Gindler
Smash Champion
I've had that happen to me with wario, it's annoying getting grabbed in the middle of an aerial most D3's can't grab. It's about even I'd say (as are most of IC matchups)
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
- Status
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
ICs have an odd grabbox, they can grab Ganondorf out of dtilt.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Fortunately, if you are at least somewhat skilled compared to your opponent, you should be walking away with at least one win. Stage counterpicks utterly destroy them.
Maybe Ganon's hurtbox extends on dtilt aswell. So thats probably why that happened.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Yeah, it does, but most characters' grabboxes don't extend low enough to grab the dtilt, theirs can.
The point being, because they're so small, their grabbox seems to cover their entire body.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
ICs have a bad matchup against ZSS as well. The way most people get around our insanely powerful ranged attacks is usually by PSing, but ICs can't PS well together (unless they're walking I believe). This leads to side b seperating them often, and dsmash leaving one or both stunned and ready to destroy.
And ZSS has the mobility to avoid them easily in the first place as well.
And ZSS has the mobility to avoid them easily in the first place as well.
Frown
poekmon
Unless people find out a way to way to avoid all grabs, ICs will improve their chaingrabbing skills until grab = KO in almost all cases, and ICs will be up there with MK and Snake.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
All match-ups assume grab=death. Honestly, the way everyone's been talking about it, the advantagious match-ups are ones where ICs can't grab, are easily seperated, or both. That's the way it should be.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Fixed for the sake of Link/Toon Link/Snake. As long as they always have an explosive in hand, they shouldn't get death'd.
Actually I've been working on something sick with IC's where you have it timed where you regrab with Nana right as the explosion goes off, and she will catch Snake and take grenade damage but no knock back, and then you can continue going on with your CG (Assuming you have port priority of course so Popo doesn't fly away).
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
How is it ********?
It only comes into play for a few things.
Grabbing at the same time being one of them.
Faux super armor is another.
Browny
Smash Hater
they will be 3rd by next update... surely
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
It'd be nice if it didn't exist at all, but that's something not really worth talking about.
JayBee
Smash Champion
how you figure i was playing gay?
you shouldn't talk like I was the gayest person playing our set lol.
lol this guy?
Someone needs to tell me how a sonic "camps" in the first place? this is so lol. I thought you were okay but dont overdo it. your peach could never beat my sonic that fast on a bad day. your too slow.
Like, I didn't even say anything to slander you at all, and you say this garbage. NO ONE else in the entire pool said anything similar to this, and other sonics are like wtf because they no this doesn't sound like my usual game. End me in 4 minutes? lol dont even.
I think you are mistaking camping for a defensive playstyle against certain characters. Just a heads up, since you decided to act like this, that whole set, the whole tourney even, I was attempting to adopt a defensive style when i needed it later in tourneys. our set didn't mean squat to me outside of simply working on my character.
dang man, i actually had fun at apex, and then some dude with an okay peach says this. whatever. should have never even bothered to look here.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
It's ok. He still sucks.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
If the characters capabilities are there why deny them top tier?
If there are weaknesses then that would mean the characters capabilities that were previously thought to exist, simply cannot be realized.
Personally, I believe they will never be top tier.
Simply because(as you entiond) of the fact that many characters have the ability to space the characters or separate them making the ability to 0-death the character less useful.
In spite of their incredible abilities gained from de-synching, again, the problem is that their weakness is just too easily exploited.
Certainly a 0-death i intimidating, but as we have seen, the ability to avoid those 0-deaths is avoidable for several characters, several of which can disable their abilities as well due to their ability to separate or space them.
Plus its beyond reasonable difficulty to set up the grab.
I doubt greatly they will be top tier.
Of course however, the tierlist is metagame influenced so hey, probably will end up as top tier.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
In what way?
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Maybe, if we post enough to get the next page...
Quickly and quietly everyone.
Quickly and quietly everyone.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Interesting logic Shadow.
Nanaki
Smash Lord
He'll be an excellent politician someday. Covers his bases well.
It seems like there's much less payoff for going IC's than going MK, Snake, Wario, or D3. You have to work very hard to really press your advantage in many matchups, and a mistake on your part can very easily be fatal starting at pretty low %. Yes, you have 0-deaths on everyone, but they're far from easy to set up (as has been said already a few times).
I think they're top of A tier material, maybe bottom of S if someone drops.
What are people's thoughts on Falco and Diddy? I can't really understand why they're above D3, as his tournament results have been so consistently excellent across Brawl's lifespan. I get the feeling Falco will probably end up in A tier, it's hard to tell since his tournament results have been pretty wildly inconsistent. Diddy zoomed up the charts, but I don't know if he has a ton of staying power now that he's been somewhat figured out.
Regardless, I see no reason that D3 shouldn't be #3 or #4 on the tier list.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
...
...
you cant talk mr PMS.
You know full well what I had meant.
Edit2: YOU ALL SUCK TOO!
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
heres me doing my part....
also, hard to setup grabs?
lol
also, hard to setup grabs?
lol
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Yea, well we love him anyway.He'll be an excellent politician someday. Covers his bases well.
*secretly plots to have Shadow killed for being a better politician*
I agree, after they found ways to reliably get grabs against a lot of characters (instead of just forcing them to play outside their grab range), I figured them for A tier. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing asset, but honestly, other characters simply do better and they seem to have too many bad match-ups.
It's ok Shadow, we love you anyway.
mr PMS huh? lol
ICs? Yea.
They have fail grab range, so honestly, if the player's any good, it's really difficult to get that grab in because everyone knows what happens when the ICs grab successfully.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
ruin`
Smash Journeyman
The IC vs any character matchup doesn't revolve entirely on grabs. Use of ice blocks, blizzard and desynch'd attacks put a ton of pressure on a characters shield. In addition, I'm inclined to believe that IC vs MK is in IC favor on the map Final Destination only.
Despite PokemonStadium2 being the same width as FD, the map makes the matchup much easier for MK. Reason being, the two platforms make for safe recovery zones while using tornado. Always leaves MK with a safe getaway option.
Pictochat is also similar to FD, but the hazards work against IC. They often force nana to get desynch'd and caught on a platform or hurt by a hazard. Paired with MK's excellent control of the air, nana can effectively be 0-deathed and makes the matchup almost impossible.
An interesting strategy to use with many characters is to eliminate nana from the IC first stock and simply fight the solo climber. Without KOing the solo climber, get a % lead and run from the solo climber forcing the player to KO himself in order to use nana in effectively eliminating your stock. Wario, rob, d3, etc do a great job of this.
Despite PokemonStadium2 being the same width as FD, the map makes the matchup much easier for MK. Reason being, the two platforms make for safe recovery zones while using tornado. Always leaves MK with a safe getaway option.
Pictochat is also similar to FD, but the hazards work against IC. They often force nana to get desynch'd and caught on a platform or hurt by a hazard. Paired with MK's excellent control of the air, nana can effectively be 0-deathed and makes the matchup almost impossible.
An interesting strategy to use with many characters is to eliminate nana from the IC first stock and simply fight the solo climber. Without KOing the solo climber, get a % lead and run from the solo climber forcing the player to KO himself in order to use nana in effectively eliminating your stock. Wario, rob, d3, etc do a great job of this.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Boku
10char
There's like 2 things keeping ICs out of Top Tier... stages and Snake.
Wario vs ICs is pretty even, maybe slight advantage Wario. He doesn't need to approach until he has wafts, which set the ICs up for **** while avoiding getting grab owned. He can gimp them at 30 with little trouble if you know what you're doing.
Wario vs ICs is pretty even, maybe slight advantage Wario. He doesn't need to approach until he has wafts, which set the ICs up for **** while avoiding getting grab owned. He can gimp them at 30 with little trouble if you know what you're doing.
Browny
Smash Hater
Lucario didnt move 
---
ok i was quoting spades 3.1 list didnt realise how old it was haha
---
ok i was quoting spades 3.1 list didnt realise how old it was haha
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
2 days?
It was a joke nevertheless. XP
It was a joke nevertheless. XP
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
I'd have thought it would've been in Wario's advantage, considering that he's one of the hardest in the game to grab, but perhaps there's something I'm missing.
Moving away from the Ice Climbers, where does everyone believe that ROB should be? He seems to have a lot of potential, but he gets comboed a lot by certain characters (mostly involving footstools), but really I haven't seen any good ROBs in action, so I have no idea whether or not his current position is accurate.
Popertop
Smash Champion
rob is simply too **** big to really be a threat to the top tiers.
He can **** up to a certian point, but after that I feel he is too limited to really do well.
about where he is right now is good, he might drop though.
He can **** up to a certian point, but after that I feel he is too limited to really do well.
about where he is right now is good, he might drop though.
and espy kinda but especially on yoshis island >_>
JayBee
Smash Champion
espy is one of the most aggressive. actually the best word is smartest. he can play both styles.
dunno about boku tho, don't really watch him.
dunno about boku tho, don't really watch him.
Desynched brickwalls are what makes it hard for Wario, not the grabs.
Zenthewanderer
Smash Apprentice
I believe characters like ROB, Pit, Wolf, and Toon Link are suffering from the same problem. Correct me if I'm wrong-
In the early days of Brawl, all four were recognized as great characters by public eyes- A material, we'll say. For some time they were quite popular and enjoyed the spotlight and attention. As time went by and this initial effect ran off, two things happened.
1. People discovered ways around their tricks and talents.
2. Few major breakthroughs were made in their games.
Today, if you look around, you see a good deal of animosity toward them (espically ROB) because of their early fame and lack of success in delivering on them. Having experiance with all four, I know the feeling too well. Once you get so far with them, you just hit a wall that can't seem to be gotten past. What next? What more can I do to improve? For me, this has very much been the case with Pit & Toon Link. Wolf who was once in my top 3, has lost his spot to Olimar & Lucario. Only in the last month or two have I started to pick up the pace with my ROB.
But I digress... I've heard that a lot of people have gotten over this with Pit- I'm still having trouble doing so, but not a big deal. And, before I finish, I will make four predictions. Just for the heck of it, honestly.
Wolf will probably be stuck under Fox from now on- no longer having the honor of being the 2nd highest space animal. He reminds me of Roy.... A very cool character that fans desperately wanted to see near the top of the tier list, but knew would never be. -Moment of silence for Roy-
I believe ROB will stay in A tier, never falling or rising enough to get out. People will continue to plead against this but its unlikely he'll fall far. Though if ZSS makes the 'Diddy Jump' *Sudden emergence as a tourney regular* ROB could be in danger. Assuming they know the match-up anyway.
Toon Link, I predict..... Well, I'd love to say he'll get into A tier, but I know its pretty unlikely considering how things look now. That spot most likely is reserved for ZZS or Lucario.
As for Pit.... You know, I don't have enough to give a decent prediction. My instincts tell me he's going to stay where he is, but part of me suspects he may fall soon. But, hey, if Kid Icarus Wii turns out to be true, he might get a sudden boost in rep. Anyone else want to shine some light on him?
Could be totally wrong, but its still fun to try to look into the future.
In the early days of Brawl, all four were recognized as great characters by public eyes- A material, we'll say. For some time they were quite popular and enjoyed the spotlight and attention. As time went by and this initial effect ran off, two things happened.
1. People discovered ways around their tricks and talents.
2. Few major breakthroughs were made in their games.
Today, if you look around, you see a good deal of animosity toward them (espically ROB) because of their early fame and lack of success in delivering on them. Having experiance with all four, I know the feeling too well. Once you get so far with them, you just hit a wall that can't seem to be gotten past. What next? What more can I do to improve? For me, this has very much been the case with Pit & Toon Link. Wolf who was once in my top 3, has lost his spot to Olimar & Lucario. Only in the last month or two have I started to pick up the pace with my ROB.
But I digress... I've heard that a lot of people have gotten over this with Pit- I'm still having trouble doing so, but not a big deal. And, before I finish, I will make four predictions. Just for the heck of it, honestly.
Wolf will probably be stuck under Fox from now on- no longer having the honor of being the 2nd highest space animal. He reminds me of Roy.... A very cool character that fans desperately wanted to see near the top of the tier list, but knew would never be. -Moment of silence for Roy-
I believe ROB will stay in A tier, never falling or rising enough to get out. People will continue to plead against this but its unlikely he'll fall far. Though if ZSS makes the 'Diddy Jump' *Sudden emergence as a tourney regular* ROB could be in danger. Assuming they know the match-up anyway.
Toon Link, I predict..... Well, I'd love to say he'll get into A tier, but I know its pretty unlikely considering how things look now. That spot most likely is reserved for ZZS or Lucario.
As for Pit.... You know, I don't have enough to give a decent prediction. My instincts tell me he's going to stay where he is, but part of me suspects he may fall soon. But, hey, if Kid Icarus Wii turns out to be true, he might get a sudden boost in rep. Anyone else want to shine some light on him?
Could be totally wrong, but its still fun to try to look into the future.
*Facepalm*
I completely forgot about Boku. Does his playstyle even work offline? It's way easier to punish spring -> dair when you have the extra reaction time.
Actually he plays a bit differently offline than online.
- Status