting a free stock on Squirtle out of a grab (even if it takes two minutes), so....
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
its cause turnament rules are hypocritical concerning infinites.
How is Fox supposed to do better against MK, Marth and Falco?
Wolfs tools beat Fox' tools in every way, there's no logical explanation on why Fox should do better against any of them.
How can Fox do better vs Marth? Wolf can do more against Marth's zoning game than Fox can. Wolfs reatreating fair/bair can beat Marths aerials if used correctly and his ftilt also outranges all of Marths ground moves. Fox dies ten times earlier than Wolf and that covers one of Marths biggest issues right away. There's no way that Fox is doing better.
MK is a similar case although he doesn't have **** CGs against Fox (Wolf isn't nearly affected by Marths CGs as much as Fox). However Wolf still has much better (anti-) zoning tools than Fox does and Wolfs mobility in the air gives him more opportunities to avoid MKs hits in the air. Wolf also doesn't die at 120% but survives fresh dsmashed at 180% on BF (suck it Fox).
Fox is doing better against them than Wolf? No way, man. No way.
An extremely fast moveset that provides him with a lot of options and frame traps. Wolf's "tools" are pretty much limited to bair, shine, and, laser. That's why there are like NO Wolf mains over here........because Wolf is so god**** predictable. Main reason why he dropped(below Fox I might add which is what I was pulling for ever since last summer).How is Fox supposed to do better against MK, Marth and Falco?
Wolfs tools beat Fox' tools in every way, there's no logical explanation on why Fox should do better against any of them.
How can Fox do better vs Marth? Wolf can do more against Marth's zoning game than Fox can. Wolfs reatreating fair/bair can beat Marths aerials if used correctly and his ftilt also outranges all of Marths ground moves. Fox dies ten times earlier than Wolf and that covers one of Marths biggest issues right away. There's no way that Fox is doing better.
MK is a similar case although he doesn't have **** CGs against Fox (Wolf isn't nearly affected by Marths CGs as much as Fox). However Wolf still has much better (anti-) zoning tools than Fox does and Wolfs mobility in the air gives him more opportunities to avoid MKs hits in the air. Wolf also doesn't die at 120% but survives fresh dsmashed at 180% on BF (suck it Fox).
Fox is doing better against them than Wolf? No way, man. No way.
Fox kills earlier than Wolf. He is hella light which makes Fox one of those risk and reward types. He doesn't get gimped near as much as Wolf and actually has options when returning to the stage.
Foxs' ground speed enables him to get inside of Marth.....actually that doesn't even matter because Fox never has to approach. IDA can punish most of Marth's moveset OoS.
You talk about Wolf's aerial movement but Fox is fast as f*** on the ground so that pretty much nullifies that.
Yea your right Wolf doesn't die at 120% against MK......he dies at 80% as soon as he's knocked offstage.
LOL, good point there.
Yep, same here.Jack Frost said:
---
Hey, do Wolf players actually use that ledge-scar technique? The one where he cuts through the lip of the stage with his >B?
I can break out of Marth's grab if he pummels me once up til about 35-40%. Even the fastest pummelers (who can infinite Wario from an air break of course) are relatively slow/don't do much damage.
Like, for characters who have grab release infinites against Wario, they are dealt a semi contradicting situation. The more they pummel, the better of a chance Wario has to get out to the ground. So to avoid this, they do less pummels. However, if they decide to do so, Wario can decide not to move at all and delay when he gets released for quite a long time.
Also another problem with standing grab release infinites, now that I think about it. If they were to be completely allowed (no restrictions/regulations), what is stopping someone from purposely throwing in "empty" grabs where they grab me but don't do anything after they grab me, just to run out the clock? This isn't an issue with Dedede, where if he waits and does nothing the opponent can break to the ground/jump break, but when someone like Wario is forced to air release over and over and his opponent chooses not to damage him, you have an issue.
In that scenario, do you limit how many empty grabs they can do total, how many they can do in a row without interruption, how many they can do with interruption, do you not allow them to do so?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You can't limit how many empty grabs they perform simply because there really is no way to monitor it.
Its similar to the Peach bomb and ganondorf invincibility in melee.
Either way, there is no method by which you can ban an infinite without banning all the others.
Edit: Forgive the typos, I am burning some DVD's
Its similar to the Peach bomb and ganondorf invincibility in melee.
Either way, there is no method by which you can ban an infinite without banning all the others.
Edit: Forgive the typos, I am burning some DVD's
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
<3 marsulas.
Fox is a Glass Cannon.
Fox is a Glass Cannon.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
In Atlantic North, which unfortunately and fortunately is my region. Unfortunately because they tend to have way too much banned. Fortunately because the region is mad talented.
You're amazing so you'd beat me anyway.
Edit: that was general commentary on using matches between individuals to prove match-ups, I know it wasn't directed at me.
Individualize it for the characters.
ICs honestly only need like 150 for example.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Wait just a minute. Standing grab release infinites are banned, but D3's infinite isn't? That makes no sense whatsoever if that's true...
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Why? Dedede's CGs are not Infinites or Standing (in Bowser's case). The only whom Dedede got a standing infinite on is Donkey Kong.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Yes, but if it's a standing infinite against him, and other standing infinites like grab releases are banned, why not D3's infinite against DK?
Now, I'm not trying to say that all infinites should be banned (personally, I think that the standing infinites should be allowed), but you should apply the same rules to all standing infinites. Other infinites which are harder to do (e.g. any of the IC's chaingrabs) wouldn't be counted obviously. Basically, why ban standing infinites when you don't ban D3's infinite on DK? Or am I missing something really obvious here?
Now, I'm not trying to say that all infinites should be banned (personally, I think that the standing infinites should be allowed), but you should apply the same rules to all standing infinites. Other infinites which are harder to do (e.g. any of the IC's chaingrabs) wouldn't be counted obviously. Basically, why ban standing infinites when you don't ban D3's infinite on DK? Or am I missing something really obvious here?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I don't know the rules of Atlantic North exactly, but I know several regions have banned Infinites.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Why does ground speed>a good approach?
Even though, yes, Fox is fast on the ground, I don't see how it stops him from having a mediocre approach and mediocre defensive options other than OoS retreated nair. When he runs in to approach, what is he going to do? One of his better approaches (SH Fair, DId away towards the end) is very height specific, and many characters can crouch, crawl, or just stand under it and punish. Other than that, he doesn't have much range on many of his attacks, and is usually easilly punished by a shieldgrab or OoS attack.
His camping game also isn't that great. He can't camp well and actually keep camping; he has to run and shoot lasers because they have no hitstun. It's good because they come out quickly, and his ground speed makes it easier for him to run and get in more lasers, but it's bad with the limited defensive options that he has--many characters can easily approach. His tilts are okay; dtilt is meh, ftilt can be used for range and poking attempts, and utilt chains into more utilts at low percents. His aerials are okay; D-air is easily shieldgrabbed, if you get hit with F-air, you can easily DI out of it and punish with a free aerial, N-air can be used for retreating, B-air is a strong hit with meh-ish range and very little lag on landing, U-air kills.
It also sucks that he's the fastest faller in the game, and many characters have stupid options against him. There's his unwinnable MUs: Pika, Shiek, (ICs?) where Wolf has his unwinnable MUs: D3, (Shiek kinda, ICs?). However, many characters are able to chain utilts on him til 40%, or have some low percent chaingrab on him, like Marth's or Peach's. Diddy is able to chain utilts and dtilts cleanly from low-mid percents because of his fast-fallness.
I know for a fact, being a Diddy main, that the Wolf vs. Diddy matchup is much tougher than the Wolf vs. Fox matchup, and was almost certain that given the fact that Wolf has better zoning tools, better range and approaches, and a better mid-range pressure game, that his matchup with Marth is also better. I'm not sure about his MUs with Falco and MK, but I think they'd be about the same.
Fox beats Wolf at recovery and killing. That's basically it. Other than that, Wolf has the tools to approach, decent defensive options, good range, and good mid-range pressure. Just because Wolf's metagame is moving at a snail's pace (which can really be said for quite a bit of characters) doesn't mean that he loses these core things of his gameplay.
Wolf shouldn't be below Fox.
Even though, yes, Fox is fast on the ground, I don't see how it stops him from having a mediocre approach and mediocre defensive options other than OoS retreated nair. When he runs in to approach, what is he going to do? One of his better approaches (SH Fair, DId away towards the end) is very height specific, and many characters can crouch, crawl, or just stand under it and punish. Other than that, he doesn't have much range on many of his attacks, and is usually easilly punished by a shieldgrab or OoS attack.
His camping game also isn't that great. He can't camp well and actually keep camping; he has to run and shoot lasers because they have no hitstun. It's good because they come out quickly, and his ground speed makes it easier for him to run and get in more lasers, but it's bad with the limited defensive options that he has--many characters can easily approach. His tilts are okay; dtilt is meh, ftilt can be used for range and poking attempts, and utilt chains into more utilts at low percents. His aerials are okay; D-air is easily shieldgrabbed, if you get hit with F-air, you can easily DI out of it and punish with a free aerial, N-air can be used for retreating, B-air is a strong hit with meh-ish range and very little lag on landing, U-air kills.
It also sucks that he's the fastest faller in the game, and many characters have stupid options against him. There's his unwinnable MUs: Pika, Shiek, (ICs?) where Wolf has his unwinnable MUs: D3, (Shiek kinda, ICs?). However, many characters are able to chain utilts on him til 40%, or have some low percent chaingrab on him, like Marth's or Peach's. Diddy is able to chain utilts and dtilts cleanly from low-mid percents because of his fast-fallness.
I know for a fact, being a Diddy main, that the Wolf vs. Diddy matchup is much tougher than the Wolf vs. Fox matchup, and was almost certain that given the fact that Wolf has better zoning tools, better range and approaches, and a better mid-range pressure game, that his matchup with Marth is also better. I'm not sure about his MUs with Falco and MK, but I think they'd be about the same.
Fox beats Wolf at recovery and killing. That's basically it. Other than that, Wolf has the tools to approach, decent defensive options, good range, and good mid-range pressure. Just because Wolf's metagame is moving at a snail's pace (which can really be said for quite a bit of characters) doesn't mean that he loses these core things of his gameplay.
Wolf shouldn't be below Fox.
Standing Infinite grab releases, like I mentioned earlier, have the issue of an opponent purposefully throwing out "empty" grabs just to stall for time. Dedede cannot do that, he can delay his throw for a bit on purpose but that just gives more time for the opponent to escape without being able to regrab them. That and the grab release ones take a lot more time to do the same Damage as Dedede/IC's CG's even if both of those characters delayed theirs/didn't pummel.
IDK if IC's are CGing like Snake or Dedede, unless their opponent isn't mashing and they have enough time to Charge the Usmash/Fsmash, there's a good chance Snake or Dedede or even DK could live past 150%. If they do indeed live past 150% (whether it be from a CG or not, or a large stage/ceiling like Japes/Castle Siege/whatever), what happens then? Can the IC player still go for the CG, or is he not allowed to because he's already past that mark? If he's allowed to, how much further can he go?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
And what part about this is "standing"? I didn't say Dedede has no Infinite on Bowser, I said that he has no Standing Infinite.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Speaking of which, aren't Mario, Luigi and Samus standing infinites? I mean, from the video I saw of it, all the D3 player had to d was pummel a couple of times, then do the throw. Granted, you probably need around 50% in order to do that, but the point still stands.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Your information is extremely outdated. This was back then when people didn't know how to DI properly. They can break out. It's not an Infinite until kill percents.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
They found a way to break out? If so, then fair enough I guess.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I want to state again that only the characters in S and A Tier are definitely and properly ordered, and the rest of the tier list is not accurate to the point since it didn't get as much attention. Wolf is below Fox here, but I personally think they both have similar potential. If it makes you happy, interchange them in your personal tier list, it doesn't matter at all.
Exact positions don't matter that much in these parts of the list.
@Gheb:
DI = DIRECTIONAL INFLUENCE
I'd call buttonmashing very well directional influence.
Exact positions don't matter that much in these parts of the list.
@Gheb:
DI = DIRECTIONAL INFLUENCE
I'd call buttonmashing very well directional influence.
So ledge infinites aren't standing anymore?
O,o
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Look at the name of this type of infinite. "Ledge". There. Do you see the difference?
Frown
poekmon
Doesn't Dedede have the highest top speed when fastfalling? Just asking.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Yes, but Fox has faster acceleration.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
ICs cgs -___________-
kingcobra9
Smash Ace
are absolutley beautiful
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
did you see the part where you can do the walking CG until you are in the right position to ledge infinite him?
smashkng
Smash Lord
I think except DK the others don't work if the down throw is signinficantly staled. Because of this, DDD should pummel to control staleness which allow escape at low percentages.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
That is Walking Chaingrab leading into a Ledge Infinite. I still don't see a Standing Infinite anywhere.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
agreed and editted for truth
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
You can't trip from walking; only from dashing.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
not to mention that DDD is always gauranteed a down tilt after down throw on bowser
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
No, it's worse for Donkey Kong since Dedede doesn't even have to get to the ledge or step forward.
Though it's pretty much unwinnable for both. I think it doesn't matter who gets ***** harder out of those 2, lol.
Though it's pretty much unwinnable for both. I think it doesn't matter who gets ***** harder out of those 2, lol.
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