The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Conviction]

Fox can rising ledge drop and laser while jumping up, until sonic is at a higher precent....if Sonic is a stock lead ahead...oh well.

 

[TP]

Spelt, if your character has a projectile, or multiple jumps, then there's plenty of opportunities to stop it.

Sonic's HA abuse is in the same realm of "too bad, you're screwed" as Fox vs. Pikachu, Dedede vs. Donkey Kong, or any other of those character match up specific traits.

Plenty of characters can deal with Sonic's HA abuse.
And because of that, Sonic's HA cannot, indeed, stall forever. Nor is it difficult to fight at all.

Again, using HA under the level is NOT stalling, since it's easily counter-able.
It's clearly running to a better position vs. another character. IE: Not stalling.

=====

Also, I'm still appalled that people STILL, to this day, after SEVERAL explanations, don't understand Sonic's HA.

Metaknight's IDC abuse is in the same realm of "too bad, you're screwed" as Ice Climbers on RC, Dedede on Bridge of Eldin, or any other of those stage specific traits.

Every character can deal with Metaknight's IDC abuse. Just CP Green Greens and eat the apples to heal yourself so you take the lead.
And because of that, Metaknight's IDC cannot, indeed, stall forever. Nor is it difficult to fight at all.

Again, using IDC for 8 minutes is NOT stalling, since it's easily counter-able.
It's clearly running to a better position vs. another character. IE: Not stalling.

 

[Espy Rose]

can sheik needles stop it?
what about mario fireballs? or turnips/bananas?
most projectiles don't come close to being able to beat it.
pikachu, pit, lucas/ness, rob ... maybe falco... probably missing a couple more.

and then multiple jumps, so jigglypuff, kirby, meta knight, pit. maybe dedede (probably not).

so 9-10 characters? out of almost 40? and even then jumping over to him with a multi-jumper could easily end up negatively for you.

Bowser: None
Captain Falcon: Potentially UpB on certain stages.
Diddy Kong: Peanuts and Bananas. Diddy can recover.
Donkey Kong: None
Falco: Laser. Drop, double jump laser, recover.
Fox: Laser. Same as Falco
Mr. G&W: Possibly nair and bair. Can recover based on the level.
Ganondorf: None
Ice Climbers: None
Ike: None
Jigglypuff: Jump down, hit with anything. Recover.
King Dedede: Bair. Recover. Possibly even sideB.
Kirby: Jump down. Hit with anything. Recover.
Link: Charged arrows. Possibly bombs and boomerang.
Lucario: Aura Sphere.
Lucas: PK Thunder
Luigi: Possibly fireballs.
Mario: None
Marth: None
Meta Knight: LOL
Ness: PK Thunder
Olimar: White Pikmin. Possibly other Pikmin. No excuse here, Sonic's giving you all the time in the world to pluck and toss white Pikmin.
Peach: Turnip throw. Possibly sideB. Depends on level.
Pikachu: Thunder jolt. Charged Skull Bash.
Pit: Arrows. Jump down, hit, recover.
Pokemon Trainer: Ivysaur can Razor Leaf. Squirtle and Charizard most likely have nothing.
R.O.B.: Laser. Gyro. Jump down, attack, and recover.
Samus: Missles. Charge shot. Zair.
Sheik: Nothing
Snake: Well timed grenades. C4 depending on the level. Jump down, attack, recover.
Sonic: Jump down, attack, recover.
Toon Link: Arrows. Bombs. Boomerang.
Wario: Jump down, attack, recover. Jump down, waft, recover.
Wolf: Possibly laser?
Yoshi: Egg throw
Zelda: None
Zero Suit Samus: None. Possibly sideB depending on level.

As far as I can see:

23 characters can deal with it (including Squirtle and Charizard, since you can just switch into Ivysaur and fight it).
4 characters may be able to deal with it on certain levels.
8 characters most likely can't deal with it (not counting Squirtle, Charizard, or Zelda/Sheik as individual characters. Just Zelda/Sheik as one, and PT is not included).

I really don't see it as a problem when someone decides to choose a certain character that can't deal with the HA Abuse when there were clearly a whopping 23-27 (depending on the level) alternate characters who COULD. It's like picking Ganondorf vs. Ice Climbers when many other characters were clearly available.

Except they take off a stock, and anything more than that the BBR has already classified as stalling (doing infinites above 300%). Sonic can and will continue to stall under the stage infinitely against anyone who can't deal with it. essentially avoiding any and all combat, if that's not stalling than there are some serious double standards at work here.

At that point, it's the equivalent of ledge camping Falco with Meta Knight or Game & Watch. They're pretty much the same scenario. Falco cannot deal with it, and trying to fight it risks losing a stock.

If you want the HA Abuse to be considered stalling, then at the very least, MK/G&W's ledge camping could also have to be considered as such.

==========

TP: Meta Knight is invulnerable during his IDC. Sonic isn't during his HA abuse. Comparing the two is just absurd.

 

[solecalibur]

Zss can dsmash / dtilt if they are poping up and trying to hit you

 

[Spelt]

most of those are extremely situational or very risky.

 

[phi1ny3]

so ZSS can't try a paralyzer shot (neutral B)?

 

[Espy Rose]

If the Sonic is getting hit by ZSS's dsmash, then they are clearly not abusing the HA properly.
However, I think it might be possible for ZSS to hit the camping Sonic with a charged laser, but I can't be too sure of whether or not she can recover afterward.

I'd like to think she couldn't. But if she could, then only 7 people truly can't handle it.

@Spelt: No. They're not.

You drop from the edge, hit him, and recover. It's no more riskier than challenging G&W while he ledge camps.
What you forget is that the Sonic is committed to the HA abuse. They cannot attack you either, or else they'll put themselves in a terrible position with a very low chance of recovery.

Sonic's HA abuse also typically requires the Sonic to use his second jump prior to the initial HA, so all he can do is bounce off the ceiling until he recovers, or gets hit. Attacking during this state is pretty much a death wish.

So, with Sonic committed to the action, what risk is there in doing what I posted? Other than, of course, the player making a rather large mistake, and dying because of it.

...which STILL sounds like fighting G&W's ledgecamp game to me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike could go for an aetherspike suicide, provided he could get far enough under the stage. Obviously, this wouldn't work with "Last stock vs last stock" stalling, but otherwise it at least reforces a neutral battle.

And I'm near positive ZSS could make it back in most cases.

 

[Espy Rose]

I could see how it would work, Niddo. I'm sure that at some point, it's viable to drop down and sideB or neutral B, then recover.

But some levels might make that difficult. Final Destination comes to mind.
The Ike one might be situational as well, but I can see that as possible, too.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Espy, Peach can Float underneath the stage and hit Sonic. Snake can simply use Side B

The problem is that this is very stage situational. Some stages don't allow you to use Homing Attack stall as you can't go underneath the stage fully (e.g. PS1, PS2). Other stages are simply too small to do it safely (BF, SV)

 

[Espy Rose]

Espy, Peach can Float underneath the stage and hit Sonic. Snake can simply use Side B

The problem is that this is very stage situational. Some stages don't allow you to use Homing Attack stall as you can't go underneath the stage (e.g. PS1, PS2). Other stages are simply too small to do it safely (BF, SV)

It only helps prove my point when you bring up alternate solutions like that. Thanks Rick.
On both points, by the way.

It's fairly easy to fight HA stall. All you need to do is pick the right character.
Odd, that sounds like the exact same thing you should do vs. Ice Climbers as Ganon...or vs. Dedede as Donkey Kong...or...

 

[DMG]

Hmmm

What about that Doctor Mario Guy?

None of this applies to him obviously. Would some BBR member/Site Admin. mind telling me why?

Sure. I was given direct authority to troll you all make up fake AT, lists, and general scallywag stuff.

I don't think you could call it serious trolling. I didn't intently post anything controversial or "flame bait" or even make life hard for you, I just said "Hey guys, Shiek has new AT!" and "Lunchroom tiers" and "Fe Fi Fo Fum/etc".

It's your job not to touch my bait; touching it makes it dirty and then real fish won't want it. Like I said before, I don't fish for people, but for the moment.

so ZSS can't try a paralyzer shot (neutral B)?

Idk, she probably COULD but she would likely die afterward.

 

[Enzo]

Bear in mind that Sonic needs to gain the lead for this to actually work

From first thoughts, characters that can deal with Homing Attack under a stage like FD successfully without killing themselves are:

MK
Snake
Falco* lol? lasers?
Pikachu
Lucario
Pit
Toon Link
Kirby
ROB
Peach* No
Luigi* No
Wolf* No
Sonic its aditto
Ness
Lucas
Samus* Only way i can think of is homing missile but i dougbt it reaches
Jigglypuff

gonna go ahead and fix the first list for ya bud * means i dont agree with you

 

[Kewkky]

Hmmm

What about that Doctor Mario Guy?

None of this applies to him obviously. Would some BBR member/Site Admin. mind telling me why?

He gets infractions if he was trying to be harmful, don't worry. You just wouldn't see them! Just keep reporting him whenever he says he's trolling if you ever wanna see him banned, but make sure its something harmful. ;D

And well, we're not just gonna ban you outright for trolling. Notice that the two previous examples are pretty serious examples, and if anyone would do them for prolonged periods of time, we end up seeing them perma-banned from the website. Stuff like that is how Inui got perma'd, how mango got perma'd, how gangsta kirby got perma'd, and the list could go on but those are the ones off the top of my head.

 

[Espy Rose]

You know, I also forgot that Wario can throw tires at Sonic under the level.
And it's funny how BLM completely missed my list.

 

[phi1ny3]

^Yeah, totally forgot about that lol.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

It only helps prove my point when you bring up alternate solutions like that. Thanks Rick.
On both points, by the way.

It's fairly easy to fight HA stall. All you need to do is pick the right character.
Odd, that sounds like the exact same thing you should do vs. Ice Climbers as Ganon...or vs. Dedede as Donkey Kong...or...

Lol even after I posted a list of character I didn't think could deal with it under FD/Lylat Cruise?

Since we're talking tier list and we're talking BBR 3.1 rules as well, the stage striking system is in order

Lylat Cruise and FD are in seperate catergories so you can ban both of them and still have another stage you can get rid of out of the remaining BF, SV, YI, Castle Siege and PS1 assuming you use a 7 starter set
3 stage starter doesn't have any problematic stages, nor does 9 stage due to the amount of bans you get. With a 5 stage starter, you only really need to ban Lylat Cruise to eliminate the Homing Attack problem

Provided you win vs Sonic (which you should do, this is Sonic we're talking about), you could be counterpicked to FD or Lylat Cruise where upon you could be stalled out via Homing Attack if you lose the lead

Although, its a counterpick for a reason but then again, we don't have stages like Bridge of Eldin legal

...I'm just posting the stuff for you people to decide


@BLM - Peach can definitly Float undeneath the stage and smack Sonic. Lol stagespike. I think Samus can Super missile or Charged Shot Sonic but...I'd have to check again

I'm skeptical that throwing items would work because they arc downwards when you throw them, I haven't actually checked throwing projectiles cause I ruled them out straight away lol

 

[DMG]

Yeah was gonna mention, trust me I got my fair amount of infractions, some of them in the BBR (mostly for funny posts they interpret as trolling, not gonna get into that though).

Justblaze you just worry bout joining the masses who hunger for a new tier list.

 

[da K.I.D.]

most of those are extremely situational or very risky.

im sorry, were you talking about ways to beat homing attack stall, or ways to beat MKs planking?

 

[milesg2g]

I wanna see Yoshi go up in the tier list. I def see him replacing Bowser's place.

 

[Z'zgashi]

blah blah blah...

Yoshi: Egg throw

blah blah...

Yoshi can also egg lay, DJ uair, DJ bair, DJ nair, and DJ fair. Depending on the stage, he can also use dair.

 

[Espy Rose]

Z, are you seriously telling me that Yoshi can go UNDERNEATH BF/SV/FD/etc, DOUBLE JUMP to an attack against a HA abusing Sonic, then RECOVER?

...without your DJ?

 

[bigman40]

Yes, we can do that. However, FD is the one where it's too much of a risk to try.

 

[Conviction]

LOL Sooooo you are telling me Yoshi can DJ and aerial and make to stage without dying?

Unless Yoshi has some third jump I don't know about...

EDIT: Ninja'd by Espy and answered by Scatz....

Yo Scatz I'm skeptical about making back on any stage, mind showing me this Saturday?

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi doing an aerial while DJing causes him to continue to move along the stage without immediately bouncing back down to his death (it's exactly like the cave of life syndrome in melee when you just float under a ceiling). As long as we do an aerial before we hit the ceiling, we can go under BF and SV with no real problem and recover (at least touch the ledge).

It's a gamble, but it's very doable.

 

[Z'zgashi]

LOL Sooooo you are telling me Yoshi can DJ and aerial and make to stage without dying?

Unless Yoshi has some third jump I don't know about...

When we double jump and then attack, we can hit the top of the stage and slide across it without falling (lol terrible explanation). We can then egg toss once more to grab the ledge.

And yes, FD is gay (too big...)

lol :shiek:'d baaad

 

[Conviction]

Yoshi doing an aerial while DJing causes him to continue to move along the stage without immediately bouncing back down to his death (it's exactly like the cave of life syndrome in melee when you just float under a ceiling). As long as we do an aerial before we hit the ceiling, we can go under BF and SV with no real problem and recover (at least touch the ledge).

It's a gamble, but it's very doable.

Ok but do you mind showing me this Saturday lol?


EDIT: I saw that quick little edit you did Z

 

[Poltergust]

Yes, we can do that. However, FD is the one where it's too much of a risk to try.

Like Scatz says, we can really only Egg Toss if we are on a big stage like FD or Lylat. Small stages allows Yoshi to use other options because he can reach the ledge on the other side, though.

It's not impossible for eggs by themselves to stage-spike, either. I've done it a couple of times on stages like PS1 and stuff.

EDIT: Ow, double ninja'd. D:

 

[Espy Rose]

Alright, I can see that happening, Scatz.
Still, just egg throwing is much safer and easier.

 

[bigman40]

You'd have to come to Siege in order for me to show you.

Actually, I'll just link you a vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4_Zjx9Pz0&p=6E3DA1BB0F8B2B51&playnext=1&index=38

This is the extreme method, which is why we wouldn't even try to chase Sonic under FD since it's much more risk.

Edit: Of course it's easier, but it's at least another option. Eggs don't stage spike until the opponent breaks the threshold for knockback.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

what about that yoshi jumping tech ive heard about in the kirby vs yoshi mu thread?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I saw that quick little edit you did Z

Darn you and your catlike senses

 

[Poltergust]

what about that yoshi jumping tech ive heard about in the kirby vs yoshi mu thread?

Jumping tech?

 

[bigman40]

Infinite jumping? It's a useless tech no Yoshi should really be using. However, it might finally prove slight use in terms of running away from Kirby since he's slow as dirt.

Superjumping? Not point against Kirby since he has multiple jumps to negate our attempt.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Like Scatz says, we can really only Egg Toss if we are on a big stage like FD or Lylat.

But this is where Homing Attack stall is a potential problem

On any other stage, Homing Attack stall is very easy to deal with

 

[Juushichi]

Are you talking about Dragonic Reverse, D3?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Jumping tech?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11209517&postcount=17

Yoshi specific thing. Its basically a raising double jump airdodge but we keep our double jump so we'd doublejump airdodge through you and then be free to do another double jump land w/e just puts us away from you with more options

 

[bigman40]

Are you talking about Dragonic Reverse, D3?

Not the same in any form or fashion. Should really understand the techs espeically since it was out back in like mid 08(?)

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11209517&postcount=17

Infinite jumping? It's a useless tech no Yoshi should really be using. However, it might finally prove slight use in terms of running away from Kirby since he's slow as dirt.

Superjumping? Not point against Kirby since he has multiple jumps to negate our attempt.

Celes is referring to Superjump, which is meh in this matchup still. Good for running away though.

 

[Poltergust]

But this is where Homing Attack stall is a potential problem

On any other stage, Homing Attack stall is very easy to deal with

Like I said, Egg Toss does fine on those stages on its own.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11209517&postcount=17

Uh, that's just infinite-jumping. Any character can do it, and you need some ground in order for it to work.

 

[Conviction]

EDIT: Ow, double ninja'd. D:

Join the club

You'd have to come to Siege in order for me to show you.

Actually, I'll just link you a vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4_Zjx9Pz0&p=6E3DA1BB0F8B2B51&playnext=1&index=38

This is the extreme method, which is why we wouldn't even try to chase Sonic under FD since it's much more risk.

Edit: Of course it's easier, but it's at least another option. Eggs don't stage spike until the opponent breaks the threshold for knockback.

Ok SIEGE it is.

Darn you and your catlike senses