The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Browny]

wasted text.

Read the current stalling rule, then honestly tell me that only HA applies to that and that planking doesnt.

The legitimacy of HA as a tactic to become overpowered in tournaments isnt in quesiton. The legitimacy of it compared to planking, a legal tactic, is.

 

[Yikarur]

Browny stubbornness is so annoying. Nothing fits the stalling definition but taking a starman (lol) or perfet IDC.

 

[Browny]

eeexxxaaaccccttttlllllyyyyy

The point being; the current stalling definition is unclear and misleading. Why is it so hard for the BBR to change the stalling rule and write

'X, Y and Z is banned' instead of 'tactics which might do this are banned'

They make it seem like its extremely difficult, if not impossible, to fix this rule. Im still yet to get an answer on why the rules cant simply tell us which tactics are banned. theres only 4 in the entire game, 3 of which are already listed...

 

[Sharky]

Gentleman, I do believe I've come up with the solution to our HA problems. Please allow me to explain.

In order to determine the effectiveness and banworthiness of this tactic, we must first ask ourselves, what is stalling?

Truth be told, many a great historical figure have struggled across our known and unknown history to attain this precise knowledge. The bloody battle between the two factions tore gaping holes across history, until one day, one man arose from all the tyranny, and emerged with the one unifying theory of stall that would revolutionize standard stock battle for ages to come. His name...

was Joseph Stallin'.







unfortunately, his fatal stroke occured the night he was to finalize his grand theory, thus ruining any chance for his impact to have lasting effect.






Whoops. Carry on your debate, gentlemen...

 

[Judo777]

dear lord im tired of this. HA stalling IS beaten by spotdodge because if sonic cannot target you then he has no control over his direction. He can still do it but he has no reasonable way of preventing himself from being pulled to one side. And then u can jump off and bair him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

wasted text.

Read the current stalling rule, then honestly tell me that only HA applies to that and that planking doesnt.

The legitimacy of HA as a tactic to become overpowered in tournaments isnt in quesiton. The legitimacy of it compared to planking, a legal tactic, is.

I won't because I explicitly said that said that neither should be a legal tactic (for similar reasons).


I appreciate that you're attempting to make a point, but when you debate me, debate against MY POSITIONS not the positions that you wanna debate against.

Browny stubbornness is so annoying. Nothing fits the stalling definition but taking a starman (lol) or perfet IDC.

False, as I said it's a page out of Sirlin, you don't need full invincibility in order to make the game unplayable (or undeniably end or prevent gameplay). Rendering all interaction irrelevant does it just as well.

dear lord im tired of this. HA stalling IS beaten by spotdodge because if sonic cannot target you then he has no control over his direction. He can still do it but he has no reasonable way of preventing himself from being pulled to one side. And then u can jump off and bair him.

No.

Sonic rises during the initial frames of the homing attack, which can hit the ceiling, allowing him to camp the underside of the stage with it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

dear lord im tired of this. HA stalling IS beaten by spotdodge because if sonic cannot target you then he has no control over his direction. He can still do it but he has no reasonable way of preventing himself from being pulled to one side. And then u can jump off and bair him.

Wouldn't you rather just jump at him, air dodge to stop targeting, and then bair as you're right next to him >.>

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does this -really- warrant a title change?

I mean, it's right, but...

 

[WindMajor]

I want to see a match in which right when the game begins, Sonic just runs off the stage and does the HA stall for 8 minutes.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I want to see a match in which right when the game begins, Sonic just runs off the stage and does the HA stall for 8 minutes.

*picks MK*

I win. Go ahead and stall pls. :D

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I do too actually

No ones ever bothered to use it to time out a match because the user would risk getting kicked out of the tourney. At a glance, a TO would probably just go 'well this is pretty obviously stalling, out you go'

Why bother taking that risk?

People aren't going to bother using it until they know whether or not its definitly legal

 

[adumbrodeus]

I want to see a match in which right when the game begins, Sonic just runs off the stage and does the HA stall for 8 minutes.

Why would he do that?


You need a game where he has a stock lead, then runs off the stage and does it for whatever's left.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

lol. Saw the title change. Are people really *****ing about Sonic's HA stall? MK planking is WAY harder to stop. :/

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Surely % lead would do just fine?

 

[Yonder]

Does this -really- warrant a title change?

I mean, it's right, but...

It's to secretly distract people from the tier list lol

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

HEY! New tier list soon? Awesome.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Sonic is clearly triple-S-S-S God-Tier. He's obviously broken on Final Destination, we should get rid of that stage because it overcentralizes the counter-pick system if Sonic is legal. Ban Sonic, the rest of the cast is too slow.







So we should REALLY talk about something other than freaking Sonic Homing Attack now, lol...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So we should REALLY talk about something other than freaking Sonic Homing Attack now, lol...

If you insist.

Fox is going to be too high.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Surely % lead would do just fine?

Depends on the character, some of the characters he stalls out can attack him, but will trade stocks with him at best, because attacking him while he's using it under the stage is an automatic death sentence depending on the stage and where he is for them.

Sonic is clearly triple-S-S-S God-Tier. He's obviously broken on Final Destination, we should get rid of that stage because it overcentralizes the counter-pick system if Sonic is legal. Ban Sonic, the rest of the cast is too slow.

Overcentralization isn't the only ban criteria, some things are prima facie banworthy, and included in this category is things that undeniably end or prevent gameplay (which infinite stalls are). I have referenced to others.

 

[Raziek]

Thanks for the title change, maybe NOW people will start to lose this misconception.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

If you insist.

Fox is going to be too high.

I don't think Lain is planning on picking up Fox any time soon...

Overcentralization isn't the only ban criteria, some things are prima facie banworthy, and included in this category is things that undeniably end or prevent gameplay (which infinite stalls are). I have referenced to others.

-100 points for taking my post seriously You get a hug though


Okay fine, on a serious note, neither HA stalling or "MK perfect planking" has ever been proven unbeatable or even more than marginally useful in a tournament setting. I don't see what all of this fuss is over.

 

[Meru.]

So we should REALLY talk about something other than freaking Sonic Homing Attack now, lol...

I know you're a MetalMusicMan...

... BUT ITS BRITNEY SPEARS, COME ON, NOT BRITTANY, HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW THAT?!

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I know you're a MetalMusicMan...

... BUT ITS BRITNEY SPEARS, COME ON, NOT BRITTANY, HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW THAT?!

Misspelling the sacred name of the popstar who defined a the music of a generation!? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

I'm so ashamed roffle

 

[Suspect]

I don't think Lain is planning on picking up Fox any time soon...

i'm going to sleep

 

[Nidtendofreak]

MK's perfect planking has been proven through frame data that it's borderline impossible to stop, if not impossible outside of the planker screwing up. : / People are just too lazy/honourable to abuse it + LGLs everywhere.

And didn't you know? Lain wanted a character without CGs for a change, so he picked up Fox.

 

[Meru.]

MK's perfect planking has been proven through frame data that it's borderline impossible to stop, if not impossible outside of the planker screwing up. : / People are just too lazy/honourable to abuse it + LGLs everywhere.

And didn't you know? Lain wanted a character without CGs for a change, so he picked up Fox.

Great pick, instead of cging he now gets cged .

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Indeed. There's karma for ya.

 

[Espy Rose]

The last few pages of this thread made me rage.
I'm disappointed in you, adumb.

We need to solidify the issue around the legality of the Sonic HA Abuse. Make it clearly legal or illegal, so there won't be any problems at tournaments. That's the easiest way to solve the problem.

I wanna do HA Abuse myself in tournament, but I'm not gonna risk it with nuts like Xyro running around down here.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Rawr, methinks this issue likely isn't worthy of so much discussion. I'll bite though, just because Espy has a furry avatar and it's making me question my sexuality with its beguiling gaze and whatnot.

So, based on my fairly limited experience with it (no Sonic mains here), HA is really only questionably broken on a few stages, such as FD, right? Pardon my laziness, Sir Espy of Kasrani, but are there other stages that you believe compete with FD for making the tactic "nearly broken" or just FD?

 

[Espy Rose]

Don't worry MMM. You just gotta dig a little deeper.
Let the furry consume you.

=====

Well, based on my own opinion, the only levels I feel like the HA abuse is "nearly broken" on (using the 3.1 starters/counters):

- Lylat Cruise: The bottom of the stage covers a large area of land, so characters without a projectile have a harder time attacking him out of it.
- Pokemon Stadium: There's no "under the level", but HA abuse at the furthest corner underneath the stage MIGHT give several characters some issues.
- Final Destination: Very long, wide, and difficult to navigate for players to hit Sonic. Puts them in a TERRIBLE spot.
- Rainbow Cruise: You can do this under the ship, and under the initial walkway after the ship sinks. You CAN be hit through the thin layer of ground after the ship, though.
- Pokemon Stadium 2: Same issue as PS1.
- Luigi's Mansion: Not like this will ever be legal (mostly), it has the same issue as PS1/2.

That's about it. The rest of the stages either have weak HA Abuse tactics, or tactics that actually endanger the Sonic more than the opponent. Levels you can still do it on, but are dangerous to execute it:

- Battlefield
- Smashville
- Castle Siege (3rd Phase)
- Frigate Orpheon
- Green Greens
- Jungle Japes

And then levels that it's impossible on:

- Yoshi's Island: Brawl
- Castle Siege (1st and 2nd Phases)
- Delfino Plaza
- Halberd
- Brinstar
- Pictochat
- Rainbow Cruise (everything except the ship phase)
- Norfair
- Distant Planet
- Pirate Ship
- Port Town Aero Drive
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)

=====

I will say that I don't have intricate knowledge of the HA Abuse altogether, but I think that using what I do know, that characters can deal with this abuse. If you saw my list earlier, more than 20 characters can stop this, while only 7-8 can NEVER stop it. Then there's about 4-5 characters who can potentially stop it on certain levels.

can sheik needles stop it?
what about mario fireballs? or turnips/bananas?
most projectiles don't come close to being able to beat it.
pikachu, pit, lucas/ness, rob ... maybe falco... probably missing a couple more.

and then multiple jumps, so jigglypuff, kirby, meta knight, pit. maybe dedede (probably not).

so 9-10 characters? out of almost 40? and even then jumping over to him with a multi-jumper could easily end up negatively for you.

Bowser: None
Captain Falcon: Potentially UpB on certain stages.
Diddy Kong: Peanuts and Bananas. Diddy can recover.
Donkey Kong: None
Falco: Laser. Drop, double jump laser, recover.
Fox: Laser. Same as Falco
Mr. G&W: Possibly nair and bair. Can recover based on the level.
Ganondorf: None
Ice Climbers: None
Ike: None
Jigglypuff: Jump down, hit with anything. Recover.
King Dedede: Bair. Recover. Possibly even sideB.
Kirby: Jump down. Hit with anything. Recover.
Link: Charged arrows. Possibly bombs and boomerang.
Lucario: Aura Sphere.
Lucas: PK Thunder
Luigi: Possibly fireballs.
Mario: None
Marth: None
Meta Knight: LOL
Ness: PK Thunder
Olimar: White Pikmin. Possibly other Pikmin. No excuse here, Sonic's giving you all the time in the world to pluck and toss white Pikmin.
Peach: Turnip throw. Possibly sideB. Depends on level.
Pikachu: Thunder jolt. Charged Skull Bash.
Pit: Arrows. Jump down, hit, recover.
Pokemon Trainer: Ivysaur can Razor Leaf. Squirtle and Charizard most likely have nothing.
R.O.B.: Laser. Gyro. Jump down, attack, and recover.
Samus: Missles. Charge shot. Zair.
Sheik: Nothing
Snake: Well timed grenades. C4 depending on the level. Jump down, attack, recover.
Sonic: Jump down, attack, recover.
Toon Link: Arrows. Bombs. Boomerang.
Wario: Jump down, attack, recover. Jump down, waft, recover.
Wolf: Possibly laser?
Yoshi: Egg throw
Zelda: None
Zero Suit Samus: None. Possibly sideB depending on level.

As far as I can see:

23 characters can deal with it (including Squirtle and Charizard, since you can just switch into Ivysaur and fight it).
4 characters may be able to deal with it on certain levels.
8 characters most likely can't deal with it (not counting Squirtle, Charizard, or Zelda/Sheik as individual characters. Just Zelda/Sheik as one, and PT is not included).

I really don't see it as a problem when someone decides to choose a certain character that can't deal with the HA Abuse when there were clearly a whopping 23-27 (depending on the level) alternate characters who COULD. It's like picking Ganondorf vs. Ice Climbers when many other characters were clearly available.

Except they take off a stock, and anything more than that the BBR has already classified as stalling (doing infinites above 300%). Sonic can and will continue to stall under the stage infinitely against anyone who can't deal with it. essentially avoiding any and all combat, if that's not stalling than there are some serious double standards at work here.

At that point, it's the equivalent of ledge camping Falco with Meta Knight or Game & Watch. They're pretty much the same scenario. Falco cannot deal with it, and trying to fight it risks losing a stock.

If you want the HA Abuse to be considered stalling, then at the very least, MK/G&W's ledge camping could also have to be considered as such.

==========

TP: Meta Knight is invulnerable during his IDC. Sonic isn't during his HA abuse. Comparing the two is just absurd.[/quote]

Above that, again, it's dangerous for the Sonic, because you commit 100% to it, and put yourself in an easy-to-KO spot.

Above that, it's still not as good as MK/G&W's ledge camp, and it follows the same general pattern in difficulty of dealing with the tactic.

 

[milesg2g]

lol what does sonic have that's actually worth banning?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Don't worry MMM. You just gotta dig a little deeper.
Let the furry consume you.

=====

Well, based on my own opinion, the only levels I feel like the HA abuse is "nearly broken" on (using the 3.1 starters/counters):

- Lylat Cruise: The bottom of the stage covers a large area of land, so characters without a projectile have a harder time attacking him out of it.
- Pokemon Stadium: There's no "under the level", but HA abuse at the furthest corner underneath the stage MIGHT give several characters some issues.
- Final Destination: Very long, wide, and difficult to navigate for players to hit Sonic. Puts them in a TERRIBLE spot.
- Rainbow Cruise: You can do this under the ship, and under the initial walkway after the ship sinks. You CAN be hit through the thin layer of ground after the ship, though.
- Pokemon Stadium 2: Same issue as PS1.
- Luigi's Mansion: Not like this will ever be legal (mostly), it has the same issue as PS1/2.

That's about it. The rest of the stages either have weak HA Abuse tactics, or tactics that actually endanger the Sonic more than the opponent. Levels you can still do it on, but are dangerous to execute it:

- Battlefield
- Smashville
- Castle Siege (3rd Phase)
- Frigate Orpheon
- Green Greens
- Jungle Japes

And then levels that it's impossible on:

- Yoshi's Island: Brawl
- Castle Siege (1st and 2nd Phases)
- Delfino Plaza
- Halberd
- Brinstar
- Pictochat
- Rainbow Cruise (everything except the ship phase)
- Norfair
- Distant Planet
- Pirate Ship
- Port Town Aero Drive
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)

=====

I will say that I don't have intricate knowledge of the HA Abuse altogether, but I think that using what I do know, that characters can deal with this abuse. If you saw my list earlier, more than 20 characters can stop this, while only 7-8 can NEVER stop it. Then there's about 4-5 characters who can potentially stop it on certain levels.



Above that, again, it's dangerous for the Sonic, because you commit 100% to it, and put yourself in an easy-to-KO spot.

Above that, it's still not as good as MK/G&W's ledge camp, and it follows the same general pattern in difficulty of dealing with the tactic.

That's pretty much exactly what I thought.

Sonic takes a fair risk even doing it, and he has to be on a small amount of specific stages against specific characters for it to even work to begin with.

Rainbow cruise isn't even an issue because you can just wait out the boat part anyway. You can strike the rest of those stages if you are really that worried about it.

This really seems like a total non-issue. I don't understand why anyone is even bringing it up except that they are bored and have nothing better to argue about other than something like this...

If you get HA stalled, then GG. Counterpick better.

 

[mangan]

except that they are bored and have nothing better to argue about other than something like this...

You've pretty much got it right.

It's a new issue. People get tired of debating stagelists, timeouts, and MK-bans, so when something new comes along, it gets latched on to brought to the forefront.

 

[GimR]

AT first I was like when I looked at the thread title


and then I was like when I realized you guys weren't making fun of me

 

[Espy Rose]

lol what does sonic have that's actually worth banning?

HA Abuse is the closest thing Sonic has to a ban-able tactic.

You've pretty much got it right.

It's a new issue. People get tired of debating stagelists, timeouts, and MK-bans, so when something new comes along, it gets latched on to brought to the forefront.

I wouldn't say it's a new issue. It's an old issue that's been finally brought into the limelight because of the issues with semantics in the definition of stalling.

So yeah.

I think the problem with HA Abuse is more a knee-jerk reaction to a potential legalization of it.
If there's one thing this community is good at, it's knee-jerk reactions to every little detail.

@GimR: Don't be. We all love you thiiii~s much.

@Browny: <333~ The next thing on our list is showing everyone how to tech Sonic's dthrow.
Only ONE PERSON does it to me down here in Texas.

WHY?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't think Lain is planning on picking up Fox any time soon...



-100 points for taking my post seriously You get a hug though


Okay fine, on a serious note, neither HA stalling or "MK perfect planking" has ever been proven unbeatable or even more than marginally useful in a tournament setting. I don't see what all of this fuss is over.

I attacked the point of your sarcasm dude, I didn't take your post seriously at it's face, I attacked the point that it was making by not being serious.


Also, at some point I need to explain how to examine input maps properly to you, still your position is a great deal more intellectually consistent then the position of the individuals who know that MK's planking is broken and refuse to support it's ban.

Don't worry MMM. You just gotta dig a little deeper.
Let the furry consume you.

=====

Well, based on my own opinion, the only levels I feel like the HA abuse is "nearly broken" on (using the 3.1 starters/counters):

- Lylat Cruise: The bottom of the stage covers a large area of land, so characters without a projectile have a harder time attacking him out of it.
- Pokemon Stadium: There's no "under the level", but HA abuse at the furthest corner underneath the stage MIGHT give several characters some issues.
- Final Destination: Very long, wide, and difficult to navigate for players to hit Sonic. Puts them in a TERRIBLE spot.
- Rainbow Cruise: You can do this under the ship, and under the initial walkway after the ship sinks. You CAN be hit through the thin layer of ground after the ship, though.
- Pokemon Stadium 2: Same issue as PS1.
- Luigi's Mansion: Not like this will ever be legal (mostly), it has the same issue as PS1/2.

That's about it. The rest of the stages either have weak HA Abuse tactics, or tactics that actually endanger the Sonic more than the opponent. Levels you can still do it on, but are dangerous to execute it:

- Battlefield
- Smashville
- Castle Siege (3rd Phase)
- Frigate Orpheon
- Green Greens
- Jungle Japes

And then levels that it's impossible on:

- Yoshi's Island: Brawl
- Castle Siege (1st and 2nd Phases)
- Delfino Plaza
- Halberd
- Brinstar
- Pictochat
- Rainbow Cruise (everything except the ship phase)
- Norfair
- Distant Planet
- Pirate Ship
- Port Town Aero Drive
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)

=====

I will say that I don't have intricate knowledge of the HA Abuse altogether, but I think that using what I do know, that characters can deal with this abuse. If you saw my list earlier, more than 20 characters can stop this, while only 7-8 can NEVER stop it. Then there's about 4-5 characters who can potentially stop it on certain levels.



Above that, again, it's dangerous for the Sonic, because you commit 100% to it, and put yourself in an easy-to-KO spot.

Above that, it's still not as good as MK/G&W's ledge camp, and it follows the same general pattern in difficulty of dealing with the tactic.

Ok, here you did a giant post explaining which characters can do nothing about it and which characters can do something about it.


USING IT AGAINST ANY CHARACTER THAT CAN DO LITERALLY NOTHING ABOUT IT CONSISTUTES STALLING WHICH IS BANWORTHY AT IT'S FACE.


As I said, this does depend on the stage, but on stages where characters can do literally nothing (at least nothing effective) against it, it's stalling in the most basic sense and deserves a ban.



I'm sorry, but in those match-ups, on those stages it undeniably ends/prevents gameplay and therefore requires a ban.

 

[Espy Rose]

Oh, they can deal with it, adumb. However, they put themselves in a terrible position.
Sounds a bit like MK planking to me.

When I say that they can't deal with it, I'm really saying that they can, but that it's dangerous. Huge risk, small reward.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Adumb: Ganondorf, Bowser, and other characters wouldn't be able to deal with Fox shooting them a few times, and then running away the rest of the match. Even without circle camping, they basically can't catch him. Or Sonic hitting them once and then running away. Or Falcon. Ban running away? It's stage dependent obviously: it could work on BF, not so much on Brinstar. Ganondorf would be able to do nothing against a Sonic who kept running away the whole time and knew how to do it correctly.

 

[Browny]

OK adumb you say in some matchups it warrants a ban. You also say the same thing about planking in certain matchups.

So what would you do, ban HA under the stage in some matchups, or ban it entirely? same question for planking.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Adum, I definitely understand how the inputs and framedata work... The point is that you, and everyone else who freaks out about MK planking, completely ignore the human element to the issue. This is why it's so important to have proof through tournament results, of which there is none.

If we had any kind of proof in practice, I might be inclined to agree with you. I will never base any decision to ban something on nothing but frame data. That's extremely dangerous and careless.


Also, implying that a tactic should be banned in certain matchups but not in others is a ridiculously surgical idea that is just flat out silly. I won't even get into how impossible it would be to actually implement because there's no point in even going that far, as it's blatantly ridiculous to even think about implementing something so surgical and arbitrary.