The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[g-regulate]

just trust us, gonzo is 100% correct.

 

[IC3R]

I always find Peach a problem, with being an aerial goddess and all. Her Dair ruins most ground options, while Bair and Nair are quick to cover the air. She has a decent projectile (though it can be canceled by Kirby's Bair unless it's a Bob-omb ), and her fricking Parasol eats right through most edge/airguarding techniques.

I think dropping offstage, airdodging, and then jumping up for an aerial or a hammer can bypass her Up-B, and possibly stagespike her, but I've never tested this out. You could also do a reversed Inhale, and Starshot Stagespike her The risks are obvious: mis-timing will get you Bair/Uair'd and slammed away from the stage, and she can Toad you (do they even use Toad?) if you try to smack them again.

Throw combos on Peach are a no-no, unless it's quick like F-throw > Fair, and follow up from there.


Eating Turnips with Inhale is lol

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Percon - Fair enough. You have good reasons for everything, as I have mine, and we aren't exactly pushing for opposite things, it's pretty close so I'm satisfied with what you've put

As for stages, I can't beat Kirby on Yoshi's Island, period. It's so good for him, at least against Peach. I always ban this one.

I like taking Kirby to Luigi's Mansion more than any other stage. I don't think its a bad Kirby stage, its just a good all around Peach stage.

 

[g-regulate]

swallowing peach and dropping off the stage is an absolute killer for peach. otherwise i think the matchup is pretty even, peach really has to hold her own though, fairs and slaps. watch for kirby fsmash!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

and she can Toad you (do they even use Toad?)

So we should have some games sometime



Most Peach's don't use Toad, even when the enemy is blatantly going to try and hit them with something and Toad would probably be the smartest choice. It is pretty punishable if you miss with it though

That reminds me, copy Toad off Peach. Seriously, you won't regret it as it is a very good move and can really tame an agressive Peach. Kirby's Toad works in pretty much exactly the same way as Peach's

Don't use it if you want to be a swine and go for a swallow kill though. Equally, don't resort to using it all the time when Peach is attempting to finish you off whilst you're offstage...it's horribly predictable and makes me sad

 

[Percon]

Percon - Fair enough. You have good reasons for everything, as I have mine, and we aren't exactly pushing for opposite things, it's pretty close so I'm satisfied with what you've put

As for stages, I can't beat Kirby on Yoshi's Island, period. It's so good for him, at least against Peach. I always ban this one.

I like taking Kirby to Luigi's Mansion more than any other stage. I don't think its a bad Kirby stage, its just a good all around Peach stage.

ye ye, respects

Spoiler

I don't believe I just said that

I love Yoshi's. A lot. I'd agree you shouldn't play vs Kirby here (mine, at least).

And you're right about LM... not as good for Kirby as most other characters. We've got an uthrow > ceiling thing but that's situational and really not a big deal.

It's banned sometimes, though... how do Peaches feel about Delphino (vs Kirby, specifically)? I've had trouble sometimes here, maybe it's just me.

 

[~Gonzo~]

swallowing peach and dropping off the stage is an absolute killer for peach. otherwise i think the matchup is pretty even, peach really has to hold her own though, fairs and slaps. watch for kirby fsmash!

lol G-Reg, wow hahahahaha

 

[Ills]

ye ye, respects

Spoiler

I don't believe I just said that

I love Yoshi's. A lot. I'd agree you shouldn't play vs Kirby here (mine, at least).

And you're right about LM... not as good for Kirby as most other characters. We've got an uthrow > ceiling thing but that's situational and really not a big deal.

It's banned sometimes, though... how do Peaches feel about Delphino (vs Kirby, specifically)? I've had trouble sometimes here, maybe it's just me.

Sometimes it's a *****, sometimes not.

I've witnessed several kirbycides turn into a swallow and jumping off the ledge because the stage had transitioned to one with a kill zone underneath to one without it.

I only play peach on occasion so I can't say I'm the best to answer this question.

 

[Dark.Pch]

To me this fihgt is even. Kirbies spoke from thier side, so I will speak on mines.

Peach has to be careful and play a tight spacing game to land hits and do well. And a good use of turnips (I sad good use, not spam or camp) Peach can just force kirby to approach her cause of turnips and this alone can get some good damage on him.

Peach can make it really hard for kirby to hit here. Watch how I spaced like hell against kirby making it hard to hit or even K.O me. This vid is about spacing as an example, I don't wanna hear anything about the playier in general ( I know it is gonna happen)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc6lYB1al88&fmt=18

Spaceed Fairs and bairs can get through most of Kirbys moves and even his spacing game. She can space quickly with both of those moves. So the speed goes to her when it comes to this. and she also has many ways to approach kirby and others in general like:

- Fair
- FC>Fair
- Dair
- FC>Dair
- FC>Nair
- Turnip>Fair
- FC>Turnip>Fair
- Bair
- Glide tossing
- Nair

Advance approaches:

- Glide toss> FC>Nair
- Glide toss>reverse Bair
- Glide toss>Nair
- Glide toss>Grab
- Reverse Glide toss> Dsmash or Fsmash
- Reverse Glide toss> Bair

You would think kirby be hard to hit due to his size. that be the case for most People. But not Peach. Her floating is godly fot this. Cause you can Float at ANY height you want to attack someone. All his grouhd attack (besides up tilt) Peach can float at the right hieght and you won't touch her, while she can hit you. This is a evasion tactic with floating. Peach using her floating well and skillfully, you won't be touching her so easy.

And as Edresse said,good thing for us is Kirby is not so hard to K.O compared to others. With spacing and turnips, It will be hard to get inside and deal good damage, while she can bait you with both and go in for hits. I always space like hell against Kirby and makes this fight less of a struggle. And his lil ground combes he has, Peach can get out of it. It is not offical on her.

I played Chu at tournament and he trieed that on me and broke out, the second game we has, I was beating him. I was on my second stock and he has one stock. he was at mid % and I was around 34. Some how I SD out of random, and out of fustration, I went to him and let him kirbycide me as sonn as I came back. I don't wanna speak of that day again, so much crap happen at that tourny that it was unreal. But I was giving chu a really hard time and could have beat him if I should kept my cool. Not saying I would have. Don't get my words twisted. But I think I could have taken him out game 2. I was doing so well.

Me and chu spoke about our match and he even said I could have won it, same with that other people who say it. Now this is comming from chu andpeople who know him and me. no BS here.

I don't like to play kirby aggressive. He can get at Peach good for it with his decent range and air game. So I take it easy, space and bait him. and turnips when I can for damage.

For stages chu likes halberd, and I knew that so I banned it against him. so you can use that stage. Small stages are best for this match. Kirby can kill her well off the sides. So places like Pictochat are good.

Delfino eh? Never played kirby there. I say it can be good cause of the side deaths. But Peach can get you on that too. I can't comment on this till I play one there and have experience on it. But I say yea, thats another good one for kirby.

I say it is even. Though I explained as well as the others what Peach can do to kirby. You guys did it as well on your part. Which makes it even. Before I was thinking of giving her the advantage (and I am still thinking about this, not trying to BS Peach cause I man her) Cause she has turnips and can use them to control the match if played right, as well as long distance damage. I gotta think about this.

For now 50-50

 

[MK26]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc6lYB1al88&fmt=18

That's your sister?

(No, the rest of the post is not important)
Btw how does Peach's f-smash work?

Yeah, I'm starting to agree with 50-50

Now I know this matchup fits two Kirby stereotypes:
1) Gay b-air camping
2) High ceilings and short side blastzones are good

Any more?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Not really my sister but I call her big sister cause she kinda is one to me. and she is older than me by and a week and a half.

As for Peach Fsmash. If they use is as a spacing tool, it will be hard to hit her, cause even if you shield it, the force will push you back. And you can't punish her for it nether. But here is the bright side for you guys. It will be week cause I am using it alot. so you won't die that easy, unless I sweet spot tennis and golf club.

And I can't think of any stereo types right now, those 2 are good.

 

[MK26]

Peach stays at 50-50

Week 19: Samus. Not MK.

This character does not deserve an image.[ /img]

[SIZE="3"]Zero Suit Samus[/SIZE]

This character does deserve a caption.[/color]
[COLOR="yellow"]Difficulty rating: 50-50[/COLOR][/center]

Week 19 will be dedicated to Samus, in her various forms. No, not Birthday Suit Samus.​

 

[Lord Viper]

Since I only played two good Zero Suit Samus mains in my life, I can't really say what the match up is. I'll play more Zero Suit Samus main's to see how the pink puff can deal with her or not.

 

[MK26]

Oh, and before anyone asks, you'll have to hijack the thread if you want to change the topic to Meta Knight

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I think this matchup is 6/4 in zss' favor. She pretty much outranges Kirby in every way. She is able to out space his aerials if used right. Kirby cant do any grab combos on zss because she can down b out of everyone. The only thing Kirby really has going on her is utilt and bair. But the bair is counterable. she can grab Kirby out of his SH. She can punish Kirby's rolls very well if they do that. Basically Kirby cant approach zss, air or ground, easily. He cant do really do anything when zss is under her (where she has the advantage) except down b which is usually punishable (to Kirby) if timed right.

All I basically do is let them attempt to approach me. Then run back and pivot dsmash. If they approach from the air my uair will hit them almost instantly. (I time it right so that they dont bair me) Kirby cant touch zss with dair if used when they're both in the air (maybe as a spotdodge punisher but that's it) because her uair can go through it. zss' recovery is pretty fast and efficient so it's hard for kirby to edgeguard her as she has many options to recover depending on what the opponent is doing.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Whao whoa whoa, I think 6/4 is a little too much. How many offline Kirby's have you played. =P

I know Zero Suit Samus has great range and all, but you have to remember that she doesn't have too many effective killing moves till your like on... 110ish or so on. Zero Suit Samus can be eaisly edge garded like Olimar but a little harder because she has the Space Jump. Even if I played two of my friends that was really good with Zero Suit Samus, they still have a hard time playing my Kirby because his air game is far suprior than her's, she has better ground game, but again, who many attack's that she has that can be eaisly blocked and/or not kill you unless your at a good percent, I can think of three ground attacks, F-Smash, Side-B, and Down-B on the ground, in the air, her U-Air is a great killing move, but hard to lay on though. I will idmit, she has a great start because she can chuge part's of her suit at you, but let's not forget that Kirby can just eat them if you throw them without thinking. Though her U-Smash > Up-B is great combo for Kirby I'll also say. But let's not forget that Kirby can Stone her when she's comming back, can gimp her to the point that even if you use Down-B > Up-B, she will be too far to reach most of the game's edges. So yea, saying 60-40 Zero Suit Samus favor is not what I will approve of. I will say a number when I play more people that main her. ☆

 

[kirbz]

I would agree that Kirby > Snake

Hence my sig

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[ph00tbag]

☆ I know Zero Suit Samus has great range and all, but you have to remember that she doesn't have too many effective killing moves till your like on... 110ish or so on.

Careful there, sonny. Those moves might be KOing in that range on some middleweights, but Kirby's a light little sucker. These things can KO at around 90-100% fresh, and at around 30% of damage per dsmash combo, ZSS will get you there very quickly if you're not careful.

Zero Suit Samus can be eaisly edge garded like Olimar but a little harder because she has the Space Jump.

Not to mention a higher second jump, which can be boosted with Plasma Wire. Edgeguarding ZSS is hard, and if you're not having trouble, then your friends need to learn how to recover. They may also need to learn how to DI.

You're also forgetting that ZSS has many options for edgeguarding Kirby. She can interrupt Final Cutter with both dsmash and Plasma Whip in complete safety, and she can pressure both away from and on the ledge, so Kirby will have to fight to get back no less than ZSS does.

Even if I played two of my friends that was really good with Zero Suit Samus, they still have a hard time playing my Kirby because his air game is far suprior than her's,

More like equal. In fact, your statements are in direct contrast to Spec's, so you'd better back it up. He can beat Kirby's air game with ZSS's, so there's obviously a problem of interpretation here. Personally, I'd be inclined to go 50-50 here, if that. ZSS out ranges Kirby in the air, and is more mobile overall.

she has better ground game, but again, who many attack's that she has that can be eaisly blocked and/or not kill you unless your at a good percent, I can think of three ground attacks, F-Smash, Side-B, and Down-B on the ground, in the air, her U-Air is a great killing move, but hard to lay on though.

If your friends are using Fsmash, they're either messing up, or they really shouldn't be your basis for a match-up discussion. If they're really spamming Flip Jump on the ground, I have the same thing to say. If they're using Plasma Whip against ground approaches, then they still have some work to do.

I will idmit, she has a great start because she can chuge part's of her suit at you, but let's not forget that Kirby can just eat them if you throw them without thinking.

I'll just throw another one, and it can hit you in the swallow animation. Then, I'll pick up the last one and approach. I don't really like having all three anyway.

Though her U-Smash > Up-B is great combo for Kirby I'll also say. But let's not forget that Kirby can Stone her when she's comming back, can gimp her to the point that even if you use Down-B > Up-B, she will be too far to reach most of the game's edges. ☆

That's all well and good if you can get her to recover low. Most ZSSes will avoid that.

I'd say you're forgetting what a 6/4 match-up is. It means it's quite winnable for the disadvantaged character, they just have to make fewer mistakes. The whole point here is, ZSS will suffer less for her mistakes than Kirby, and it's slightly easier for Kirby to make a mistake. A 6/4 match-up is nothing bad. It's perfectly manageable, and I can assure you no one will pick ZSS as a counter for Kirby, because frankly the chances are only slightly better than even.

 

[momochuu]

....I hate this matchup. Especially against ZSS's that know how gay her Side B (Plasma Whip) is...-_-

60-40

Just too much range.

 

[§leepy God]

I'll help you fight more good Zamus mains Viper because I know a lot of them, of course I mean offline. Because the way you played two of your friends made it look like 90-10 Kirby's favor. XD

 

[Asdioh]

Hence my sig

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Mine's better :] It's the original!


As for ZSS...I beat one in a tourney round 1 this weekend, but he wasn't exactly outstanding (he didn't seem to have much experience AT ALL...he didn't know what a Kirbycide is) so I can't use it to judge.

60-40 sounds believable to me. I haven't played a great ZSS offline so I can't really contribute :/

Side B is lame.

Kirby with ZSS's power = plasma gun -> Fsmash = OWNED

Careful when trying to gimp ZSS offstage, because her Down B kick spikes and even though it's a "sex kick" it's just as powerful (right?) after it's been out for a second as it is when it first comes out. -_-

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

☆ Whao whoa whoa, I think 6/4 is a little too much. How many offline Kirby's have you played. =P

☆

The only good offline kirby I've played is Jamaal A.K.A Blob. he's really good with him (beat korrrn in a mm btw) at first I couldnt beat him but since were friends irl I play him all the time and realized how I could adapt and now I beat him the majority of the time. zss is just better thank Kirby here. However this is one of those matchups that if you dont actually KNOW what to do, you mightl lose for zss.

Mine's better :] It's the original!

Careful when trying to gimp ZSS offstage, because her Down B kick spikes and even though it's a "sex kick" it's just as powerful (right?) after it's been out for a second as it is when it first comes out. -_-

The first frames of the kick (while it's coming out) can spike, afterwards if it connects it will send them the direction it is pointing. It does 12%. If initiated in the air it does 12% for the starting frames and 9% for the remainder.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Wow, four out of one people say the match up's in Zero Suit Samus favor, I really do need to play more Zero Suit Samus mains. O_o

I'm going to a few tourney's this week, maybe I'll run into some good Zamus mainers there, I'll see how much work I got to do with Kirby to win. ☆

 

[cba]

I'll help you fight more good Zamus mains Viper because I know a lot of them, of course I mean offline. Because the way you played two of your friends made it look like 90-10 Kirby's favor. XD

Lol yea.
i have played only 1 good kirby...and it was online, nevertheless, its in ZSS' favor.
kirbys only option from far away is up-b. ZSS has a great ground game and aerial as well.

 

[IC3R]

I've played Kirby vs. Zamus maybe once before, but I've done it the other way around many times. I know her D-Smash and Stun Shot ruin a lot of Kirby's approaches (because he has to, or nothing will happen), and some options when he's on the ledge: He ledgehops, stunned. He drops and jumps, stunned. He rolls, stunned. If he Ledge Attacks, she can shield. Her OoS game is mostly garbage, though I recall pulling off OoS Jab > D-Tilt > N/F/Uair several times. If the Zamus is bold enough, she can just start her Flip Jump a little away from the edge, and stick her foot out at the apex of her jump: If Kirby ledgehops, spiked. If Kirby hangs, stagespiked. If he ledgerolls, smacked hard. If he Ledge Attacks (lolwut?), smacked.

Vs. Zamus, Kirby definitely wants to steal her frickin laser. Even a split-second of stun means an easy aerial or a Smash.
Theoretic combo: F-Throw -> Stun Shot -> Hyphen-Smash


I have to agree that Kirby has a difficult time with Zamus overall. Zamus has a 1-frame Jab she can capitilize on by simply smacking our favorite little puffball silly, running away with the fourth-fastest dash speed in Brawl ><, and spacing with Plasma Whip; or she can link the Jab into a D-tilt, U-Tilt, or an angled F-Tilt, and go from there. Her Flip Jump is too good, as it allows her to get away from Kirby quickly, and she can punish someone silly enough to chase her by whacking them with her Space Kick. It's mostly her range that will down Kirby quickly.

It looks like Kirby is going to has to play defense when fighting Zamus. Just bait and punish. You can fake an attack by ShortHopping towards her and airdodging (DI down and backwards), landing, and reacting according to Zamus' action. Like if she jumps and try to nail you with an aerial, hit her with a U-Tilt/Smash...Utilizing his quick Tilts, dodge and rolls will be the key to his victory. You definitely want to use Inhale when the situation calls for it; stealing her laser or just being able to Starshot Stagespike her would be enough (just be sure you Bair her for good measure, so she doesn't get you with her Plasma Wire or JFK FJK). USE HER LASER AGAINST HER!!!!!!!

Heck, Kirby's crouch can save you from stupid crap like her Grab and maybe even Plasma Whip! (Would someone test this? Please and thank you.)



Once I play more Kirby vs. Zamus, I'll have more input. Until then...

IMO, (ZSS) 60-63 :: 40-37 (Kirby) Sorry, little guy

 

[Asdioh]

FJK

Foot Jump Kill?


As for crouching...I'm almost positive you can't duck under her Side B.

Not sure about her Fsmash...probably her ftilt (unless it's angled downward...what does her ftilt look like again >_> it's just a generic kick that you can angle up/down or not at all, right?)
You can probably duck under her jab, which is really useful.

She's hard to combo.

60-40 again sounds believable to me, but above that I'm starting to get scared D:

poor Kirby...I truly believe his matchup rankings will go down as more people learn how to deal with him. He's good, but if people know what to expect, he's pretty easy to beat.

Hell, since I main Kirby and know almost everything there is to know about him, I would WANT to get matched up against Kirby if I were using my other characters (except maybe Falcon >_>) because he's so easy to read.

 

[IC3R]

Foot Jump Kill?

Flip Jump Kick?

As for crouching...I'm almost positive you can't duck under her Side B.

Not sure about her Fsmash...probably her ftilt (unless it's angled downward...what does her ftilt look like again >_> it's just a generic kick that you can angle up/down or not at all, right?)
You can probably duck under her jab, which is really useful.

Except her jab is OVER 9000!!!! times faster than his crouch.

She's hard to combo.

This is why you need her laser, so you can stun her long enough to hit her with something decent.

60-40 again sounds believable to me, but above that I'm starting to get scared D:

poor Kirby...I truly believe his matchup rankings will go down as more people learn how to deal with him. He's good, but if people know what to expect, he's pretty easy to beat.

Hell, since I main Kirby and know almost everything there is to know about him, I would WANT to get matched up against Kirby if I were using my other characters (except maybe Falcon >_>) because he's so easy to read.

I hope we can come up with some tricks so Kirby can stay in his well-deserved C Tier

 

[Lord Viper]

And ^that^ is why Kirby is only Mid Tier

☆ Umm... Kirby's High Tier. XD

Anyways, until tomorrow when I meet Sleepy's gang of frends that main Zamus, I'll say even at best. ☆

 

[IC3R]

☆ Umm... Kirby's High Tier. XD

Hmm...

He's #13 out of 37 characters, so yeah. I guess he is High Tier

 

[cba]

if the ZSS jumps to Plasme whip (side b) kirby Could in some cases Duck.

 

[MK26]

You can duck under the non-sweetspot of the Side-B, but not the sweetspot

Questions for the ZSSes: How does a ZSS camp? What will you do if we just...dont approach? And what attacks does ZSS use for gimping, edgeguarding, killing, damage racking, etc.?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Kirby is not high tier, moar like high mid or mid high (whatever lol)....not high. There's a difference

 

[SheerMadness]

ZSS is definitely a *****. Probably the only matchup in the game I'd consider switching chars for.

40-60 is probably accurate

 

[fromundaman]

What people have said so far seems accurate. I haven't really played many good ZSS's, but I enjoy playing her (I've been experimenting with her/trying to pick her up) lately and 60-40 seems accurate. Both can kill each other fairly easily, though Kirby probably has an easier time of this due to the fact that ZSS is so insanely light, and that as hard as ZSS is to gimp, she's still easier than Kirby in most cases (Getting hit by a DownB spike could wreck Kirby though).
ZSS seems to outrange Kirby in general, though I *thought* Kirby's Bair outranged most of her aerials. I don't know... Other than Iskascribble, my friends tend not to have very good spacing.
ZSS combos Kirby easier than Kirby combos ZSS, and I believe she cancels momentum much more easily than Kirby.


Oh and MK26, for the MK matchup, you could just tell anyone who wants it to look in the MK Matchup guide. Theirs is pretty accurate.

 

[DFat2]

Kirby is not high tier, moar like high mid or mid high (whatever lol)....not high. There's a difference

I'd say Mid High. It's not that he's bad, he just has a lot of bad match ups.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

You can duck under the non-sweetspot of the Side-B, but not the sweetspot

Questions for the ZSSes: How does a ZSS camp? What will you do if we just...dont approach? And what attacks does ZSS use for gimping, edgeguarding, killing, damage racking, etc.?

Idk if I'd call it "camping." I'd call it "Extreme spacing." Since we dont have any attacks that go further than mid-range you cant really call it camping. For gimping it depends on the character. the only attack I really edgeguard with is side b and sometimes a RAR'd bair if the situation calls for it. kirby seems somewhat able to be edgeguarded with side b if they dont see it coming because they always mistake the range and how much it stays out for.

for killing moves and stuff, check the guides.

And if you dont approach then I guess there wont be a fun match
I've never seen a kirby that doesnt approach. I mean they cant do anything else to fight right?

 

[Percon]

yeah, ZSS has the advantage.

She can flip kick out of grab combos and she outranges us. Also, hard to gimp. 1 frame jab is nasty sometimes too.

If you see the flip kicks coming you can chase, however. Kirby does well if he can get into her range/behind her but if the plays a tight zoning game that will be difficult.

BTW at the start of the match just jump a lot and try and get ZSS to waste her armor pieces. Good ones will see through this but it's still worth a shot since they only last so long anyway.

 

[MK26]

I'm seriously considering canceling the ZSS discussion and getting started on Ganondorf.
Dead serious.

As for ZSS, we basically have a consensus on the matchup...now we just need stage countericks.

EDIT: good idea speculosity
CP japes, yi brawl, orpheon, or lylat
Ban PS1
Stage strike Battlefield
Avoid norfair

Good attacks
Armour pieces
Jab-cancel into tilts
D-smash
Side-B (killer)
Down-B (spike/recovery)
U-air
B-air?
U-smash?
U-tilt?

Confirmation?

 

[A1lion835]

Hm... Icicle Mountain because it has no edges, but Zamus is less hampered by that than Olimar...

 

[Asdioh]

ZSS is definitely a *****. Probably the only matchup in the game I'd consider switching chars for.

40-60 is probably accurate

What about Marth? Do you seriously think Marth is any easier than ZSS? Have you played good Marths offline @_@

I'm seriously considering canceling the ZSS discussion and getting started on Ganondorf.
Dead serious.

Ganondorf discussion: I can probably 3-stock the best Ganondorf in the world.

Not really, but he IS ridiculously easy for Kirby to beat. I'd say Kirby has an easier time against Ganondorf than say, Metaknight. Kirby just ooooowns him.

Don't get hit though. He can kill you in like 5 moves, sometimes less, depending on the stage @_@