The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[DMG]

If they can time it right. QD makes Ike move really fast, so it's hard to pin point where to punish it.

Actually he is right, Ike's QD is fairly easy to punish. If the moves is gonna end short of you, you can move backwards/fire a projectile and be safe. If he is gonna get close and hit you, then you can shield or even spotdodge at the right time and watch him miss and be open.

It's sometimes useful to close the gap against an opponent, but odds are it's not gonna be extremely reliable against most opponents once they learn when you tend to use it.

 

[EmblemPrincess]

Well, whatever, but I know I've seen QD used in ways where it was reliable. Besides, it isn't like I'm saying it's the best move ever.

 

[Suspect]

Well, whatever, but I know I've seen QD used in ways where it was reliable. Besides, it isn't like I'm saying it's the best move ever.

but still

you're open!

and it's a free shoryuken for me

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, whatever, but I know I've seen QD used in ways where it was reliable. Besides, it isn't like I'm saying it's the best move ever.

Then the Ikes' opponents sucked. HARSHLY. ANY time it's used on stage thats not a tech chase, it should have been punished.

 

[DMG]

Then the Ikes' opponents sucked. HARSHLY. ANY time it's used on stage thats not a tech chase, it should have been punished.

Well not EVERYTIME, but yes a good majority of the time the move will get punished either by the opponent firing a projectile at him/having some attack out that he moves into, or by forcing him to hit a shield or empty space on purpose just to get hit pretty hard by his opponent.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well not EVERYTIME, but yes a good majority of the time the move will get punished either by the opponent firing a projectile at him/having some attack out that he moves into, or by forcing him to hit a shield or empty space on purpose just to get hit pretty hard by his opponent.

right, I forgot about using QD while the opponent is in the Star KO animation. You should be safe then as well. >_>

There is not a single character that can't punish QD. Even Ganondorf has quick enough moves to do that.

 

[DMG]

right, I forgot about using QD while the opponent is in the Star KO animation. You should be safe then as well. >_>

There is not a single character that can't punish QD. Even Ganondorf has quick enough moves to do that.

Well you have to consider the stage and where the opponent is located. If they are on the other side of FD, and you barely tap side B to do QD, I don't think the opponent is gonna maul you for it. Although obviously you're not gonna accomplish much from using it that far away anyways.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Olimar is more likely a slight disadvantage.

How so?
I cannot see as to why Bowser would be capable of dealing with Olimar very effectively considering Olimar is not in danger of Bowser's OOS options which are one of his best strengths.

Bowser has no players. His learning curve is high and him being so mediocre makes him an extremely unpopular choice, among many other reasons, like his horrible tournament results.

No johns.
Sonic has a rather high learning curve as well so I think it would be he is simply hated. Cause he is a turtle.
Who has sex with a princess every game.
Why else does he kidnap her?

Bowser still is worse than Sonic.

I conquer.

The tier list placements are not determined by simply comparing the matchups of the characters who are next to each other, otherwise the tierlist would be idiotically dumb.

Woah that is only half true.
In the case of Brawl's tierlist which is metagame affected, of course the matchups are not used as a method of dictating tierlists.

However as we saw in SF3, and GG, tierlists can be formed by matchup based and tend to be more accurate because they are not influenced so much by the metagame.

Besides this, Bowser has a chaingrab on Ike, and I'd say the matchup is at least even, if not in the advantage of Bowser.
Also LOL, Ike in B Tier. Hahahahahaha.

Ike has a CG on Bowser to 60% @_@

 

[Zodac]

why is bowser above people?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

why is bowser above people?

Simply because he's "better" than them.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I personally see SOME potential in Ike. SOME. His QD is Ok for approaches, if you use it liek Falco's SHFP so you slide a little when you hit the ground. The only problem with that is that Ike's heavness counters his Ok traction. If Ike were just a little less laggy, I think he could go up two spots, three max.

@Nestec: Sig my quote. Do it.

 

[Nestec]

No johns.
Sonic has a rather high learning curve as well so I think it would be he is simply hated. Cause he is a turtle.
Who has sex with a princess every game.

Nope, no he didn't. Not in Mario Tennis.

Woah that is only half true.
In the case of Brawl's tierlist which is metagame affected, of course the matchups are not used as a method of dictating tierlists.

However as we saw in SF3, and GG, tierlists can be formed by matchup based and tend to be more accurate because they are not influenced so much by the metagame.

No, no, Spadefox meant like... MK beats Snake, Snake beats Wario, Wario beats Falco, etc. Like in a rock-paper-scissors fashion.

@ T.R.D.S. : shonuff

 

[DMG]

Except Wario beats Snake, Falco, Diddy, basically anyone not named Marth or MK (Dedede is debatable).

But yes, it's like Rock/Paper/Scissors/Dynomite/Tornado/Earthquake/Thunder/Tsunami/etc.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Obviously that Ganon is **** garbage. So yes, it's good for lulz. But it does nothing for the argument.
And since you said "For the Ganon argument I'd like to post" it, this rebuttal is mandatory.

Ganon does have major problems. But I think it will work out that Link, Falcon, and Ness are worse than him. Maybe Jiggs.

Ganon above Falcon? It's debatable. Ganon above Link and Ness? No. Just no. It's awkward to see you even mention Ness.

 

[Nestec]

@ dr. mario guy

Wait, no, Spadefox was saying that it would be stupid if the tier list worked that way.

 

[DMG]

Ideally a tier list should be based on matchups alone, not something as subjective/sway able as popularity, but tournament results/representation in the end speak the loudest.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Adumbrodeus, where are you getting those frames from? Most of it is wrong. Ganon's UAir and BAir are both 1 frame slower than Falcons. Besides, those are only the start frames, if you consider their ending frames (or completion points) Ganon "takes the cake" for most laggy moves.

Ganon also has more jump lag frames than Falcon (7, I believe). Falcon's grounded aerials out of shield are not only faster, but also less laggier. Basically, they're alot safer on shield.

Smashes? Ganon's down smash takes the cake easily. Falcon's down and f-smash are only 2 and 3 frames slower then Ganon's up amd f-smash, and Falcon's up-smash takes the cake for overall slowest.

DSmash is also another one of Ganon's "lol" moves. It's useless. You'll never see a (pro) Ganon actually using that moves in competitive play.

Airs? Uairs tie for fastest overall, with nairs a close second, then bairs. Falcon's fair is 2 frames faster then Ganon's, but keep in mind, you can't buffer it if you're punishing (unless you really wanna punish with a flubbed knee), so for sweet-spotted knee vs. Ganon's fair, Ganon wins against grouned opponents. Dairs are even.

I explained this already. Grounded aerials are faster when done with Falcon. Aerials in the air are about the same frames (Ganon's UAir and BAir are 1 frame slower).

Ganon's and Falcon's Uair are both pretty great.

Falcon's Utilt and Usmash have lasting hitboxes, which is where I feel they are both superior to Ganon's Usmash. Utilt also moves Falcon forward a bit, while Falcon can get a nice slide out of his Usmash.

B's? Ganon's foreward b is much faster at 16 vs. 21 (and much more useful also). Falcon's down B is a frame faster. Neutral b is lol anyway. Up-b is a significant advantage for Falcon, who's 14 vs. 20. And down-b is 1 frame advantage for Falcon.

It's also much laggier, in the air and on the ground, I've been punished by a Ike's Fsmash cause of it's horrible lag. Falcon's Forward B comes out at frame 20 by the way. Falcon's Down-b is faster by 2 frames, and ends 2 frames earlier than Ganon's.

So, Falcon BARELY edges out Ganondorf, and when it comes to punishing, and Ganondorf has a number of edges.

Read above. Falcon's very fast and flexible in the air. His jumps are nice, his aerials are relatively quick/don't have severe landing lag.

The Knee of Justice is probably one of the easiest sweetspoters to land in Brawl once you feel it out (though it isn't a typical approach). It's significantly harder to reliably hit with Zelda's, Mario/Dk's Fair, several Dairs, etc. The Knee also has a persistent hitbox that "flubs", which makes for a potential gimping tool and can trip a grounded opponent into an easy combo. The attack itself, isn't as easy to land.

You should acknowledge that Falcon's Dsmash doesn't hit an opponent into the second kick. One hit sends an opponent away, where as Ganon's Clumsy Kicks sometimes only hits once with the low knockback hit, putting Ganon in a bad place, easily airdodgable. I'd say Falcon's Dsmash is far more useful than Ganon's.

Falcon isn't nearly as tall as Ganon, his Bair has less trouble hitting people. They have the same power, but Falcon's is one frame faster and has less ending lag.

Falcon has significantly better recovery than Ganon. Falcon's upB has a tremendous amount of mobility and can change directions on the fly. He seems to slide around a ledge easily with it, making it easy to warp onto the stage if he's being ledgehogged. Plus, his jump's and his aerial speed (5th best) are nicer too. With an air jump, I'd wager Falcon's vertical recovery rivals Ganon's, but I have no hard data.

They both have their own troubles, in different ways of course, but Ganon trouble are what matter more in this game. Basically, I'd sum it up to this.

Falcon has a few approach options, decent recovery and even gets use out of his Neutral B, Utilt, Up-b, and Dsmash but ultimately lacks priority and has very low pressure on opponents. Ganon has great damage and KO power, some ridiculous punishing moves, but his crippled mobility, weak recovery and absent pressure/approach game hold him back. Both characters are punished easily, through Ganon's lag and Falcon's low priority.

They both deserve their very own tier at the exact bottom. Falcon being just a bit better than Ganon, imo.

 

[Nestec]

Uh-oh, more Falcon v Ganon discussion... >_<

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nope, no he didn't. Not in Mario Tennis.

He did in the back.

No, no, Spadefox meant like... MK beats Snake, Snake beats Wario, Wario beats Falco, etc. Like in a rock-paper-scissors fashion.

OHHHH okay

 

[Nestec]

He did in the back.

****, no wonder Peach sucked so bad.

 

[ShadowLink84]

****, no wonder Peach sucked so bad.

Yep, she was too in pain afterwards to do much.

 

[Shadow13]

Dream? lol. Ike really does have a Quick Draw Cancel, my friend. If he can manage to stop right in front of his opponent without a missed attempt to strike, he can immediately follow up with a neutral A combo. I've lost count of how many times I've used this technique lol.

Oh, I've QDC'd into a uair before, but that's tougher to pull off. I'm going to test other moves with QDC as well.

Post a link to a vid on youtube with the Quick Draw cancel then, if you do it a lot, should be no problem.
I'd really like to see it.

 

[Nestec]

Yep, she was too in pain afterwards to do much.

You gotta give her props for letting him...take her body. o_O

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's not a "technique", it's just not hitting anyone with Quick Draw. Nothing's being cancelled.

 

[Gea]

That's not a "technique", it's just not hitting anyone with Quick Draw. Nothing's being cancelled.

ZOMG someone who realizes that basic gameplay mechanics don't need to be named and labelled as advanced techniques.

 

[Nestec]

I'm still gonna keep using the term SHAD.

 

[Shadow13]

That's not a "technique", it's just not hitting anyone with Quick Draw. Nothing's being cancelled.

I know, my point is for her to show "Ike's QDC" or shut up about it.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Somebody mentioned something about Ness being lower then Ganondorf. That's laughable.
Ness is too low anyways.

 

[adumbrodeus]

People still claim in the Asian food tier list that Sushi and Chinese are better than Indian, but I do think Indian has the potential to become at least Top Tier, and overtake both Sushi and Chinese.

Filipino food is top tier. Lechun rocks so does Lumpia. And assorted other things, some of them you gotta be open-minded about though (balut).

Adumbrodeus, where are you getting those frames from? Most of it is wrong. Ganon's UAir and BAir are both 1 frame slower than Falcons. Besides, those are only the start frames, if you consider their ending frames (or completion points) Ganon "takes the cake" for most laggy moves.

Ganon also has more jump lag frames than Falcon (7, I believe). Falcon's grounded aerials out of shield are not only faster, but also less laggier. Basically, they're alot safer on shield.

DSmash is also another one of Ganon's "lol" moves. It's useless. You'll never see a (pro) Ganon actually using that moves in competitive play.

I explained this already. Grounded aerials are faster when done with Falcon. Aerials in the air are about the same frames (Ganon's UAir and BAir are 1 frame slower).

Ganon's and Falcon's Uair are both pretty great.

Falcon's Utilt and Usmash have lasting hitboxes, which is where I feel they are both superior to Ganon's Usmash. Utilt also moves Falcon forward a bit, while Falcon can get a nice slide out of his Usmash.

It's also much laggier, in the air and on the ground, I've been punished by a Ike's Fsmash cause of it's horrible lag. Falcon's Forward B comes out at frame 20 by the way. Falcon's Down-b is faster by 2 frames, and ends 2 frames earlier than Ganon's.

Read above. Falcon's very fast and flexible in the air. His jumps are nice, his aerials are relatively quick/don't have severe landing lag.

The Knee of Justice is probably one of the easiest sweetspoters to land in Brawl once you feel it out (though it isn't a typical approach). It's significantly harder to reliably hit with Zelda's, Mario/Dk's Fair, several Dairs, etc. The Knee also has a persistent hitbox that "flubs", which makes for a potential gimping tool and can trip a grounded opponent into an easy combo. The attack itself, isn't as easy to land.

You should acknowledge that Falcon's Dsmash doesn't hit an opponent into the second kick. One hit sends an opponent away, where as Ganon's Clumsy Kicks sometimes only hits once with the low knockback hit, putting Ganon in a bad place, easily airdodgable. I'd say Falcon's Dsmash is far more useful than Ganon's.

Falcon isn't nearly as tall as Ganon, his Bair has less trouble hitting people. They have the same power, but Falcon's is one frame faster and has less ending lag.

Falcon has significantly better recovery than Ganon. Falcon's upB has a tremendous amount of mobility and can change directions on the fly. He seems to slide around a ledge easily with it, making it easy to warp onto the stage if he's being ledgehogged. Plus, his jump's and his aerial speed (5th best) are nicer too. With an air jump, I'd wager Falcon's vertical recovery rivals Ganon's, but I have no hard data.

They both have their own troubles, in different ways of course, but Ganon trouble are what matter more in this game. Basically, I'd sum it up to this.

Falcon has a few approach options, decent recovery and even gets use out of his Neutral B, Utilt, Up-b, and Dsmash but ultimately lacks priority and has very low pressure on opponents. Ganon has great damage and KO power, some ridiculous punishing moves, but his crippled mobility, weak recovery and absent pressure/approach game hold him back. Both characters are punished easily, through Ganon's lag and Falcon's low priority.

They both deserve their very own tier at the exact bottom. Falcon being just a bit better than Ganon, imo.

Honestly, was planning on discussing it more in the morning, but the thread had moved so far along that I didn't wanna resurrect the topic.

**** fast moving tierlist thread.


Juding by the collective groans, wanna take this to pms?

 

[Nestec]

wanna take this to pms?

....Don't laugh....hold it in...be mature....

Filipino food is top tier. Lechun rocks so does Lumpia. And assorted other things, some of them you gotta be open-minded about though (balut).

Wtf are lechun and lumpia?? O.O
Sounds disgusting. lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

wanna take this to pms?

LMFAO. LOOK WHAT YOU SAID. *SLAPS TABLE REPEATEDLY* I APPROVE!

Ahh that was good

 

[Melomaniacal]

HEY EVERYONE, ADUMBRODEUS ASKED IF SOMEONE WANTED TO TAKE IT TO THE PMS!

LIKE PRE-MENSTRUAL SYNDROME!

Everyone point and laugh!

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Filipino food is top tier. Lechun rocks so does Lumpia. And assorted other things, some of them you gotta be open-minded about though (balut).

YESZ

Lumpia is God Tier, man. Balut has the disadvantage of mind****ing with first-timers, though, but it really depends on the level of mindgames implemented. At a basic level, unusable. At top level play, pretty good.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wtf are lechun and lumpia?? O.O
Sounds disgusting. lol

Lechun is pig, generally refers to a special preparation style that involves roasting and spicing, but here, let me show you.


Lumpia is basically is a crepe with some kind of filling, can be either fried or fresh and generally uses some sort of meat and veritable. It's similar to a spring roll in a lot of ways.

And it's awesome.

YESZ

Lumpia is God Tier, man. Balut has the disadvantage of mind****ing with first-timers, though, but it really depends on the level of mindgames implemented. At a basic level, unusable. At top level play, pretty good.

Pretty much, Lumpia is amazing, Balut is good (but nowhere near as amazing), but the "ick" reaction puts a lot of people off to it, like eating squid, though generally worse.

Then again, the looks that first-timers get when they see it, priceless!

....Don't laugh....hold it in...be mature....

LMFAO. LOOK WHAT YOU SAID. *SLAPS TABLE REPEATEDLY* I APPROVE!

Ahh that was good

HEY EVERYONE, ADUMBRODEUS ASKED IF SOMEONE WANTED TO TAKE IT TO THE PMS!

LIKE PRE-MENSTRUAL SYNDROME!

Everyone point and laugh!

So mature guys, lol.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Except Wario beats Snake, Falco, Diddy, basically anyone not named Marth or MK (Dedede is debatable).

But yes, it's like Rock/Paper/Scissors/Dynomite/Tornado/Earthquake/Thunder/Tsunami/etc.

Yeah, I have to say I agree. To stretch it further, let's imagine that there are only five characters in the game: MK, Snake, Marth, Olimar and Peach. And now let's imagine that each one represents a specfic item: MK, Snake and Marth represent oil, Olimar represents fire and Peach represents water. Olimar's fire gets beaten by Peach's water because of its consistencies, but Olimar's fire helps him to damage the top tiers' oil, while Peach's water will simply refine it. Therefore, Olimar > Peach, even though Peach beats him in an individual matchup.

So yeah, basically it's an extremely extensive game of rock-paper-scissors, except that nothing beats MK outright,

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda is a remote possibility for being under Ike. Her worst match-up is worse then Ike's worse match-up (Zelda is 2-8 VS MK, Ike is 3-7 VS 3 people), and she also has one more match-up that is 3-7 or worse. IIRC, she also has one or two less advantages.

The problem is, her results are tied into Sheik's results, which makes it hard to judge who is truly used more.

I knew that someone was gonna run to those charts. The thing about the Zelda board charts is that they were made to be so horrid so people wouldn't get the idea that "omg, Zelda is so good against MK!" In practice, MK is probably 40:60 to 30:70 for Zelda, depending on how the MK is playing and if the Zelda knows that she is gonna have to play by shield. Since no really good Zelda has played the top MKs (as far as I know, though maybe Ryoko's done somethig, iunno), we just throw a really bad ratio there so we can get the idea to everyone that it's bad.

As far as I'm concerned about Ike, though, MK beats both of them just about equally, Ike *may* do better against Snake (but that's only because I believe it's a horrid fight for Zelda, so bad that I'm not sure if Ike even does that bad), Ike likely does better against G&W than Zelda, and he may do better against some other characters that don't really factor in too heavily, like Peach. Zelda, on the other hand, holds solid advantages at best or slight advantages at worst against DDD, ICs, and Rob (imo).

They're probably equally bad against Zero Suit, Marth, Wario (maybe), Olimar, and then some of the more obscure characters again. Ike likely does worse against Falco, Pikachu, and Diddy, but again, I don't even know his match-ups off the back of my hand or anything. Really, the end result is that with the exception of the very, very few characters in this game where they have drastically different fights for against characters that matter (DDD), I don't think their match-ups really mean **** in comparison.

Of course, Zelda still has Down B like you said, so who really gives a **** if Ike can barely edge her out when the combined force trounces him anyway? Nevertheless, the main advantage he has over Zelda, and I mean the main one, is his aerial priority, while the main advantage Zelda has over him is attack speed (though Ike's Jab actually does come out one frame faster than Zelda's fastest move, so yay for Ike). We could talk about his weight and his jab -> whatever stuff, and we could talk about dtilt -> lightning kick setups and Dsmash, but it doesn't really matter much in the end.

If you want to go off of top tier match-ups, however, the only one of them that actually WINS a top tier match-up is Zelda vs. DDD, no matter what our ****ing chart says, because she actually forces him to approach, meaning all the whiners about her approach have nothing to whine about if they lose because they approached. Ike, as far as I know, doesn't win any of his top tier match-ups. All match-ups 3-7 and worse are basically not getting won by the 3 contender. Tournament results could only favor Ike if he wins far more than Zelda and Sheik (though I believe that, not counting Sheiks attempting to use Zelda for an Usmash because they missed their ftilt -> usmash, Zelda is pretty much at the very bottom for popularity). Without Sheik, I'd say they'd have virtually the same results.

I still think Zelda is barely > Ike.

 

[Red Arremer]

Except Wario beats Snake, Falco, Diddy, basically anyone not named Marth or MK (Dedede is debatable).

But yes, it's like Rock/Paper/Scissors/Dynomite/Tornado/Earthquake/Thunder/Tsunami/etc.

You got my statement wrong.

Of course matchups are important. What I meant is that the matchups with the character next to them matters so much that if they beat the character above them, they should go above him, is a stupid logic. Which basically means that two matchups should determine what the tier list position is - the matchup with the character above and below.

Let's take for instance Snake. He loses to Meta Knight (despite I personally don't think that's true, but let's take it for the sake of the example), who is above him, so that's okay. But he also loses to Wario who's below him. Going by that logic, Wario should go above Snake and Snake should be compared with his matchup to Falco to see if he should stay on third or become fourth.
This is what I mean. It's dumb to judge a character by the single matchups of above/below them.

 

[Brinzy]

I can't believe there's still discussion about "This guy beats that guy so he should be above that guy" logic. It's utterly stupid logic. Nobody should be getting confused about the explanation as to why it's stupid logic.

Also, EmblemPrincess, go win some tournaments.

 

[mountain_tiger]

SoR summed it up pretty well, I'd say. And I'm glad I'm not the only one that still believes that Zelda soft counters DDD.

 

[Popertop]

I still don't know why more people don't play her