Mecakoto
Smash Journeyman
No, he shouldn't. It isn't like it matters, anyway.
Now, here is some popcorn. Take it and watch the discussion. It is interesting.
*hands popcorn*
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
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Now, here is some popcorn. Take it and watch the discussion. It is interesting.
*hands popcorn*
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
That's true. Either way, it means 'get grabbed and you're dead'. It's like comparing whether Fox vs Pikachu or Ganondorf vs Sheik is worse. At the end of the day, they're both almost certainly screwed.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
DK can space ddd with bairs, bowser doesnt have any move that keeps him as safe as dks bair does to keep him from getting grabbed
just sayin...
just sayin...
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
DDD has everything else to force Dk close.
I GOTS A HAMMER!
I GOTS A HAMMER!
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Zenthewanderer
Smash Apprentice
*Cough* Wolf should be higher than Fox *Cough*
Not that I want to revive the last page's debate, of course. ^^"
This topic interests me- who has the harder MU with Dedede, Bowser or DK? I always leaned toward DK, considering that Bowser at least has his fire breath and the Klaw. More than the Kong has going for him. Granted that doesn't make the match 'winnable', but it gives him the slight nudge over DK in comparision.
On an off note.... Someone said that Luigi was Diddy's worst match-up a few pages back. Wow. I'd never heard that before- assuming its true. Awesome for the man in green.
Not that I want to revive the last page's debate, of course. ^^"
This topic interests me- who has the harder MU with Dedede, Bowser or DK? I always leaned toward DK, considering that Bowser at least has his fire breath and the Klaw. More than the Kong has going for him. Granted that doesn't make the match 'winnable', but it gives him the slight nudge over DK in comparision.
On an off note.... Someone said that Luigi was Diddy's worst match-up a few pages back. Wow. I'd never heard that before- assuming its true. Awesome for the man in green.
If I'm not mistaken, Diddy and Luigi players are very split on this idea. I'm pretty sure it's just not fun for either of them.
AvariceX
Smash Champion
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- London, Ontario, Canada
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- AvariceX
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Down smash too actually (except over a ledge).
- Joined
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Gyro
10Gyro
10Gyro
C.box
Smash Journeyman
An extremely fast moveset that provides him with a lot of options and frame traps. Wolf's "tools" are pretty much limited to bair, shine, and, laser. That's why there are like NO Wolf mains over here........because Wolf is so god**** predictable. Main reason why he dropped(below Fox I might add which is what I was pulling for ever since last summer).
Fast attacks with terrible range.. yaaay? Wolf has bair, fair, uair, shine, blaster, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, jabs, ftilt and dtilt all are good tools just because he might be telegraphed doesn't mean his options aren't good (think gaw).
Fox kills earlier than Wolf. He is hella light which makes Fox one of those risk and reward types. He doesn't get gimped near as much as Wolf and actually has options when returning to the stage.
Not like wolf kills super late <_< He doesn't get gimped nearly as bad..??? REALLY ? Firefox is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier to gimp then firewolf and the same goes for fox illusion. The foxcopter helps but most fairs or bairs cut through it like butter. When wolf cancels his side b it sends him far and fast along with an ability to use his aerial mobility also.
They both get gimped badly, ALL spacies do.
Foxs' ground speed enables him to get inside of Marth.....actually that doesn't even matter because Fox never has to approach. IDA can punish most of Marth's moveset OoS.
You talk about Wolf's aerial movement but Fox is fast as f*** on the ground so that pretty much nullifies that.
Who cares about how fast you are when you have no decent approach? Your not sonic you don't have like 17 different approach options and why exactly does it matter that fox doesn't need to approach when wolf can camp also....? When marth actually gets in your face (which with a no hitstun laser it is pretty easy) Fox CAN'T compete with his zoning, wolf can.
Yea your right Wolf doesn't die at 120% against MK......he dies at 80% as soon as he's knocked offstage
Same can be said about fox and he dies ealier so who wins there?
Also
Wolf vs marth 50:50 / fox vs marth 60:40 marth
Wolf vs mk 65:35-60:40 mk/ fox vs mk 70:30 mk
snake, well they both do pretty good against snake.
Wolf does alot better against icies since he actually has zoning tools and great aerial movement. He also has a better shot at fighting pikachu and sheik
Fox does better against d3.
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
It's sorta fun for me
. I have no problem with the matchup as Luigi.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Didn't know they could survive that late.
Regardless, bump up for stages with tall ceilings, bump it up in general for the heavy-weights.
Honestly, if we wanna get really complicated, we could set the exact kill amount for every stage with perfect DI on every character and make it dependent on the match-up, but that really does complicate things too much.
Flat 170?
philbobjoe
Smash Journeyman
I'm pretty sure Bowser's Up-B also helps prevent grabs from DeDeDe a lot.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
I don't have a problem with Ganondorf being the worst character in the game. But I'm just curious, why IS he so bad? I want to know what makes him so bad? He has like the worst match-ups in the game. 100:0 against Ice Climbers? 95:05 Shiek? 90:10 Olimar, Falco? 65:35 against the SECOND worst in the game? 85:15 Yoshi? 80:20 Samus? And then there comes the incredible amounts of 70:30s, 75:25s, 60:40s. He only has 1 neutral match-up?
I feel sorry for the people who use him.
I guess he's just TOO slow (in brawl).
I feel sorry for the people who use him.I guess he's just TOO slow (in brawl).
JayBee
Smash Champion
i dont.
Dear Ganon boards:
STOP PLAYING GANON!
Love,
Kojin
Dear Ganon boards:
STOP PLAYING GANON!
Love,
Kojin
I saw that edit.I don't have a problem with Ganondorf being the worst character in the game. But I'm just curious, why IS he so bad? I want to know what makes him so bad? He has like the worst match-ups in the game. 100:0 against Ice Climbers? 95:05 Shiek? 90:10 Olimar, Falco? 65:35 against the SECOND worst in the game? 85:15 Yoshi? 80:20 Samus? And then there comes the incredible amounts of 70:30s, 75:25s, 60:40s. He only has 1 neutral match-up?
I guess he's just TOO slow (in brawl).
80:10 would be unwinnable.
kackamee
Smash Master
80:10 means the match wouldn't finish...ever.
The matchup never existed in the first place.
Ganondorf is terrible for a number of reasons. Play as him for a day and you'll figure out why.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I repeat:
THE CHARACTERS IN C TIER AND BELOW ARE EASILY INTERCHANGEABLE WITH THE CHARACTERS IN THE SAME TIER.
That is simply because the characters in these tiers have not been paid as much (voting) attention as the characters in the upper tiers.
By all means, if you want to rub your d*** on it, then please, put Wolf above Fox, but don't moan in here because of exact positions. Wolf and Fox are in the same tier that's all that matters at this point.
This is not the final tier list and we're going to need a few years of play until we will be able to make exact judgments on every character in the game.
Seriously, learn to read and understand. ~_~
The_Bear735
Smash Journeyman
I still don't get how Kirby is above Lucario. (SCN)
AvariceX
Smash Champion
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Because Kirby's an amazing character, has no really bad matchups outside of ICs and maybe ROB and unlike Lucario doesn't get chaingrabbed by Dedede. He goes close to even with every top tier. I'm actually of the mind the Kirby should be even higher than he is; either right above, or right below pika.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Doesn't Kirby have pretty bad matchups with Snake and G&W too?
Bad matchups with Wario, G&W, Marth, MK, possibly Snake and Pika. He does alright vs Dedede, Olimar, IC's, ZSS, etc.
IC's chaingrab him so easy. So if playing a IC that can CG good its worse. Other than that yea marth is harder
yes
wario? no only campy ones
mk? no its like 55-45 mks favor, that matchup isnt even that hard (from experience)
pika? lolwut
he does more than alright against D3, and maybe even olimar
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
AKA: The good ones.
If playing campy wins, then Wario should play campy, hands down.
It's like the Marth vs Snake match-up, if they both charge head on, it's about even. If Snake plays "gay" (campy), then Snake wins. So a good snake will be campy.
That's true, but the most effective strategy for Wario is to just run around, at least vs someone like Kirby who is more prone to it that, say Marth or MK.
The reason I said possibly Pika was that I think he might have a slight advantage, but there haven't been many high level Kirby vs Pika matches.
MK vs Kirby isn't 55:45. You get me a MK who pokes with Ftilt/Dtilt and Upb's whenever you try to Bair, and he will make Kirby wince in pain. 60:40 is more likely, I don't think Kirby is as good as facing MK as Diddy or Wario.
Some stages IC's lose to Kirby on. Overall it's maybe 55:45 for either character.
The reason I said possibly Pika was that I think he might have a slight advantage, but there haven't been many high level Kirby vs Pika matches.
MK vs Kirby isn't 55:45. You get me a MK who pokes with Ftilt/Dtilt and Upb's whenever you try to Bair, and he will make Kirby wince in pain. 60:40 is more likely, I don't think Kirby is as good as facing MK as Diddy or Wario.
Some stages IC's lose to Kirby on. Overall it's maybe 55:45 for either character.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
You're missing the point. If a Wario doesn't camp on a match-up where it gives him a decided advantage, he's either:
A. Not playing to win.
B. Can't camp right.
Either way, they're not using the character to it's potential, and it's the CHARACTER that counts in the match-up. not the player. Otherwise everyone could claim that Marth has a bad match-up against them, unless he "plays gay" by not spamming f-smash, and actually using other moves.
Base match-ups on the character, not the player, if a character can camp to make the match-up advantageous for them, the match-up is in their favor. If they don't take advantage of that, it's their loss.
No i get your point, im just saying it's not always true. If he camped im sure he would be alot better.
This is brawl you're talking about. Everyone (except a handful and me) camps
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Because camping is the best strategy most of the time. Lack of hitstun/shieldstun/whatever = defensive game.
*fair camps*
Don't even compare G&W's tools to Wolf's.......that's laughable. Bair is actuallly a decent spacing tool for Fox......he's not really a character that is built off zoning......he's more of an in your face character so I don't see why you brought that up.
Fox doesn't ever even have to use FireFox. Fox can cancel his side b as well<_<. Shinestalling allows Fox to have multiple options which Wolf doesn't possess. Foxs' recovery is better than Wolfs.
Fox can deal with Marths zoning.....that's why the matchup is only a 4-6.
Once again Foxs' recovery is far better than Wolfs'.
I agree with the matchups for the most part.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Bair is an okay spacing tool for Fox.
I say okay because it's really height dependent; the hitbox doesn't fall to the ground like Wolf's Bair (it also doesn't have as much range), so characters like Pikachu and Snake can crouch under it. And quite a bit of characters who can't crouch under it have a good OoS option or punish if it does hit (Marth's upB, MK's nair, D3's grab)
Firefox and Fox illusion are easier to gimp, but because of shine-stalling and rising fair and such, he doesn't have to use these as much as Wolf does.
But really, his advantages over Wolf are recovery and killing, and those aren't that huge advantages.
And I know that this tier list isn't final and past B tier, placement isn't huge, but I'm just arguing this anyway.
I say okay because it's really height dependent; the hitbox doesn't fall to the ground like Wolf's Bair (it also doesn't have as much range), so characters like Pikachu and Snake can crouch under it. And quite a bit of characters who can't crouch under it have a good OoS option or punish if it does hit (Marth's upB, MK's nair, D3's grab)
Firefox and Fox illusion are easier to gimp, but because of shine-stalling and rising fair and such, he doesn't have to use these as much as Wolf does.
But really, his advantages over Wolf are recovery and killing, and those aren't that huge advantages.
And I know that this tier list isn't final and past B tier, placement isn't huge, but I'm just arguing this anyway.
ThatAintTripping
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2009
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- 19
The tier list definitely needs an update. Jigglypuff is way better than her current rank, and it's hard to imagine the best player in the country's/world's main not being top 5. Peach is way high, and gets beat too hard by Fox, Marth, and even Falcon to truly compete at the top level. Fox is clearly the best, followed by Marth IMO, but after that you could see some cool debate for Sheik/Jiggs/Falco. Followed by Falcon, then Peach. After that it really isn't tourney relevant.
That ain't Melee. Pay attention son.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
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