EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
SHE. Notice the "Princess" in my name? I'm a girl.
Second, I've seen videos of pro Ike players beating much higher up characters. I believe he can go higher and I won't stop believing until he IS higher.
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
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Second, I've seen videos of pro Ike players beating much higher up characters. I believe he can go higher and I won't stop believing until he IS higher.
Frown
poekmon
kingcobra9
Smash Ace
But he assumed it by the results
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Who were the people these Ikes were beating? If they were randoms, it doesn't matter.
Unfortunately, you're going to have to keep "believing." Ike will probably not ever go up more than two spaces.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
No, they were human players. I don't know if they were randoms or not, but they were different human players.
And I will keep believing because I think Ike can go higher. Luigi too, but not much.
And I will keep believing because I think Ike can go higher. Luigi too, but not much.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Back then I was more uneducated and was basing this of the results of my smallish tournament.
Besides this, Fox does have potential to go higher. I'm saying this now with an educated opinion, not biased by smaller tournaments or personal experience only, but by my general knowledge that has greatly improved during this year, especially regarding lower tiered characters, like Fox or Ike.
Frown
poekmon
This is what I mean. You aren't a very ignorant person, at all. EmblemPrincess is also uneducated in tiers and should therefore not be called ignorant.
Let's discuss... Ice Climbers?
A future top tier character?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
If I take Ganondorf and give the 3-year-old son of my neighbour a controller and have him choose Meta Knight, I also beat another player using the best character in the game while using the worst.
Show me a video of an Ike player defeating some of the best players, and I might change my opinion.
Back then, though, Brawl was rather young, and I was talking about characters who have potential. Still do. I never was wrong to begin with, since this opinion hasn't changed but was backed up by solid knowledge.
Besides this, I never would've said "I saw videos of character A beating character B". Because that IS ignorant, no matter what you think of it.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
I'm not uneducated in tiers. I don't know everything about them, but I definitely know some.
Spadefox: Then I'll find some vids of pro Ike players.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I'm not asking about the Ike players, I'm asking about their opponents.
Show me an Ike defeating Mew2King, Fiction, Ally or other top players in the world. And only one doesn't suffice. Neither does Low Tier tournaments.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
You are a bad person and should be internet bullied.
On the topic of IC's, I believe they can easily make the top tier, they are so gheyee. Their CG's just are so lame. At least vs MK you have something to say in being able to win, with IC's it's just sittings there like a duck. Also, IC's smashes are 2 gudz.
IC's should indeed, be higher.
Don't worry, I knew you were a girl all along.
In my opinion, Ike really doesn't have much room to improve/move up on the tier list. I've seen some really good Ike players, in person, do very well against mains of other characters, however as a character he is out shined by many.
Now it's just my opinion, you're entitled to think he has the potential to go higher than a lot of people expect, but a lot of really good players share the same view as me, including a few of those really good Ike players out there.
As for Luigi, I think he has room to fall a bit. His game plan is focused entirely on getting inside an opponents range and beating them up close. He's actually not that great at approaching though. Again though, that's just my opinion on his potential for the future.
IC's... either same spot or down a bit. I'd like them more if they were not so vulnerable on CP stages.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
Hmm...I see. It isn't like I think Ike can reach S tier though. Heck no, he simply can't match up to characters such as Meta Knight, etc.
For my first example of a sign Ike has potential, look at how good this expert Ike player does against an expert Snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXiH4A6M5BY
He didn't win that first match, but still, it was really close.
For my first example of a sign Ike has potential, look at how good this expert Ike player does against an expert Snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXiH4A6M5BY
He didn't win that first match, but still, it was really close.
Frown
poekmon
... June 4th, 2008?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Uhm... EmblemPrincess... not to burst your bubble, but... WiFi is generally not really accountable. I didn't even watch this video.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
Normally, you're right, it wouldn't be. But it didn't look like those matches lagged, so.
Frown: Yes. What's wrong with that date?
Frown: Yes. What's wrong with that date?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
The day just started it is already made.
Eh... Wifi/Online is kinda hard to use as a solid example for an offline metagame. The reason being that even in nearly lagless environments, there's enough of a delay that it causes significant enough change to game play where it's just not comparable to offline game play. Also, for online play, you can have HUGE input lag without there being a noticeable lagging/slowdown of the game (so it might take you over half a second for Ike's jab to come out, even though the game doesn't appear to slow down any).
Many characters become better or worse over online play. Ike is generally considered better online because the restrictions on reaction timing are lower, allowing him to punish/hit people in circumstances where they would likely not get hit or be able to more reliable punish Ike for attacking. Characters like Wario are drastically reduced in how effective they can be used online. He's such a frame intense, reactive character (at least for me anyways), that reaction restrictions online hamper a player's ability to crucially react with Wario to what the opponent does, hence he can't do things like weave in and out of their grasp very well.
If you have more videos, you can go ahead and post them and we will look over them, but try to find ones that are not over online, as they may suggest a slightly distorted match for either side.
Also, date of a video has a HUGE impact when considering how closely it resembles the current metagame. Over the span of even 3 months, you would be surprised how much gameplay/strategies for characters can shift due to new ideas/better options being found for situations. Most videos from 2008, even between pro's, are not accurate nowadays in understanding the current metagame.
Frown
poekmon
Everyone SUCKED at Brawl back then. If you want to prove the potential of a character, show videos made in 2009. Preferably after May 2009.
Shadow13
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 27, 2009
- Messages
- 349
DDD isn't exactly rare either.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
You saw everyone play back then? Wow. Okay then.
I'll keep looking for videos that meet your requirements later. I really don't feel like looking anymore.
I'll keep looking for videos that meet your requirements later. I really don't feel like looking anymore.
I think I explained it better in my post.
Online videos, even if they are current date wise, are not necessarily accurate indicators of how a particular matchup would be like offline. It's because of this that generally we don't look that much at online videos for any character when determining what their abilities are for game play where the circumstances would be a bit different because of online factors.
As for date of videos, it's not so much about a player sucking/not being good back then, it has more to do with the fact that generally the more time has passed, the less accurate those matches are for determining what a matchup looks like currently. Some matchups, under the period of under 3 months, change so far from one character winning 60:40 to the other winning 60:40 based on a better understanding of the characters. That and even if a matchup doesn't change much difficulty wise, it's likely that certain strategies previously thought to be good are found out to be a bad idea/have better ideas available.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ike has the potential to be top of his current tier at MAX, unless we find a ground breaking glitch. Like the fabled Quick Draw Cancel that every Ike dreams about. He should be one higher currently, and sadly I can see Bowser possibly dropping below Ike due to lesser match-ups/tournament results (even though I feel Bowser > Ike). Zelda is a remote possibility for being under Ike. Her worst match-up is worse then Ike's worse match-up (Zelda is 2-8 VS MK, Ike is 3-7 VS 3 people), and she also has one more match-up that is 3-7 or worse. IIRC, she also has one or two less advantages.
The problem is, her results are tied into Sheik's results, which makes it hard to judge who is truly used more.
The problem is, her results are tied into Sheik's results, which makes it hard to judge who is truly used more.
F***in truth, right there. Amen.
Dude, me and my bud tried making a Tier List out of the Paper Mario party members. It was wicked sweet. XD
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On-topic,
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On-topic,
Bowser gets infinited by Dedede. This is a huge problem because Dedede is a common character.smashkng said:
ZSS needs to be lower.Spadefox said:
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
People still claim in the Asian food tier list that Sushi and Chinese are better than Indian, but I do think Indian has the potential to become at least Top Tier, and overtake both Sushi and Chinese.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I dunno, Curry is a **** good dish. I mean, Korean is good, but it has horrible matchups with everyone else but Indian. Besides this, Indian has no hard matchups, and the worst it gets after that is being even with Vietnamese. Of course, it doesn't also have exceptionally good matchups, but it's still evenish with most other Asian foods.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
Dream? lol. Ike really does have a Quick Draw Cancel, my friend. If he can manage to stop right in front of his opponent without a missed attempt to strike, he can immediately follow up with a neutral A combo. I've lost count of how many times I've used this technique lol.
Oh, I've QDC'd into a uair before, but that's tougher to pull off. I'm going to test other moves with QDC as well.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
That's not a Quick Drawl Cancel. That's spacing a terrible move just right and having an opponent dumb enough not to punish you for it.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
That's because Ike's follow up comes out so fast, he can't be punished. XD
Hmm, one pro did really good with Indian at Hell's Kitchen XII, its tourney results are gonna go up too. Dunno, I always thought Japanese was a hard-counter to it.
<3 your reasoningEmblemPrincess said:
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
*facepalm*
Any smart player would either take a few steps forwards so you are forced to swing and get punished for it, or take a few steps back and punish with a projectile/long range attack. QD is WORTHLESS. Trash move. Too weak, too laggy, to easy to see coming.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Nah, it never was. It just was that most Indian eaters don't know how to deal with Japanese, especially with Sushi. There's a reason Japanese is at the top of the tier list as of now, after all. Most Indians were shivering in fear, but now some of them learned the matchup, so they're gonna ****.
Since years I was saying that Indian is in fact the best Asian food, but noone believed me. I know my prophecy will come true.
EmblemPrincess
Smash Apprentice
If they can time it right. QD makes Ike move really fast, so it's hard to pin point where to punish it.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
And here he is, lecturing others.
BurningCrusader777
Smash Journeyman
Doesn't really matter. Just move in to close range and shield. It's something ridiculous like -35 (probably more :|) on block/missed activation, so you're going to get hit really hard for missing it.
Only thing that it could possibly be good for is a near guaranteed tech chase vs. a grounded opponent. Even as a recovery, it fails.
Only thing that it could possibly be good for is a near guaranteed tech chase vs. a grounded opponent. Even as a recovery, it fails.
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