The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Dark.Pch]

Ahh i cant play during then, I am heading to Otakon during that weekend.

Dammit dude you suck!

Between players, it doesn't prove who's better.

With mundane debates like these where you're trying to prove whether or not one move beats another or if a technique will work against a given character consistently, it fulfills its purpose.

Offline is better, Wifi is a convenient alternative.

I am not trying to prove who is the better play. But prove a point on what was talked about in this debate. So the real way for me to show him my points and him show his is to play each other in a match. So no, it is not pointless, but doing things the right way.

 

[da K.I.D.]

foxs comboes are better and more gauranteed, his pressure game is better, his camping is way better, and he can recover,

thats what i come up with from playing both characters off the top of my head

 

[ShadowLink84]

XD i had arranged things a year earlier.

@kid: What?

 

[Browny]

hay guise i herd this was the tier list discussion thread

 

[Matador]

I am not trying to prove who is the better play. But prove a point on what was talked about in this debate. So the real way for me to show him my points and him show his is to play each other in a match.

Did you....Did you just agree with me?

So no, it is not pointless, but doing things the right way.

...Then disagree?

You're NOT trying to prove who's better, but trying to prove a point in the debate. You tried points which ended up boiling down to:

"Dair beats Uair/Bair"

"No, you have to time it"

"nu-uh"

"ya-huh"

So the best way to prove your point without causing me any further rectal discomfort is to prove it in-game....over wifi. Try and jab him out of spindash a few times too while you're at it.

The "Right" way is the one that gets **** done.

 

[JayBee]

wow DarkPch, if sonic was so easily destroyed by two moves peach had, then going on wifi shouldn't even be an issue, unless it takes ******** levels of skill to press A or something... Plus, last time I checked, Peach has trouble killing, so even if she landed more hits, sonic can outlast her just as well.

i dont even care that Peach has an advantage over sonic. in my experience it doesn't even seem that bad of a matchup, win or lose. more annoying than anything, but nothing a bit o patience didn't fix. you just have to play smart is all. you making it seem like sonic can't touch peach is messed up son.

besides the last time someone said one move beats sonic, he got proven wrong as MK, so just don't be that guy, lest you be that guy.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Did you....Did you just agree with me?



...Then disagree?

You're NOT trying to prove who's better, but trying to prove a point in the debate. You tried points which ended up boiling down to:

"Dair beats Uair/Bair"

"No, you have to time it"

"nu-uh"

"ya-huh"

So the best way to prove your point without causing me any further rectal discomfort is to prove it in-game....over wifi. Try and jab him out of spindash a few times too while you're at it.

The "Right" way is the one that gets **** done.

WTF??????????????????? Dude you are like backwards right now.

wow DarkPch, if sonic was so easily destroyed by two moves peach had, then going on wifi shouldn't even be an issue, unless it takes ******** levels of skill to press A or something... Plus, last time I checked, Peach has trouble killing, so even if she landed more hits, sonic can outlast her just as well.

i dont even care that Peach has an advantage over sonic. in my experience it doesn't even seem that bad of a matchup, win or lose. more annoying than anything, but nothing a bit o patience didn't fix. you just have to play smart is all. you making it seem like sonic can't touch peach is messed up son.

besides the last time someone said one move beats sonic, he got proven wrong as MK, so just don't be that guy, lest you be that guy.

Wifi does not mean anything if you wanna prove something. I can play someone who beats me all the time on wifi. Then I can play him offline and in tournaments all the time and he never scratch a match off me. Understand why offline means more then online. And Last I check, Sonic has toruble killing......your point? Why bring this up?

And I never once said sonic could not touch Peach. Listen to what I am saying and stop letting the anger from your main tell you otherwise. And I and not BS'ing when I say 1-2 moves can beat all that sonic does. I am gonna assume you are that sonic player I played in pools at apex. If you are, you should know better than to say all of this after that set we had.

 

[Matador]

WTF??????????????????? Dude you are like backwards right now.

So effin backwards.

 

[JayBee]

Wifi does not mean anything if you wanna prove something. I can play someone who beats me all the time on wifi. Then I can play him offline and in tournaments all the time and he never scratch a match off me. Understand why offline means more then online. And Last I check, Sonic has toruble killing......your point? Why bring this up?

And I never once said sonic could not touch Peach. Listen to what I am saying and stop letting the anger from your main tell you otherwise. And I and not BS'ing when I say 1-2 moves can beat all that sonic does. I am gonna assume you are that sonic player I played in pools at apex. If you are, you should know better than to say all of this after that set we had.

what the hell does that mean? you beat me in one set, wow, so what? lol get it out of your head that you like, ***** me or something because you are lying to yourself. I'm still confident in the peach matchup regradless and that one loss didn't change my analysis at all. don't you think you are being a little bit overconfident on that? I've played peach's before that in terms of talent and technical ability are just as good or surpass yours, so that one loss had no effect on my opinions on that matchup.

If you are saying that all you need is 1-2 moves to stop EVERYTHING sonic has, you are basically saying that sonic can't do anything to you, amirite? and you still ignore the cancels argument.

even if wifi doesn't allow you to play like you do offline, if dudes that play it come to offline tourneys and do well (which they have) then in a sence that argument is somewhat invalid, though it gives people something to john about...

i'm not angey at all, but i am annoyed when people throw out extremes like that in such an iffy game like Brawl.

 

[Brinzy]

I support online play.

+1 vote from Joe Nobody.

 

[JayBee]

wifi has its place.

saying that its compeletly useless simply because you not good on it is basically an act of foolishness.

 

[Dark.Pch]

what the hell does that mean? you beat me in one set, wow, so what? I'm still confident in the peach matchup regradless and that one loss didn't change my analysis at all. don't you think you are being a little bit overconfident on that? I've played peach's before that in terms of talent and technical ability are just as good or surpass yours, so that one loss had no effect on my opinions on that matchup.

If you are saying that all you need is 1-2 moves to stop EVERYTHING sonic has, you are basically saying that sonic can't do anything to you, amirite? and you still ignore the cancels argument.

even if wifi doesn't allow you to play like you do offline, if dudes that play it come to offline tourneys and do well (which they have) then in a sence that argument is somewhat invalid, though it gives people something to john about...

i'm not angey at all, but i am annoyed when people throw out extremes like that in such an iffy game like Brawl.

You seriously need to cool it. You going nutz of lil crap. And you failed to see what I ment with my example if you are even talking like this about it.

And that is what I am saying, 1-2 moves can beat all that sonic does. Yet the match up is still 60-40 Peach. Why is that? Why is that if I can beat all you through at me, that the match up is not worst that 60-40? I explained why a while back, and sonic mains explain this too.

And I brought up me playing you cause you seem to be taking this to another level when I have sown you just what Peach can do to you. Then you come at me like this. Makes no sense. What you need to do is sit down and think about what I am telling you. And stop assuming so much from me about me saying that Peach has 1-2 moves that stop all of sonics ****.

And just like you, I go up to metas and snakes and G&W ready to beat thier azzes. Wether they have the advantage or not, those three arent **** to me and put no fear in me, just a bunch of high tiers to beat up. So Please don't give me that. I freaking go all Peach in tournaments and have to deal with gay game play and match ups not in my favor at all. I kno what it is about and what I must do to come out on top.

 

[JayBee]

uh... why am i the only one apperently getting angry when people were having issues with you saying the same thing? All I wanted from you was to stop OD'ing this "massive advantage" concept, especially, as you have said the matchup is only 60:40 peach ( and i understand for the most part why that is). btw, before that last post, you really didn't say anything other than how "peach stops everything sonic can do" for a good number of posts; your last one finally showed some glimpse that you at least know the matchup isn't as easy as that, which was what i was trying to point out to you.

and stop saying im getting angry over it because i'm not. i was over that a long time ago. you make it seem like you showed me the light or something, but in reality, its not something I haven't seen before, so i already knew before hand, ok?

Everyone not playing a high tier character deals with the last statement, not just you, and last time i checked peach isn't a garbage character. so don't give me that.

I'm done here. if you still think im upset about it then too bad.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually dark I think the issue is that if the match was worse than 60-40 it means that Peach cant beat everything or, simply that she cannot answer everything in a more efficient manner.

Emblem Lord used a nice term for it awhile back, option select.
If a character A uses move A in response to character B's move A',B' and C'.
That is option select.
The ability to use one option to answer several.

If Peach had such incredible option select as you put it, then that would mean the matchup is much worse than 6-4. However, based on the characters abilities, it cannot be said that Peach has option select towards Sonic. She cannot simply use 1-2 moves in an effort to repel Sonic because he can answer her options with his own. Otherwise, she would suffer no effort in beating Sonic because she can easily overcome his options with her two, and know she would always have a method to beat it regardless of what Sonic does.

If it is 6-4 and statements of, "peach can break everything sonic has with one or two moves." then the ratio must indicate a greater disadvantage, or the statement is wrong.

An example is G&W vs Zelda, one of the matchups which is considered hard counter, simply because G&W can answer her with only 1 or 2 moves. Option select.

He shuts her down completely.
If peach is doing this to Sonic, then the ratio is much worse.

Hence the issue with your argument dark, by all means it sounds like Peach should be a hard counter though you said it isn't correct?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well if sonic and Peach players wanna come together and change the ratio then that is on you. I can beat all of sonics moves with 2 of mines. Ok, thoes that man Sonic can't s\do **** about it. I have characters that when Vs Peach, they can beat all that she can do. Like Marth for example. So this means Peach can't beat his azz? No it does not. I have to be careful with what I do, cause this dude can just shut my whole **** down.

Sonic is annoying as hell to fight with Peach. Really cause of my speed compared to his over all. Then I have to be careful when I float cause of his lil spin combos that can clap her out of it easy. Me and Wes go at it in Peach vs Sonic. Its usually even in wins or I may have a lil more than him. Wes is not spyupid and with all this on him, he plays the right way to get his wins on me.

You and the others are takling this to another direction. Point was Peach can beat all he does with 2 moves, that is it, done. nothing more or less.

But of course don't take me seriously and look at it another way. So I'll I say talk to Wes who plays me alot, who also agrees to this. Wes was the one who said this in the first place. then playing him some more I realized it myself.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Okay then I understand what you mean Dark pch, it was mostly an error in what we were discussing then.
You were referring to Sonic's behavior when he attacks directly then while I was referring to overall behavior. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, that is all I ment.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Cool now if only the tierlist was so easily discussed @_@

 

[Dark.Pch]

It's a tier list. Not gonna happen.

 

[Frown]

Let's discuss KIRBY.

His fsmash is pwn

 

[Red Arremer]

He has red feet.

 

[Teran]

He gets more annoying every game.
He was cool in 64.
Ok but a bit annoying in Melee.
Epically hateable in Brawl.

Also, he should be top tier because he can copy people's attacks. That's like way broken, he can use Mach Tornado.

 

[DMG]

Kirby would be better if he had a better game plan than

1. Grab
2. Bair
3. Smash, preferably Fsmash
4. Pray a move like Side B, Down B hits

 

[Anth0ny]

He gets more annoying every game.
He was cool in 64.
Ok but a bit annoying in Melee.

Implying that Kirby is anything other than utter, utter trash in Melee

I lol'd.

Kirby is awesome in Brawl though. Seriously underplayed character, but I **** **** with him when I play him.

 

[mountain_tiger]

...so again.

Is there a good reason why Fox is above Wolf? I really don't know why he is.

There are probably better reasons, but here are some that I know of:

- He has a worse recovery than Fox. It's not worse in terms of distance, but he has a tiny ledge sweetspot, and recovering from certain angles is a real chore, and it reduces his survivability cosiderably.

- His metagame isn't advancing very much atm.

- He gets ***** by King Dedede (same reason why Donkey Kong isn't higher), and doesn't do too great against other top tiers.

- Fox can combo better.

 

[kingcobra9]

Combos what

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Combos what

You're so original.

 

[Frown]

Kirby would be better if he had a better game plan than

1. Grab
2. Bair
3. Smash, preferably Fsmash
4. Pray a move like Side B, Down B hits

No no no, it goes like this:

1. Use all your jumps
2. Use down B above your opponent
3. Get punished
4. Repeat

 

[UncleSam]

No no no, it goes like this:

1. Use all your jumps
2. Use down B above your opponent
3. Get punished
4. Repeat

What? I thought it was:
1. lure opponent to the edge
2. suck them up
3. die
4. repeat

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats after DMGs method, to get teh first kill

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kirby would be better if he had a better game plan than

1. Grab
2. Bair
3. Smash, preferably Fsmash
4. Pray a move like Side B, Down B hits

I have to disagree. Kirby is a better character than that. It's the players that make him seem limited to these options imo. Kirbys reputation would be better. Most Kirby players are pretty generic but Kirby has some other good moves to mix things up:

- Inhale
- Fair
- Dair
- Utilt/Ftilt

Those are all viable moves but Kirby players are rare/not very creative and don't use these moves well.

There are probably better reasons, but here are some that I know of:

- He has a worse recovery than Fox. It's not worse in terms of distance, but he has a tiny ledge sweetspot, and recovering from certain angles is a real chore, and it reduces his survivability cosiderably.

- His metagame isn't advancing very much atm.

- He gets ***** by King Dedede (same reason why Donkey Kong isn't higher), and doesn't do too great against other top tiers.

- Fox can combo better.

The only part that's true is D3 ****** Wolf. Everything else is false.

-Wolf has about the same amount of combos as Fox does and a bunch of them are actually easier to use. Wolf can combo Shine -> AAA, which is alot easier than Fox' predictable and punishable dair -> anything. Wolf can also combo FF nair -> dsmash against leightweights like MK from about 100% onwards - it's basically a guaranteed KO move, that comes out in 4 frames

- Wolfs recovery might be slightly worse than Fox' but if Wolfs recovery ever makes the difference between win or loose then it's clearly the players fault. Wolfs recovery isn't outstanding (to say the least) but it's good enough to make him able to come back to the stage against any character. He's also heavy (he can survive a fresh MK dsmash at 180% on BF) and has amazing aerial mobility making it a lot easier for him to survive.

- D3 might be considered Wolfs only "unwinnable" match-up's but everything else is managable (except Sheik, who's borderline). Fox gets flat out ***** by Pikachu and Sheik and has disadvantages against all top tier characters (except maybe Diddy). Wolf does better against Snake, MK, Wario, G&W, Marth, Kirby, ICs and Pikachu (many ppl also think vs Diddy).

- All of your points apply to Falco just as much (except point 3) yet he is still above Fox.

Wolf needs a good rep in the US. Every region except the USA know what a good character Wolf is ...

 

[Gindler]

Kirby's good and SOOOOOOO user friendly that it's pretty sad actually. Disjointed feet is lol. Incredibly powerful and rangey Fsmash. But yeah, kirby's try to force grabs, throw out Bairs hoping they'l hit, rely on Fsmash for kills too much.

@ghed. I wouldn't even call D3 vs. wolf "unwinnable" I've won it a few times but fox has a MUCH easier job. Fox goes even with snake as does wolf, fox does better vs. MK. I think fox is better but I still like playing wolf more because of his aerial speed.

 

[DMG]

Kirby's inhale and Fair are pretty terrible overall. His Dair is situational. His tilts are alright but they aren't really good at poking safely (reminds me of Marth's Ftilt with less range) or killing. It would be fine if they did either, but they do neither.

Kirby from a competitive aspect doesn't scare me. It's like, if I really want to, I can pick Marth and flat out zone him harder than he can zone Wario.

 

[PhantomX]

Kirby's Dair has massive startup, so it's not usually very viable, his Fair is easily SDIable, and his inhale leaves him vulnerable for above (plus it is VERY VERY rare to get swallocided). Inhale also does poop damage.

 

[Gindler]

Kirby is quite easily beatable. Yoshi=camp him hard (kirby doesn't deal well with camping). Wario=get around Bair and destroy him (since kirby's think an amazing Bair alone is going to win them the game)

It might just be that most kirby players are just the most predictable and bad players though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle apparently has a grab-release chaingrab on Ness and Lucas.

Get wrecked. They're never going above E Tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Squirtle apparently has a grab-release chaingrab on Ness and Lucas.

Get wrecked. They're never going above E Tier.

ZSS has an infinite grab release on squirtle. Get wrecked. Never going above low tier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ZSS has an infinite grab release on squirtle. Get wrecked. Never going above low tier.

At least Squirtle's grab is usable. :D

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

At least Squirtle's grab is usable. :D

...Touché.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Kirby's good and SOOOOOOO user friendly that it's pretty sad actually. Disjointed feet is lol. Incredibly powerful and rangey Fsmash. But yeah, kirby's try to force grabs, throw out Bairs hoping they'l hit, rely on Fsmash for kills too much.

@ghed. I wouldn't even call D3 vs. wolf "unwinnable" I've won it a few times but fox has a MUCH easier job. Fox goes even with snake as does wolf, fox does better vs. MK. I think fox is better but I still like playing wolf more because of his aerial speed.

I find Wolf's bair is alot easier to land vs Fox's.

I agree with the points the above posters made on Kirby. His utilt is a really excellent tool..i cant understand why any one playing kirby wouldnt use it. Its really good. That and his Uair, Fair i also enjoy as well.