Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

[Firus]

Come to think of it, does Phantom Hourglass seem like Wind Waker's Majora's Mask? It's based in a possibly parallel ocean to that featured in Wind Waker, potentially over a flooded Termina. The antagonist, Bellum, is extremely similar to Majora, being a corrupting fiend (with way-too-similar eyes) that

Spoiler

takes over Linebeck, just as Majora controlled Skull Kid, to do its evil deeds

.

You know, it's actually really funny that you mention that. A few days ago, a friend of mine was telling me about how he thought the maps for PH and MM were parallel. Let me find the AIM Log...

Since Majora's world is an alternate dimension to Hyrule, and the only dimension randomly connected to Hyrule we've seen (not the Dark World or the Sacred Realm--those are different)
So since Hourglass is in a different dimension from WW, it makes sense to be in Majoraland.
http://www.zeldaho.net/images/games/majoras_mask/map.jpg Look here. It isn't TOTALLY consistent. But the snowy place...if you were to turn the image 90 degrees, is pretty much in the same spot relative to the snow island with the goron island!
As Phoenix Wright has taught us, this is MORE than enough evidence to make my case! :D

Certainly more thinking than I'd have done on the topic, but it's a pretty interesting theory. Thoughts?

 

[Darkslash]

Also, plenty of cheap tricks, like the fishing rod trick on the sword fight.

Possibly its a shred of Ganondorf's childhood showing. You live in a place where its desert and you can see a big lake at the other side. I mean wouldn't you want to go down there and fish?

I also think that Lake Hyilia drained a bit. The Bridge is too high up for the current level and the basin width is also wide and higher than the bridge. The canons where the Jelly are also makes me think that it was following with water as well.

 

[c3gill]

A) From up abovein this thread, the Hylians and the Sheikah are 2 races. The Idea is that the Sheikah are a much more pure of blood race, where the Hylians have some Sheikah, but are more of common blood. Zelda's alter ego is more than likely her revealing that the Hyrule ruling family is a family of pure blooded Sheikah. As it is the job of the Sheikah to protect the royal family, it would make sense if the ruling family was one of their own- or possibly even Royalty among the Sheikah?

Hylians are supposed to have magic infused blood. Could this possibly be from the Hylians mixing blood with the Sheikah? The Sheikah are undoubtable a very unique race. They could have possibly have been the ancestors of the present Hyrulians (or other races as well- the Twili, and The "Dark Interlopers" of special note).

B) Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to WW, as MM was to OoT. Not in the sense of different dimensions, although it is implied at the end of PH that it was all a dream. HOWEVER! if you note that link still has the empty hourglass, you will know that it was not a dream. Also, you can see Linebecks ship out on the sea. While it does sound pitiful, they very well may have used the same map system- but there was no "different dimention", as there was in MM.

 

[Spire]

The second great Deku tree only grows in Adult Link's timeline, which is Wind Waker's games.

It begins to grow after you clear the Forest Temple of evil in OoT as adult Link, Link never planted any seeds or anything.

Yeah, I recognized that the tree sprouts when you're Adult Link, but grows once you've purged the forest of evil by beating Phantom Ganon in the Forest Temple. Just never got around to editing my post, but thanks for clarifying it for everyone

You know, it's actually really funny that you mention that. A few days ago, a friend of mine was telling me about how he thought the maps for PH and MM were parallel. Let me find the AIM Log...

Certainly more thinking than I'd have done on the topic, but it's a pretty interesting theory. Thoughts?

Heh, it's neat how the same ideas spark from different sources.

Possibly its a shred of Ganondorf's childhood showing. You live in a place where its desert and you can see a big lake at the other side. I mean wouldn't you want to go down there and fish?

I also think that Lake Hyilia drained a bit. The Bridge is too high up for the current level and the basin width is also wide and higher than the bridge. The canons where the Jelly are also makes me think that it was following with water as well.

Yeah, Hylia had to have drained a lot. It is obvious that its support columns reached to the floor, far below. Perhaps however, the bridge was built after it had drained, and it must have been built at the same time as the Bridge of Eldin, as they resemble one another architecturally. Perhaps the submerged stone foundations in Lake Hylia in OoT was really the beginning of Hylia's Bridge.

Obviously a lot of expansion occurred between OoT and TP. The Snowpeak Mansion was built (presumably as a potential military garrison for the Hylian army, as it featured many suits of armor, weapons, and canons). What was its purpose? When did the Hylians discover Snowpeak and venture into it? Why did they build a mansion so far removed from any other civilization? Where did the Yeti come from (it's a shame that Nintendo couldn't come up with a more original name for them)?

So many questions to be asked, and to hopefully be answered.

Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to WW, as MM was to OoT. Not in the sense of different dimensions, although it is implied at the end of PH that it was all a dream. HOWEVER! if you note that link still has the empty hourglass, you will know that it was not a dream. Also, you can see Linebecks ship out on the sea. While it does sound pitiful, they very well may have used the same map system- but there was no "different dimention", as there was in MM.

What's with all these boat-adventures and ending up being dreams? Link's Awakening and Phantom Hourglass share this trait. But is there a third dream game? Perhaps so. I've proposed a theory before, that I suppose I'll copypasta here for the sake of not rewriting it:

Majora's Mask was all a dream?​

The events of Majora's Mask were all a dream. Call me crazy, but here's my thesis as to why it is.

In your dreams, you actually play the role of everyone and everything. In Termina (a distorted Hyrule), Link sees everyone he knew from Hyrule, but in different roles (as people you know in real life play very different roles often in your dreams), yet he also encountered entirely new people. Touching back to the "you are everyone in your dream", Link directly supports this statement, well, with the most important people. Link assumes control of and becomes the Deku Butler's son, Darmani, Mikau, and then some bizarre Deity. If Termina is merely Link's cerebral interpretation of Hyrule (which would be rather accurate, seeing as how the Hylians, Deku, Goron, Zora, Gerudo, the absence of the Sheikah, etc, are all present in semi-accurately placed locations), then of course he would do whatever he can mentally (and pseudo-realistically) to complete the task of obliterating Majora's Mask.

Majora's Mask. Seeing as how Majora's Mask is the Terminian counterpart of Hyrule's Fused Shadow (and remember, the events I am chronicling take place before Twilight Princess), then perhaps while the war surrounding The Fused Shadow, its dark creators, and their banishment to the Twilight Realm takes place in Hyrule, Link is currently deep in The Lost Woods, away from harm (remember, he is seen there at the beginning and the end of Majora's Mask) dreaming of all that is happening in Hyrule, but in a distorted reality. Meanwhile, Ganondorf begins his attack on Hyrule, but is stopped by the country's forces and is banished to the Twilight Realm.

In the end of Twilight Princess, Ganondorf mentions that The Fused Shadow is "old magic", so obviously he has seen, experienced, or used it in some way or another in the past (meaning in or around the events of Ocarina of Time). SO, perhaps he was going to use the Fused Shadow to corrupt and usurp Hyrule, but as he was stopped, so was The Fused Shadow destroyed (as Skull Kid was stopped, so was Majora's Mask destroyed, and Termina saved from the cataclysmic Moon; Hyrule was saved from the cataclysmic disaster that Ganondorf and his [found] Mask would ensue).

So that brings us to the origins of The Fused Shadow. Obviously, it was created by someone in Hyrule. Majora's Mask was created by the dreamt interpretations of whoever The Fused Shadow's creators were. Link had never known them, but made some associations with the Fused Shadow and the Sheikah of Kakariko. He revised that connection in the form of Ikana Canyon, its graveyard and well (those which he visited in Hyrule), the [un]dead residents there (which he also encountered), and the horrid Temple that he triumphed. Perhaps Link had never seen The Fused Shadow in his Hyrulean adventure, but within his dream, created a substitute for what was actually happening in Hyrule -- a rather psychic (he is the chosen one) thing.

Either all of that, OR, his Terminian dream was simply a distorted interpretation of his "Ocarina of Time" adventure.

 

[Vorguen]

I seriously doubt Majora's Mask was a dream. If it was, we would have known. Ultimately Majora's Mask is what the writers wanted it to be and if they wanted it to be a dream it would have been clear. Not that your interpretation on it doesn't make sense, just that it's a little far-off.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Ganondorf had never seen Majora's Mask OR the fused Shadow, so when he was referring to it as "Old Magic" I think he just literally meant it's old magic...as in created in ancient times.

The begging of Ganondorf's story happens in OoT, and the in the LOZ Canon in this timeline, Ganondorf is punished in the past before he ever rises up or anything.

 

[Spire]

Ganondorf had never seen Majora's Mask OR the fused Shadow, so when he was referring to it as "Old Magic" I think he just literally meant it's old magic...as in created in ancient times.

The begging of Ganondorf's story happens in OoT, and the in the LOZ Canon in this timeline, Ganondorf is punished in the past before he ever rises up or anything.

How do we know that Ganondorf had never seen the Fused Shadow before? It is entirely possible that the conflict surrounding the Fused Shadow took place prior to OoT, and Ganondorf may very well have been part of that, seeing as how he's about 30 years old at the time of OoT. Perhaps he was involved with the banishment of the "dark interlopers" (obviously some of the Sheikah) - perhaps, even, he set them up with the Fused Shadow, testing to see if it had the power to obtain the Triforce. It failed of course, and upon their banishment as his scapegoats, he began to devise another plan, that which involved the Master Sword.

All speculation of course.

Ganondorf's story does not begin in OoT, Link's does. Ganondorf was alive for years before OoT began, old enough to lay waste to Hyrule, shown in the dream that Link has of a burning land when he was a child, taken to the Great Deku Tree by his dying mother. But back to Ganondorf. After Link is sent back to being a child at the end of OoT, he runs off to Termina, but Ganondorf is taken to be executed at the Spirit Temple/Arbiter's Grounds where he fluked the execution, kills the Water Sage (not Ruto, because none of the sages from OoT, sans Rauru, had awoken as Sages yet, and potentially never would), and is then banished to the Twilight Realm. This event happens simultaneously with Link's adventure in Termina (be it real or cerebral), so enough time had to have happened between then and when the dark interlopers were banished to the Twilight Realm to become the Twili.

Let's establish a means of measuring history in years. How about "BHW" (Before Hyrulean Civil War) and "AHW" (After Hyrulean Civil War). 0 BHW is year one, based ten years before OoT. OoT's events begin in 10 AHW, with Ganon's defeat in 17 AHW. So let's establish a potential timeline:

0 BHW - The Hyrulean Civil War. A war between the races of Hyrule in which the Dark Interlopers tried to obtain the Triforce using the Fused Shadow. They were banished, and Ganondorf began to assume dominion, but in false loyalty to the King of Hyrule. Link is born, but parents are killed.

10 AHW (I) - The Ocarina of Time Pt. I. Link rises as a young hero and upon collecting the spiritual stones, draws the Master Sword, but consequently opens a door to the Sacred Realm, which Ganondorf enters and disperses the Triforce, obtaining the Triforce of Power, to which the other two pieces go to Link and Zelda. Imprisoning War begins.

17 AHW (I) - The Ocarina of Time Pt. II. Link awakens seven years later to a dark Hyrule. The Imprisoning War comes to a closure as Ganondorf assumes complete control of the land. The six sages are awakened and Link and Zelda defeat Ganon. Link is sent back in time seven years.

10 AHW (II) - Majora's Mask. Link has defeated Ganon and has been sent seven years back. The Imprisoning War never happened (so all ties to ALttP from this timeline are cut). Ganon is revealed to be a threat so he is sealed away in the Twilight Realm after surpassing execution and killing the Sage of Water. Navi leaves Link, and so he ventures off to find her, finding himself in a completely new world, Termina. This adventure takes a total of three days and Link vanquishes Majora, saving the world of Termina from a cataclysmic end as its moon plunges into the planet. Link returns to Hyrule.

Approx. 50 AHW (I) - The Great Flood. Hyrule has been flooded as Ganon returned to thwart it only to discover that no hero appeared to counter him. The Goddesses flood Hyrule to seal Ganon away, and the denizens of Hyrule move to the mountaintops to settle their new lives.

Approx. 100 AHW (I) - The Wind Waker. A new Link awakens on Outset Island in the newly formed "Great Sea", a watery blanket over the once thriving Kingdom of Hyrule. Ganon has returned in the form of Ganondorf, but Link and Zelda (Tetra) stop him once again.

Approx. 102 AHW (I) - Phantom Hourglass. Link, Tetra, and crew discover a new sea in search of new land. A new threat arises as Tetra is captured, and so must Link set out on a ship of his own with fellow swashbuckler Linebeck. Together, they bring down Phantom Bellum.

Approx. 100 AHW (II) - Twilight Princess. Another Link surfaces in the still-intact Hyrule a century after Ganondorf had been sealed away in the Twilight Realm. A new, shadowy figure, Zant, spreads a blanket of Twilight across Hyrule, converting it into an infinitely dark realm. Ganondorf turns out to be the mastermind of this and is eventually defeated by Link and Zelda.

and so I resign for the night...

 

[c3gill]

Your timeline is obviously correct- but i think the issue is the relevence of the Fused Shadow. I dont see it as the Hyrule counterpart to Majora's Mask- no way.

While the fused shadow may have some power, they are pale in comparison to Majora's Mask. there is one BIG reason for this- the fused shadow needs someone to use them. The mask, on the otherhand, discarded skull kid after he has served its purpose- and continued on its own! The mask has a mind of its own. While the broken fused shadow parts may have corrupted the individuals that possessed them, I dont believe that they were intentionally doing this- it just their nature. Majora, however, has its own personality. Majora is insane, as it says all it wants to do is play pranks on people, and one of those pranks is killing everyone in Termina.

Another small issue- Fierce Deity's Mask. If everything in termina is a counter to something or someone in hyrule, who or what is fierce deity? The game tells us the mask houses some Dark Power that rivals Majora's- which means that Fierce deity isnt either the Triforce or Link.

If what you are suggesting is true, then because Fierce Deity is undoubtably more powerful than Majora's Mask, there must be some item of Dark Power much more powerful than the Fused Shadow in Hyrule.

 

[Darkslash]

Which is what I hope the new Zelda game will reveal. If Miyamoto tells the truth of the Master Document then they thought of this as well.

The Fierce Deity(Fierce God for any one who still hasn't figured out the name) is the opposite of the Master Sword. The Master Sword is the bane of evil. Only those of a pure heart can touch it's hilt or face the consequences. Where as Fierce Deity is more evil than Majora.

 

[Anth0ny]

Which is what I hope the new Zelda game will reveal. If Miyamoto tells the truth of the Master Document then they thought of this as well.

The Fierce Deity(Fierce God for any one who still hasn't figured out the name) is the opposite of the Master Sword. The Master Sword is the bane of evil. Only those of a pure heart can touch it's hiltor face the consequences. Where as Fierce Deity is more evil than Majora.

I lol'd at that vid.

I really hope Fierce Deity makes an appearance in a future Zelda game. We could get an awesome, dark story out of it, like Majora's Mask.

 

[Ochobobo]

Which is what I hope the new Zelda game will reveal. If Miyamoto tells the truth of the Master Document then they thought of this as well.

If you're counting the Oracle games as 2 separate games, and Four Swords for GBA's LttP as its own game, then the next will be the 15th Zelda game (excluding the 3 CD-i games, lol).

Maybe that will be enough of a landmark to reveal some of the secrets within this alleged Master Document.

 

[Skrah]

Too many time paradoxes.

If Ganondorf had a previous criminal record before OoT, then why would the Hylian king receive him in his court?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You know the fortune teller in Twilight Princess?

I just realized what her "magic spells" mean.

"Wait... loading screen takes awhile"
"What am I talking about"

EDIT: by the way, does anyone know how to get the treasure chest on the south side of castle town? The one in the fountain area that's just barely too high to reach?

 

[XACE-K]

EDIT: by the way, does anyone know how to get the treasure chest on the south side of castle town? The one in the fountain area that's just barely too high to reach?

Even to this day, I still have no clue how to get. I tried every single too and I still can't get it.

 

[~Simple~]

You know the fortune teller in Twilight Princess?

I just realized what her "magic spells" mean.

"Wait... loading screen takes awhile"
"What am I talking about"

EDIT: by the way, does anyone know how to get the treasure chest on the south side of castle town? The one in the fountain area that's just barely too high to reach?

South side? Can you be more detailed, there's a lot of tresure chest south of the castle.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

There is a treasure chest immediately south of castle town that is on a pedistal surround by a small pool of water, directly in the middle of the staiway that leads into castle town.

I have no idea how to get that chest. I also know it can not have a heart piece in it because I have all the heart pieces, but I really want to open that chest just because I want to know how the puzzle for that chest works.

 

[Spire]

If what you are suggesting is true, then because Fierce Deity is undoubtably more powerful than Majora's Mask, there must be some item of Dark Power much more powerful than the Fused Shadow in Hyrule.

Ganon is darker and more powerful than the Fused Shadow

The Fierce Deity(Fierce God for any one who still hasn't figured out the name) is the opposite of the Master Sword. The Master Sword is the bane of evil. Only those of a pure heart can touch it's hilt or face the consequences. Where as Fierce Deity is more evil than Majora.

Very good point. I had not thought of it this way before.

Too many time paradoxes.

If Ganondorf had a previous criminal record before OoT, then why would the Hylian king receive him in his court?

No, his criminality was not identified until he deceived the King (after bowing allegiance in OoT) by usurping him with the Trifoce of Power, and further corrupting Hyrule. That was his first recognized crime.

EDIT: by the way, does anyone know how to get the treasure chest on the south side of castle town? The one in the fountain area that's just barely too high to reach?

If I recall correctly, it involves the double clawshot and the spinner. I think you clawshot up to one of the towers, then as Wolf Link, walk across a tightrope, then make your way around the castle wall, and off a jutting stone ledge with the spinner to land on the elevated platform in the fountain. This is all from memory, but I think it's fairly accurate, as that was the last treasure chest I remember collecting.

 

[~Simple~]

If I recall correctly, it involves the double clawshot and the spinner. I think you clawshot up to one of the towers, then as Wolf Link, walk across a tightrope, then make your way around the castle wall, and off a jutting stone ledge with the spinner to land on the elevated platform in the fountain. This is all from memory, but I think it's fairly accurate, as that was the last treasure chest I remember collecting.

Yeah I'm pretty sure thats how you get it. I think I remeber that it held an orange rupee. All that confusion just for some extra rupees

 

[Spire]

Yeah I'm pretty sure thats how you get it. I think I remeber that it held an orange rupee. All that confusion just for some extra rupees

And of course I did not have the room in my wallet for it, so I had to put it back. Good. It deserves to stay there so I've another reason to tackle that obstacle course again (really, it was fun).

So I've a new little topic. What is your favorite "obstacle course" moment in Zelda?

Mine would have to be in TP, where you use the spinner in that canyon east of Hyrule Castle to jump from wall to wall, picking up more and more speed to finally reach a chest in a wall alcove. That was so awesome.

 

[Darkslash]

Mine would have to be in TP, where you use the spinner in that canyon east of Hyrule Castle to jump from wall to wall, picking up more and more speed to finally reach a chest in a wall alcove. That was so awesome.

Took me quite a while to get that. It was also the last non dungeon heart piece I needed.

 

[~Simple~]

My favorite is the City in the Sky boss, it's so cool when Link flys around by clawshoting those flying things on the boss's second stage.

 

[~Simple~]

Double post.

Anyways I think I found a timeline on a website.

 

[Spire]

Double post.

Anyways I think I found a timeline on a website.

That's neither a chronological (by game release date), or "historical" (in Zelda terms) timeline. The Minish Cap sprite was not released before OoT, and all the sprites before that do not take place before OoT "historically" either.

 

[Skrah]

Its sort of the "evolution" of Link. Order's wrong btw.

 

[Darkslash]

I think it goes from Sprite to 3D model. But that's no time line. Spire's time line is the most accurate one I seen.

 

[hectichobo]

Looks like he just got better looking... i meen look at his face in OOT vs. WW and TP.. Man he is a good looking dude now! If we could just do something about those ears...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

And of course I did not have the room in my wallet for it, so I had to put it back. Good. It deserves to stay there so I've another reason to tackle that obstacle course again (really, it was fun).

So I've a new little topic. What is your favorite "obstacle course" moment in Zelda?

Mine would have to be in TP, where you use the spinner in that canyon east of Hyrule Castle to jump from wall to wall, picking up more and more speed to finally reach a chest in a wall alcove. That was so awesome.

Thanks for the tip!

My favorite would have to be the boss battle in Gerudo prison with the spinner.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

My favorite obstacle in TP is smashing everything in my path with the ball and chain! Ice Temple FTW!

 

[Skrah]

The snowboard course to get to the Yeti's Mansion.

 

[Darkslash]

The snowboard course to get to the Yeti's Mansion.

This was possibly the best way to get a heart piece. No other method made my heart beat so fast. Yet it was funny when you spin attack Yeta.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

This was possibly the best way to get a heart piece. No other method made my heart beat so fast. Yet it was funny when you spin attack Yeta.

You could do that on a snowboard???

 

[Skrah]

LOL yeah. You could take out your sword and swing it around, and do a spin attack.

 

[Scott!]

Snowboard combat was just about the greatest thing ever, after the ball and chain. Too bad there weren't any actual fights like that. That would have been too epic, probably.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I also enjoyed the puzzles involving the Double Clawshot.

I had a feeling there would be double clawshots in TP...I dunno how, but I just got that impression.

When I found out it was true (Which unfortunately wasn't from getting them, I accidentally read a spoiler) I was excited to try 'em out (Though I would have liked it better if I had found them first instead of reading the spoiler. I also found out about the ball and chain from reading a spoiler...I always read the wrong things)

 

[Vorguen]

Fishing in Ocarina of Time was my all time favorite thing. Ever.

In Majora's Mask the goron race was seriously epic too.

 

[Darkslash]

Snowboard combat was just about the greatest thing ever, after the ball and chain. Too bad there weren't any actual fights like that. That would have been too epic, probably.

Oh my god imagine you get Chiflos(ice spear guys) chasing you and you clash with them in the mountain, like your escaping a avalanche. That would be the most awesomeness thing to come out of a snowy environment in Zelda.

 

[Skrah]

Lol car chase snowboard/Zelda style.

I liked the bombchu game in OoT.

 

[Scott!]

That Bombchu game was actually tricky, depending on the layout. If the second round was one of the ones off to the side, I'd always mess it up, or get it with one shot left and then hit the second cucco. So many rupees lost there....

 

[Darkslash]

I have yet to finish the Bombchu game, as as sad as it sounds, cannot find it.

P.S Shooting gallery with I.R Pointer= HAX

 

[Ochobobo]

I had a lot of fun in the STAR minigame in TP. I wish that guy could think of a harder puzzle after the double clawshots one, lol.