The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[mountain_tiger]

ZSS has an infinite grab release on squirtle. Get wrecked. Never going above low tier.

Really? Why did no one inform me of this?

And ZSS has an infinite on ROB, but he's still high tier, ain't he?

Oh, and talking about Kirby, indeed he is pretty good. I used to play Kirby (I don't so much now, though), and IIRC all of his smashes kill pretty well, not just FSmash, so you don't have to worry too much about keep it fresh. And he has good tilts, good throws, a good recovery etc. But he's basically stayed the same in every tier list, so I doubt he'll move in the tier list much for the forseeable future.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

mountain_tiger: it's standing, so it's usually regulated.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why would it be? The Ice climber infinites are allowed so why wouldn't all the other infinites be allowed?
The argument of "IC's have a harder time infiniting" is meaningless because if it can be done, it will be done.

 

[Flayl]

I'ts never about having a hard time infiniting. It's about being able to do something about it (seperating IC's).

Or at least that's the only criteria that should be used.

 

[Nestec]

Squirtle apparently has a grab-release chaingrab on Ness and Lucas.

Get wrecked. They're never going above E Tier.

It really isn't all that hard for Ness to avoid getting grabbed. He fails on the ground anyway, and Fair is very good at protecting from any grabs.

Not saying he won't EVER get grabbed, but a grab-release fiasco from Squirtle does not hurt him all that much...

I think Ness getting out of E Tier is going to have to happen by him getting more tourney rep. SOOOO unpopular...

I agree with the points the above posters made on Kirby. His utilt is a really excellent tool..i cant understand why any one playing kirby wouldnt use it. Its really good.

Definitely.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It really isn't all that hard for Ness to avoid getting grabbed. He fails on the ground anyway, and Fair is very good at protecting from any grabs.

Not saying he won't EVER get grabbed, but a grab-release fiasco from Squirtle does not hurt him all that much...

Especially since Charizard already had one. <3

 

[Nestec]

T__T

I swear, some characters in this game get wrecked for the LAMEST reasons.

Grab-release? Wtf. Dedede v Bowser infinite? Wtf. And I'm sure there's more...

 

[mountain_tiger]

T__T

I swear, some characters in this game get wrecked for the LAMEST reasons.

Grab-release? Wtf. Dedede v Bowser infinite? Wtf. And I'm sure there's more...

There's tons more. Among other things:

- Sheik vs Fox/Ganondorf 20-death combo (FTilt lock > USmash)

- Marth vs Ness/Lucas (grab release infinite)

- ZSS vs Wario (grab release infinite)

- Pikachu vs Fox (0-80 chaingrab to USmash)

- D3's infinite (you already said Bowser, but it also affects DK, Samus, Mario and Luigi)

Actually, I think I'll stop listing them now, before I'm here all day.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ShadowLink84:

Aren't standing infinites regulated?

 

[ShadowLink84]

ShadowLink84:

Aren't standing infinites regulated?

No, they are out right banned.
Except for IC's, just because its hard. Stupid logic really but hey, thats smashers for you. <_<

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, they are out right banned.
Except for IC's, just because its hard. Stupid logic really but hey, thats smashers for you. <_<

My grab is 16 frames and squirtle is tiny. How is that not hard?

 

[Brinzy]

Is this some Atlantic North bull**** or an everywhere thing

 

[Flayl]

WTF, again? Did you all suddenly get alzheimers?

ShadowLink84:

Aren't standing infinites regulated?

No, they are out right banned.
Except for IC's, just because its hard. Stupid logic really but hey, thats smashers for you. <_<

Here's my post from 1 PAGE EARLIER

I'ts never about having a hard time infiniting. It's about being able to do something about it (seperating IC's).

Or at least that's the only criteria that should be used.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is this some Atlantic North bull**** or an everywhere thing

I believe it's the former.

 

[Red Arremer]

Fox gets flat out ***** by Pikachu and Sheik and has disadvantages against all top tier characters (except maybe Diddy). Wolf does better against Snake, MK, Wario, G&W, Marth, Kirby, ICs and Pikachu (many ppl also think vs Diddy).

Nope, Fox does better against Diddy, Meta Knight and Snake (though not by much as Wolf). Wario, Kirby, G&W and Marth I'm pretty sure that it's a close call for both of them, and the differences are not as big. Ice Climbers and Pikachu you are correct on, though.
I think Fox has a lot of potential, but so does Wolf. Both characters are actually pretty similar in this potential, as well. I think we'll see quite some surprises coming from both these Spacies in the future.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nope, Fox does better against Diddy, Meta Knight and Snake (though not by much as Wolf). Wario, Kirby, G&W and Marth I'm pretty sure that it's a close call for both of them, and the differences are not as big. Ice Climbers and Pikachu you are correct on, though.
I think Fox has a lot of potential, but so does Wolf. Both characters are actually pretty similar in this potential, as well. I think we'll see quite some surprises coming from both these Spacies in the future.

Wouldn't surprise me at all. Fox has a lot of really great qualities. Wolf less so, but still could be good.

 

[ShadowLink84]

WTF, again? Did you all suddenly get Alzheimer?
Here's my post from 1 PAGE EARLIER

You do know my post basically refers to it.
IC's having a harder time grabbing means everything, stages, ability to separate them and disable it.

All of it is no excuse.
Saying, its okay or IC's to infinite all 37 characters, because you can disable it by separating them, does NOT change the fact that it is an infinite, and results in death every time.

It doe snot matter if the IC's can be disabled, its still and infinite, its still a stock when you are grabbed.


Unless it cause over centralization, it should not be banned.
Frankly, DDD infiniting 5 characters is very, very far from over centralization.

Same with ZSS on Squirtle.
Or Marth on Ness
Or Charizard on the mother boys.

My grab is 16 frames and squirtle is tiny. How is that not hard?

Squirtle sucks though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Squirtle sucks though.

I know, I was just being a ****, lol.

Actually I'd really like standing infinites to be legal prior to certain percentages. I would love it if I grabbed Wario and could pummel, air release, then regrab him until 200%.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know, I was just being a ****, lol.

Actually I'd really like standing infinites to be legal prior to certain percentages. I would love it if I grabbed Wario and could pummel, grab, air release him until 200%.

you can do it to 300% according to SBR ruling.
I say 200% is better though, you can kill any character by then

 

[Steeler]

if ICs infinites were easier to perform, then you'd see more players picking them up. at least as secondaries. if it grew to have a negative impact on the metagame then i could see a ban. as it is now, the learning curve is pretty high, so they don't have as much of an impact in tournaments.

difficulty is important.

not so much in individual cases though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

you can do it to 300% according to SBR ruling.
I say 200% is better though, you can kill any character by then

Really? Oh man, you should not have told me that. Unless it's explicitly banned I am going to abuse the crap out of that if I ever get a grab on Wario (hard, but not impossible).

Where I live, it is usually explicitly banned, which is why I don't get to. I assumed it was banned everywhere.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle sucks though.

Somebody lied to you.

Squirtle vs. Marth, whatever you wish, 3/5?

 

[C.box]

Nope, Fox does better against Diddy, Meta Knight and Snake (though not by much as Wolf). Wario, Kirby, G&W and Marth I'm pretty sure that it's a close call for both of them, and the differences are not as big. Ice Climbers and Pikachu you are correct on, though.
I think Fox has a lot of potential, but so does Wolf. Both characters are actually pretty similar in this potential, as well. I think we'll see quite some surprises coming from both these Spacies in the future.

Wolf does better against mk then fox, wolf does better against kirby and marth as well.

Snake and diddy are both very close for both characters. Idk bout gaw or wario though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So one grab from an IC results in death?


as in, you kill nana, and its just sopo on the field (or even just across the stage) and he can still death you from a grab?

fox v wolf matchups. who has it better?

mk: fox
Snake: pretty much even
Wario: probably wolf
Falco: Fox
DDD: Fox
Marth: fox slightly
Diddy: even


fox has better matchups

 

[ShadowLink84]

if ICs infinites were easier to perform, then you'd see more players picking them up. at least as secondaries. if it grew to have a negative impact on the metagame then i could see a ban. as it is now, the learning curve is pretty high, so they don't have as much of an impact in tournaments.

difficulty is important.

not so much in individual cases though.

Difficulty to land.
Difficulty to perform is unimportant.

IC's certainly have a hard time landing it, but performing it isn't the issue.

This is the same for the other characters.
ZSS isnt going to have an easy time grabbing squirtle.
Yoshi doesn't have an easy time grabbing Wario.

THe only one that can claim ease of landing, is really DDD because the characters he infinites, are pretty much forced to come into grab range.

Even then though, it does not matter.

DDD's, ZSS,Marth, Charizard etc only infinite a handful of characters.

So what is the issue?
Its not going to make a major impact on tournaments.
So what is the reasoning?

If its the whole "unfair" issue, well then thats completely subjective.

Somebody lied to you.

Squirtle vs. Marth, whatever you wish, 3/5?

It was a joke.
one of voice doesn't carry too well.


@kid: Read my post. Perhaps you would stop your +1 issue if you did.

 

[DMG]

For Dedede's standing Infinite, that probably shouldn't be banned on any of the characters he can do it on. It's situational for those characters only.

For Standing Infinites like grab release infinites on Wario and other characters, most people don't realize that those are sometimes banned/regulated because of possible time issues (they do significantly less damage per second/minute than an IC Infinite, Dedede Infinite, or infinite CG basically). Therefore, the player using it can do so in such a way to stall out the timer much more effectively than Dedede/IC's could up to the 300% mark.

 

[ShadowLink84]

For Dedede's standing Infinite, that probably shouldn't be banned on any of the characters he can do it on. It's situational for those characters only.

For Standing Infinites like grab release infinites on Wario and other characters, most people don't realize that those are sometimes banned/regulated because of possible time issues (they do significantly less damage per second/minute than an IC Infinite, Dedede Infinite, or infinite CG basically). Therefore, the player using it can do so in such a way to stall out the timer much more effectively than Dedede/IC's could up to the 300% mark.

Then lower the percentage for all infinites. By 200% the character is definitely dead.
That would certainly solve the issue concerning time considering the amount of damage that results.

Just don't get grabbed. That's really all that can be done.

however, personally, I would ban them simply because in their own way, they throw off gameplay.

In this game, the punishment or errors for mispacing in comparison to the infinites is certainly lighter.

It is certainly damaging to gameplay if a character can 0-death you for an error, while other characters cannot. But that is my view on things.

Pity such an argument is flawed though @_@

 

[DMG]

Yeah, I mean I kinda don't like the 300% rule because you're always gonna have someone who will decide to CG til 290% and then kill, but I guess you would have that issue with whatever the % was decided at.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It should be a lower percent for pummel infinites because those take forever to deal any real damage.

150% for pummel infinites
200% for infinites like the ZSS/ROB infinite

 

[ShadowLink84]

I actually like that idea

 

[Steeler]

Somebody lied to you.

Squirtle vs. Marth, whatever you wish, 3/5?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

@shadowlink

my bad, we were looking at two different things.

 

[mountain_tiger]

It should be a lower percent for pummel infinites because those take forever to deal any real damage.

150% for pummel infinites
200% for infinites like the ZSS/ROB infinite

150% for pummel infinites sounds pretty good, but not all characters can kill reliably at that percent...

And as for the ZSS/ROB infinite, surely that takes forever too? Once you've staled it completely, it only does like 5-6% per hit. And with DDD's infinite, doesn't DThrow only do 3-4% per throw after a while?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

150% for pummel infinites sounds pretty good, but not all characters can kill reliably at that percent...

And as for the ZSS/ROB infinite, surely that takes forever too? Once you've staled it completely, it only does like 5-6% per hit. And with DDD's infinite, doesn't DThrow only do 3-4% per throw after a while?

Yes but pummel infinites only do 2-3% in most cases...

 

[philbobjoe]

150% for pummel infinites sounds pretty good, but not all characters can kill reliably at that percent...

And as for the ZSS/ROB infinite, surely that takes forever too? Once you've staled it completely, it only does like 5-6% per hit. And with DDD's infinite, doesn't DThrow only do 3-4% per throw after a while?

I'm pretty sure they actually can all kill reliably at that percent. Can you name someone who can't?

 

[Red Arremer]

So one grab from an IC results in death?


as in, you kill nana, and its just sopo on the field (or even just across the stage) and he can still death you from a grab?

fox v wolf matchups. who has it better?

mk: fox
Snake: pretty much even
Wario: probably wolf
Falco: Fox
DDD: Fox
Marth: fox slightly
Diddy: even


fox has better matchups

 

[Nestec]

Speaking of grab infinites...

Does anyone else here set their grabs to a different button input other than the default?

/totally irrelevant

 

[ShadowLink84]

spade i get no seal?
=(

 

[mountain_tiger]

Yes but pummel infinites only do 2-3% in most cases...

True, but pummel attacks are generally quite fast, so you can fit in four or so pummels in the time it takes for DDD to do a DThrow and regrab.

 

[Suspect]

Speaking of grab infinites...

Does anyone else here set their grabs to a different button input other than the default?

/totally irrelevant

mine is set to X

 

[ShadowLink84]

True, but pummel attacks are generally quite fast, so you can fit in four or so pummels in the time it takes for DDD to do a DThrow and regrab.

That is actually very wrong.
DDD can only do 1 pummel and then afterwards the opponent escapes.
his occurs up to 130 %