The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[zeldspazz]

I hope they are delaying due to fixing where Zelda is.

Fixed for ya.

I want Zelda under Ganon. Really bad. Im not joking either ;D

 

[Xebenkeck]

if were going with MM references then you did it wrong, it should be

"night of the 3rd day - 3.5 hours remain"

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I wasn't: I've never played MM. ;_;

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

if were going with MM references then you did it wrong, it should be

"night of the 3rd day - 3.5 hours remain"

Nah, there was about 6 hours remaining when I posted that
For when the list is coming out according to Shaya
6 hours left...right when things get OMG MOON IS GOING TO KILL US serious
Mmm timing

 

[NickRiddle]

At least the music will get cool.

 

[Kewkky]

I didn't wanna be the one receiving the flames, but uhh... You guys probably won't see the tier list during the timeframe Shaya posted. In reality, the tier list will probably be released tomorrow (important people had to tend to other real-life things, sorry guys)... I gotta say that I personally find no reason as to why it could be released further away from tomorrow, so sit tight and kill some time meanwhile.

Sorry about this guys, I know how some of you are anxious to see the new tier list. Just bear waiting a bit more if it's not released today! I predict that it will be released before tomorrow at midnight.
<object width="0" height="0"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4003xkcTJmI?fs=1&autoplay=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4003xkcTJmI?fs=1&autoplay=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="0" height="0"></embed></object>

 

[Deleted member]

This.

The stigma around HA Abuse is too great, even now.
Despite that there are very compelling arguments for having the tech as legal, most people will turn the other cheek despite having very weak backings to their argument. I wouldn't be surprised if I got DQ'd from the next Texas tournament I went to because I used this tactic, even if I used the arguments that have been presented here, just because "it's gay".

You can't ban Sonic's HA Stall without banning tactics of similar natures (ledge camping with MK/G&W/Pit/ROB/etcetc), and you can't ban those (or Sonic's HA abuse) because they'd be arbitrary, unwarranted, unjustified surgical changes.

There's no problem with legalizing it, since it does not fall under the definition of "stalling", it doesn't over centralize, and it doesn't hinder the game from being playable.

Pick a better character, or lose. Choice is yours, really.

I know its not that important, but how is quite literally being untouchable not bannable? If all characters can actually hit sonic while hes doing this, then fine, but if it makes your character actually untouchable, its very bannable.

If you think pit, G&W and rob planking is untouchable, thats silly. Even MK is touchable, its just kinda hard and unsafe.

Also i dont care, im just curious, because a tactic that makes it impossible to touch u is very banworthy.

 

[gallax]

im willing to sell a tier list to anyone for 1$.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I didn't wanna be the one receiving the flames, but uhh... You guys probably won't see the tier list during the timeframe Shaya posted. In reality, the tier list will probably be released tomorrow (important people had to tend to other real-life things, sorry guys)... I gotta say that I personally find no reason as to why it could be released further away from tomorrow, so sit tight and kill some time meanwhile.

Sorry about this guys, I know how some of you are anxious to see the new tier list. Just bear waiting a bit more if it's not released today! I predict that it will be released before tomorrow at midnight.

Since we're on MM atm, appropriate methinks

Oh well, glad to hear its coming soon

 

[Yonder]

Technically, they still have 3 1/2 hours IIRC.

I hope they are delaying due to fixing where Fox is.

Hopefully lol, that spot was ridiculous, I was like, "Hmm, they accidently put Fox from their already planned future april fools list in the same spot for the actual tier list! How silly would that be? Right?"

 

[NickRiddle]

Hey... the music DID get cool.
Makes me want mod powers.

 

[Yikarur]

LOL Last 6 Hours Music is so epic and fits so gooood.

 

[Spelt]

best thread/title ever imo

 

[Espy Rose]

I know its not that important, but how is quite literally being untouchable not bannable? If all characters can actually hit sonic while hes doing this, then fine, but if it makes your character actually untouchable, its very bannable.

If you think pit, G&W and rob planking is untouchable, thats silly. Even MK is touchable, its just kinda hard and unsafe.

Also i dont care, im just curious, because a tactic that makes it impossible to touch u is very banworthy.

Wait, Sonic's untouchable during his HA Abuse?
News to me. Give this man a medal for his excellent contribution.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I didn't wanna be the one receiving the flames, but uhh... You guys probably won't see the tier list during the timeframe Shaya posted. In reality, the tier list will probably be released tomorrow (important people had to tend to other real-life things, sorry guys)... I gotta say that I personally find no reason as to why it could be released further away from tomorrow, so sit tight and kill some time meanwhile.

Sorry about this guys, I know how some of you are anxious to see the new tier list. Just bear waiting a bit more if it's not released today! I predict that it will be released before tomorrow at midnight.
<object width="0" height="0"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/POhGCEC4gN4?fs=1&autoplay=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/POhGCEC4gN4?fs=1&autoplay=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="0" height="0"></embed></object>

*que Jeopardy music*

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think the problem is that no one has ever wanted to risk using it incase it gets them DQ'ed from a tourney

I guess most people automatically assume it is stalling and don't bother trying to use it to time out matches

This

It needs to be tried out in matches like the stages that were originally banned to see whether its broken or not

Can you actually do anything if you tech Sonic's D Throw striaght away?

depends on the character, but for the most part it just leaves you in boxing range with both characters at nuetral position.

I know its not that important, but how is quite literally being untouchable not bannable? If all characters can actually hit sonic while hes doing this, then fine, but if it makes your character actually untouchable, its very bannable.

If you think pit, G&W and rob planking is untouchable, thats silly. Even MK is touchable, its just kinda hard and unsafe.

i was going to answer this in detail but apparently people just want to stay ignorant for ever.

every character can hit sonic and probably kill him while he does it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I dont recall ever debating with Adumbrodeus in regards to planking. O_o

I've pointed out my disagreement with your stance on many occassions, and I'm almost positive you responded at least once.

@ Adumb: Ganondorf, Bowser, and other characters wouldn't be able to deal with Fox shooting them a few times, and then running away the rest of the match. Even without circle camping, they basically can't catch him. Or Sonic hitting them once and then running away. Or Falcon. Ban running away? It's stage dependent obviously: it could work on BF, not so much on Brinstar. Ganondorf would be able to do nothing against a Sonic who kept running away the whole time and knew how to do it correctly.

Actually, that's why we banned stages that have circle-camping...

Oh, they can deal with it, adumb. However, they put themselves in a terrible position.
Sounds a bit like MK planking to me.

When I say that they can't deal with it, I'm really saying that they can, but that it's dangerous. Huge risk, small reward.

If characters can attack sonic and not die in the process, then it's fine, it's just a bad mu.

But somehow I doubt that Ganondorf can do that against sonic.

Adum, I definitely understand how the inputs and framedata work... The point is that you, and everyone else who freaks out about MK planking, completely ignore the human element to the issue. This is why it's so important to have proof through tournament results, of which there is none.

If we had any kind of proof in practice, I might be inclined to agree with you. I will never base any decision to ban something on nothing but frame data. That's extremely dangerous and careless.


Also, implying that a tactic should be banned in certain matchups but not in others is a ridiculously surgical idea that is just flat out silly. I won't even get into how impossible it would be to actually implement because there's no point in even going that far, as it's blatantly ridiculous to even think about implementing something so surgical and arbitrary.

Understanding input maps is a significantly different and more difficult skill then simply understand frame data dude.


And what I was suggesting is that it's an issue of it's at least required to be illegal in these MUs.


There's nothing wrong with going for a surgical ban if it's warranted.

OK adumb you say in some matchups it warrants a ban. You also say the same thing about planking in certain matchups.

So what would you do, ban HA under the stage in some matchups, or ban it entirely? same question for planking.

TBH, it depends on the number of MUs that it's an issue in, if it's a great enough number of match-ups for pure practicality's sake it would require universal ban.

This is for both questions.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@Adumb: Yes, I know that's why Circle Camping is banned. But Sonic can still run away all game on a big stage. Ganondorf is too slow, and Sonic is too fast and agile. If Sonic kept jumping from platform to platform on BF against Ganondorf, would you ban it? Ganondorf can't do crap against it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic HA stall is realistically about as useful as DDDs standing infinite, it ***** about the same about of characters, works on about the same amount of stages as his walk off CG, and the characters that are affected by it matter about the same, relatively small amount.

Only difference is that you cant auto kill sonic for actually initiating the grab with D3

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hello people.

I'd just like to say that whilst the list was leaked, and people may feel it isn't a big deal, the ordering of characters 1-38 (or 39, or whatever it is, i don't even know any more) is done, other things that go with our release of the tier list are not.

Things like how many tiers there will be, who will be in each tier, etc etc haven't been finalised.
Also write ups and what not will be included that haven't been completed yet.

I will say now though, that the tier list will be officially released within 48 hours.

I will rage quit if I do not have a tire list by 10:58 tonight.

 

[Enzo]

Whens the new tier list out, i'm anxious to see how low the BBR is gonna put MK

EDIT : i want my tier list at 10:57 tonight!!!!

 

[zeldspazz]

Didnt someone just say its not gonna be realeased til tomorrow ;__;

 

[Kofu]

Actually he said that it would most likely be out before Midnight today (I assume that's midnight EST). lrn 2 english Sapsaz.

But it could come out tomorrow, yes.

 

[Judo777]

I feel like people replied to my post without even reading it. I said YES i know that sonic can HA the underside of the stage even when u dodge. HOWEVER in order for him to do this he has to HA immediately after doing it the first time. The result is no control in direction beyond beyond turn around B's. If u stay within sonics range and go to one side he will be pulled to that side. The only way he can prevent this is to DI away from u a little before using HA again. AT THAT POINT he will no longer be touching the celing and will be relying on the ability to home onto ur position in order to make up the lost height. AT THAT POINT a spotdodge will kill him.

So yes the ability to control and sonics movement AND THE ABILITY TO SPOTDODGE/AIRDODGE beat sonics HA stalling. I can beat it with every character in the cast.

WITHOUT SPOT DODGE SONICS HA STALLING WORKS. So like i said yes it does.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

@Judo - That won't work, all Sonic has to do is let Homing Attack rise up when he's moved away slightly. The huge delay before he uses Homing Attack would be enough for him to move away and then continue to bounce off the underneath of the stage

For Homing Attack stalling, Sonic never, ever has to rely on where his opponent is...
...unless they're MK and they're about to Uair him lol

Can someone please make a video about this matter or something?

 

[Judo777]

@Judo - That won't work, all Sonic has to do is let Homing Attack rise up when he's moved away slightly. The huge delay before he uses Homing Attack would be enough for him to move away and then continue to bounce off the underneath of the stage

For Homing Attack stalling, Sonic never, ever has to rely on where his opponent is...
...unless they're MK and they're about to Uair him lol

Can someone please make a video about this matter or something?

yes he does because if u are in his range HA will try and hit me. Even if it works when im not present doesnt mean my position cant alter his direction. Also the distance u get from DIing away slightly if not any significant amount compared to how far i drag u because HA trys to go in my direction if i dont spotdodge.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, it doesn't. Have read any of the last 8-10 pages?

Sonic rises up a little bit when using homing attack. If that INITAL rise hits the stage, he bounces down. No movement at all. He can stall in one spot no matter what you do short of the stage moving him (Green Greens wind) or you unplugging the opponent's controller. End of discussion.

 

[Life]

I believe I already inquired about whether Sonic's HA can be led to the side of the stage and got a "no, he has time to move back slightly before HAing again".

 

[Yadel16]

can we move on from sonic... Come on now

 

[vVv Rapture]

So...about that version 5 of the list...

 

[Spelt]

It'll probably be out by never.

 

[Judo777]

No, it doesn't. Have read any of the last 8-10 pages?

Sonic rises up a little bit when using homing attack. If that INITAL rise hits the stage, he bounces down. No movement at all. He can stall in one spot no matter what you do short of the stage moving him (Green Greens wind) or you unplugging the opponent's controller. End of discussion.

He doesn't move at all???? like at all????? cause if he moves a little bit like i think he does then ur wrong. I know full well about his rising up causing him to bounce even if u arent homing anyone. But he moves a little everytime i have seen it. So if u can provide a video of sonic doing HA with absolutely no movement (not back and forth movement cause i am aware and have already given a solution to that) then i will withdraw my arguement. But first u have to show me a vid of sonic being able to do it without moving AT ALL or else i can manipulate his direction with spotdodges and not spotdodging to force him to one side cause he cant make up the distance that im aware of with enough time for his rise to reach the ceiling.

 

[Kewkky]

Actually he said that it would most likely be out before Midnight today (I assume that's midnight EST). lrn 2 english Sapsaz.

But it could come out tomorrow, yes.

I said before TOMORROW AT MIDNIGHT. TOMORROW is from 12:01am - 12:00am. Midnight is at 12:00am, hence the military time 2400 instead of jumping straight from 2359 to 0000. 12:00am tonight is today's midnight, hence why people say "today at midnight" when scheduling. lrn 2 english Kfouf.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Take it up with Espy. He's the one providing the Sonic info. I'd imagine he has it correct. I do know that, 100% for sure, you can use HA under the stage in such a way that spot dodges do nothing. That has been explained to death by at least half a dozen different members. Somebody mentioned forcing Sonic to slowly move to the stage edge, and it was debunked.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Judo: they can just push the control stick in the other direction to prevent from going that way... if they dont control it though, they do move slowly.

 

[Enzo]

Take it up with Espy. He's the one providing the Sonic info. I'd imagine he has it correct. I do know that, 100% for sure, you can use HA under the stage in such a way that spot dodges do nothing. That has been explained to death by at least half a dozen different members. Somebody mentioned forcing Sonic to slowly move to the stage edge, and it was debunked.

First off its a she
second its a she
third lrn to sdhf;sdhfdsif

 

[Judo777]

@Judo: they can just push the control stick in the other direction to prevent from going that way... if they dont control it though, they do move slowly.

thats what im talking about and im telling u if u time spotdodges it prevents sonic from from fixing his movement in between HAes i will have to talk to espy.

 

[ShadowLink84]

thats what im talking about and im telling u if u time spotdodges it prevents sonic from from fixing his movement in between HAes i will have to talk to espy.

Cause everyone forgets about Shadowlink84 and the Sonic boards.


1. The homing attack does not need a target to bounce off the ceiling.
2. Sonic WILL, regardless if there is a target or not, bounce off the ceiling and move randomly to the left or right.
3. Sonic CAN move back into place right after a homing attack, nullifying the movement that occurs after a bounce.

 

[DMG]

1. When Sonic uses Homing attack anywhere, on stage or on the stage, he rises upwards a bit.

2. Normally, if you spotdodge/move away, Sonic will not follow you and will shoot downwards/to the side

3. However, if Sonic touches the ceiling of a stage before he shoots away, he will bounce off the ceiling no matter what. When Sonic touches the ceiling before he takes off, the game counts his body as hitting the ceiling when he takes off, hence he bounces off.

So normally, Sonic dies if he does it incorrectly. However, if he falls off and uses HA so that he touches the Ceiling before he would attack, then he is safe and will keep bouncing off the ceiling.

 

[Z'zgashi]

thats what im talking about and im telling u if u time spotdodges it prevents sonic from from fixing his movement in between HAes i will have to talk to espy.

No, thy can do this AFTER the HA hits the bottom of the stage