The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[adumbrodeus]

Sirlin has stated his opinion on the old sagat ban much more firmly on the srk forums. He even calls it "just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness" in the article.

In any case, I see what you mean by diversity.


I guess that, yes, this is actually about diversity. I didn't take it to mean that originally because, as far as I can see it, the argument is binary. On one hand, a character does not "completely dominate the entire game, to the exclusion of other characters", and on the other hand, he does. Once a character has crossed this threshold, he aught to be banned.

The focus isn't on the other characters (who are unplayable because of this character), the focus is on this character and how good he.

Argh. I can't fully explain my understanding of it because i'm sleepy.

That's a ban because something is "too good", and he explains why on the basis of character diversity in the Akuma example, because all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma.

But this isn't about being "too good", this is about what "too good" is really based on, and given a mature metagame, which again, we do not have yet for brawl (hell I doubt melee counts yet).

Really it all comes down to diversity, diversity of tactics, diversity of characters, the question is really, what is our tolerance?

 

[Espy Rose]

That's a ban because something is "too good", and he explains why on the basis of character diversity in the Akuma example, because all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma.

But this isn't about being "too good", this is about what "too good" is really based on, and given a mature metagame, which again, we do not have yet for brawl (hell I doubt melee counts yet).

Really it all comes down to diversity, diversity of tactics, diversity of characters, the question is really, what is our tolerance?

Whatever it is, it must be VERY high for competent players, and ridiculously low for pretty much everybody else.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Whatever it is, it must be VERY high for competent players, and ridiculously low for pretty much everybody else.

Lol, I think that's our tolerance for "too good", but true.

Ultimately it must be decided in a calm reasonable manner... at least 5 years from now when the meta-game is mature enough to actually judge. No panicking, no screams of, "he's too good", just calm discussion, in the back room of course.

 

[OrlanduEX]

1. yes winning is the main point of fighting games, but there can be different reasons for people wanting to win. M2K wants to win because he wants to be the best. But I want to win to prove that a. i am just as good if not better than the people that play in my area, and b. that sonic is not trash tier as some people seem to believe. you have to realise that winning with certain conditions (holding onto your pride) can be more important than doing whatever it takes (tier whoring)

That doesn't really refute my point. My post had nothing to do with people who decide to use low tier characters for a sense of achievement. All I was saying was that competitive fighting game communities generally prioritize winning over a diverse set of characters.

2. yes those 4 were the best, but you saw people win with up to 10-15 different characters. many characters including psylocke, hayato, tron bonne, doctor doom and cyclops were viable in that game. Ive even seen servbots in competitive play. yes those 4 were the best, but that didnt mean a lot of the others just couldnt complete. kinda like what MK does now.

I didn't say those characters weren't viable or didn't see play. I said that the top 4 are by far the most widely played and make the majority of the roster useless. But no one is complaining.

3.in a game with only 20 characters, having 3 that are the best really isnt all that bad. thats still more diverse than what brawl is coming to.

Third Strike is many years old. Brawl is half a year old. Who says that MK will still be dominating the metagame in 6 more months? We all thought Snake was "so broken" when Brawl came and out, then we figured out how to beat him. Even now many different characters like Falco, Wario, Marth, ROB, DDD, and even DK are doing reasonably well in tournaments. Until MK is winning every tournament unequivocably, the metagame is fine.

4. reiterating ny last refutation of your last point, yes they were the best but a jigglypuff won the last big melee tourney. Doc mario could also go toe to toe with shiek and CF was borderline high tier. yes those 4 were the best but they didnt completely invalidate every other character.

OK so a few extremely devoted players do well with low tiers. That doesn't mean that Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Marth didn't win the vast majority of Melee tournaments. And MK does not invalidate every other character. Certainly he's the most popular amoing tourney goers right now, and the most succesful, but this won't necessarily be the case even 6 months from now. And it's not like he's even winning every single tournament. Until we get to that point of no return, MK is simply the best character in the game, not the only viable one.

theres going to be a best couple of characters in every fighting game. but there is a huge difference, a HUGE DIFFERENCE between having 10 tourney viable characters out of 50 or 3 out of 20 or 4 out of 26 and having only 1 character that is really able to win out of almost 40. that means theres 40 characters in this game and TBH, only 1 can win!? thats rediculous!!

You are deluded. MK is the best character, but not the only tourney viable character. He's not winning all tournaments now and he probably won't ever. At least wait a few month.

5. competitive players believe in banning things that are too good. and most of them believe in exploiting the really good moves and tactics when in the actual tourney for the sake of winning and making the money even if they realise that its too good and for the sake of competition, it really shouldnt be used.

Competitive players ban things that erase all competition such as Akuma, not things that are "too good". As I said before, competitive players LOVE things that are "too good". As long as it doesn't make the game 1 move or 1 character, we're fine. And we simply aren't at that point yet with MK. Give the Brawl community some credit. Even now, MK is not the only one running the show. Plenty of other characters are winning tournaments. When MK is the only person winning anything (which will probably never happen), then he will be ban worthy.

6 obviously there is a second best character(s) but if we get rid of MK and instead of just MKs (and possibly snakes) in tournaments, brawl turns into melee, and theres a group of 4 to 5 characters that run tourneys, than i believe the game is better off at that point.

There are a handful of characters winning tourneys right now, not just MK. If we remove MK, then Snake will just win as much as MK does right now. And if we remove Snake, then we'll find a new "best" character who will win most tournaments. MK is not the only tourney viable character even now.

but heres my bottom line:
the neutral matchups arguement is both valid and non valid at the same time.
MK has no counters and to be honest he probably doesnt have any truly neutral matchups.
but we dont ALL know that yet. there are people saying that diddy, DK, ZSS, and snake go neutral with MK. and as long as people believe that, we cant ban MK, because that means the metagame hasnt evolved enough to show that MK handles every other character.
basically, as has been said before, lack of matchup knowledge counters everyone. once the game has been out long enough for big tourneys to have been held and once the MKs learn the matchups against Zss and diddy and everybody else, and learn to beat them so that all of the rumors of meta counters have been quelled, then, and only then, can we ban metaknight

You seem oh so willing to ban MK. You believe already that he is the "Akuma" of Brawl, but that simply hasn't proven to be the case. When MK wins every tournament and he's the only tourney viable character, then he will be ban worthy.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There are a handful of characters winning tourneys right now, not just MK. If we remove MK, then Snake will just win as much as MK does right now. And if we remove Snake, then we'll find a new "best" character who will win most tournaments. MK is not the only tourney viable character even now.

Actually, that's almost definitely not true. MK has shown a handy little ability to eliminate Snake counters from tournament play very easily. It was MK's fault that Snake was at the top of the rankings.

I'd say that Marth he has VERY few bad match-ups except MK (as of current, the Marth boards don't think there are any, and they're VERY analytical), and all are 60-40 at worst. Given the glut of characters he soft counters is probably the most likely option.

Since he doesn't really hard counter any characters except ones that are liberally hard-countered, he doesn't eliminate much in the way of tournament viability.

Would make it a fair bit more balanced of a competitive scene at the moment, but it's of course, way too early to tell if this estimate will hold.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Actually, that's almost definitely not true. MK has shown a handy little ability to eliminate Snake counters from tournament play very easily. It was MK's fault that Snake was at the top of the rankings.

I'd say that Marth he has VERY few bad match-ups except MK (as of current, the Marth boards don't think there are any, and they're VERY analytical), and all are 60-40 at worst. Given the glut of characters he soft counters is probably the most likely option.

Since he doesn't really hard counter any characters except ones that are liberally hard-countered, he doesn't eliminate much in the way of tournament viability.

Would make it a fair bit more balanced of a competitive scene at the moment, but it's of course, way too early to tell if this estimate will hold.

Snake has no hard counters and only a few soft counters. A few bad match-ups wouldn't stop him from running things in MK's absence. He wouldn't be the only one winning, just as MK isn't the only one winning right now, but it's pretty clear he would be the winningest character.

Also match-ups are definitely not the sole determining factor in a characters tourney success. As you say, Marth has few bad match ups, yet he's winning considerably less tournaments right now than DDD who has many bad match ups.

 

[Fatmanonice]

This guy knows what he's talking about. In fact, one stage was actually voted counterpick/banned the first time, but I personally called for a revote because I discovered that it did the impossible... it counterpicked Metaknight. On that alone, the stage was voted in as counterpick. Also, after talking to DSF, there may potentially be another MK counterpick stage. But we'll see if it actually works, because I've never tried it before.

And don't ask, because I'm not telling which stages I'm talking about.

A lot of people just don't really seem to either 1. understand counterpicking or 2. bother using it. Regarding the two stages you're talking about, I'm going to guess that they are Skyworld and ... *thinks about it* Mario Circuit? (Wait, is that stage legal? I don't remember all the stages in the counterpick/banned category.) Skyworld's good against a lot of people, in my opinion, including Snake, Olimar, Ike, and King Dedede. I imagine Mario Circuit would be a good stage against MK because it completely eliminates his gimping game, the "ramp" might hinder some of his aerials attacks, and I imagine the karts would stop him from always being in your face. Like I said, just a guess but I figure it was one of the stages that barely "passed."

@ Yuna:

I'll edit this to review what you said after I come back from the grocery store.

 

[Doggalina]

SamuraiPanda, why wouldn't you tell everybody which stages CP Meta? Just wondering. Holding back info like that only hurts the community.

 

[MysticKenji]

SamuraiPanda, why wouldn't you tell everybody which stages CP Meta? Just wondering. Holding back info like that only hurts the community.

I think he wants people to figure it out on their own.

Spoiler

I'm betting that one of them is Green Greens

 

[ProBrawler]

I think he wants people to figure it out on their own.

Spoiler

I'm betting that one of them is Green Greens

Ditto and

Spoiler

Personally I bet on Yoshi's Island Melee, seems logical.

 

[Tien2500]

Regarding ZSS.

I personally don't believe that ZSS is a neutral or counter to MK. But there are some things that make her not suck as much as others against him...

1. ZSS can use her forward B, or grab (depending on height) against MK's tornado which limits the usefulness of that move.

2. ZSS can actually grab MK out of a shorthop. Its fun.

3. ZSS has a one frame jab. So its quick enough to be used to punish some of MKs moves even though they lack lag.

4. ZSS' recovery is not that gimpable even against MK. As a Zamus player I really don't use the tether recovery that much. The only times I use it are in situations where it is safe, meaning when my opponent is too far away or at a bad position to edgehog. Or I'll use it to edgehog people. In all other situations I'll typically be recovering from above the stage using the Down B. Speaking of the down B it can make it hard for MK to edgehog her. If you could predict when he's going to shuttle loop you can Down B and the kick should trade hits with him knocking you towards the stage and him away.

5. Used smartly the plasma whip and paralyzer can make approaching difficult for MK.

And thats about it. Honestly I don't think this makes MK neutral. I'd say 60-40 for MK still.


By the way who are the characters that counter snake that MK makes unviable?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Snake has no hard counters and only a few soft counters. A few bad match-ups wouldn't stop him from running things in MK's absence. He wouldn't be the only one winning, just as MK isn't the only one winning right now, but it's pretty clear he would be the winningest character.

Also match-ups are definitely not the sole determining factor in a characters tourney success. As you say, Marth has few bad match ups, yet he's winning considerably less tournaments right now than DDD who has many bad match ups.

He's a more difficult character then Snake, the meta-game is still quite young so I expect Marth to improve overall.

Also, Mk's advantage over marth is at a lower play level then Snake's. Even M2K still thinks Snake has an advantage against MK still.

The rest of the sacred 7 owe their slots to Mk's field-clearing ability a great more then Marth does, whereas Marth is the most held back by Mk's presence.

This is obviously speculation, but if the Marth boards are correct about Marth's match-ups, Marth definitely would be in the top spot if there was no MK... which is rather useless but an interesting topic for discussion.

 

[Tien2500]

So I still need to know... who are these characters that MK completely shuts down and clears out of the tournament picture? I hear people talking about it but I need names... Besides characters that wouldn't be viable anyway.

 

[SkylerOcon]

SamuraiPanda, why wouldn't you tell everybody which stages CP Meta? Just wondering. Holding back info like that only hurts the community.

It really does only hurt the community. Holding this back just because you want us to figure it out for ourselves is like a teacher not telling a little kid how to multiply just because she wants him to figure it out for himself. It's just not right.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@adumbrodeus-I completely agree. It just so happens that nearly all of the characters Marth has an advantage over...also have a disadvantage against Metaknight (most likely a much larger disadvantage). Assuming some of those characters were made more viable in Metaknight's absense, Marth would overall have a larger proportion of advantageous matchups. And with his only disadvantage gone, he'd be the one with no bad matchups, but at the same time not really **** anyone so hard that he makes them unviable by himself. He'd have the luxury of going through entire tournaments just fighting characters that have uphill battles against him for the most part, with a few even matchups here and there. And since the characters that he has even matchups against have their own counters (conviniently removed by Metaknight), they'd become a little less frequent, so it's entirely possible that Marth players would be able to go through a tournament and have only a few matches where they don't have an advantage.

That's probably exactly what you were thinking anyway.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It really does only hurt the community. Holding this back just because you want us to figure it out for ourselves is like a teacher not telling a little kid how to multiply just because she wants him to figure it out for himself. It's just not right.

Or you could stop being lazy and Actually try LOOKING UP the legal stage list. The Broomers TELL you which stage is an MK counterpick.

Although I admit it's a little annoying that Samurai didn't mention the other possible anti-metaknight stage or a hint about what the stage could look like.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Dang, I have gone a few weeks without visiting smashboards and before everyone was, "lol SNayk izz unkillabull, no 1 wil eva b betta den snayk!!!!!11111"

No MK eh? Will that goes to show that with time people learn things about characters that change there opinions, or people learn new strategies etc.

I would personally prefer if there was a big diversity in characters, it would make the game more fun IMO, but banning the best character won't fix this, it will just make the next best character, the best.

Edited because I thought I said dang at the beginning but must have said dam*, because it was censored, sorry about that.

 

[phosphorus]

I have a hard time telling whether SSBB's "fighting engine" inherently evens the playing field or inherently imbalances it. I kinda want to say it makes it more even because of how floaty it is, but at the same time, that floatyness sometimes often times leaves you vulnerable, unable to land to restore mobility before, say, Samus is punished for a whiffed Up B.

Meta Knight is strange in how he gets gradually closer to a semblance of balance the more skilled the competitors are.

Considering the nature of Smash, playing as your favorite character is more important here than in most fighting games, so the standard "only viable character" argument doesn't seem appropriate. The problem is that SSBB is so imbalanced that banning Meta Knight won't really fix anything. Lets say Meta Knight has been banned, and I want to play Sonic all the way in a tournament. I won't have to deal with any MK's, but wait, I'm still at a disadvantage to Toon Link, ROB, Falco, G&W, Lucario, and probably a few other I can't think of right now. however, fighting a Meta Knight would still be a much greater challenge than if they had chosen someone else.

I say Ban Sakurai.

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

On the topic of banning MK / not being able to beat him, I think MK himself put it best:

"Come back when you can put up a fight."

 

[Gygados]

I don't think anyone should get banned today.

However, should we encourage the use of overlooked characters rather than just see MetaKnight, Snake, R.O.B and the space animals?

Like Jiggs!

WOOOO JIGGS!!!

 

[Yonder]

However, should we encourage the use of overlooked characters rather than just see MetaKnight, Snake, R.O.B and the space animals?

Like Jiggs!

WOOOO JIGGS!!!

Lol, the day we see other characters other than the overused ones in tourneys is the day Nintendo kills off Mario.

 

[MarKO X]

okaaaaay... so I looked it up, and they're serious. Apparently,

Spoiler

Melee's Yoshi Island

counters MK. Why? Something about

Spoiler

Melee's Yoshi Island

being effective against lightweights. I woulda never guessed it.

 

[Brinzy]

Melee Yoshi's Island has a very low ceiling and very small blast zones (I think that's the correct term). Everyone does not die from failing a recovery unless you're someone like Olimar and you get spiked down on the left side or in the center and just cannot grab the edge for whatever reason. Granted, you're going to have to do better on slopes, but already, you're hampering MK's gimping abilities and you're capitalizing on his lightness. His stalling techniques are limited to just one edge, and if he screws up, chances are it'll be -1 stock because of how fast you die once you leave the stage.

I never actually considered Melee Yoshi's Island before for Brawl, but mainly because it's banned (I think) in Melee itself. Regardless, I like that idea, a lot.

 

[Lixivium]

Just include a bonus for winning a tournament with other characters. Like an extra 50% for winning with Ness or something. Problem solved.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So I still need to know... who are these characters that MK completely shuts down and clears out of the tournament picture? I hear people talking about it but I need names... Besides characters that wouldn't be viable anyway.

for a 100% fact i know sonic is one of them, being my main

You seem oh so willing to ban MK. You believe already that he is the "Akuma" of Brawl, but that simply hasn't proven to be the case. When MK wins every tournament and he's the only tourney viable character, then he will be ban worthy.

i actually agree with you, and id say that another full year should be long enough to determinewhat the best course of action is

 

[OrlanduEX]

He's a more difficult character then Snake, the meta-game is still quite young so I expect Marth to improve overall.

Also, Mk's advantage over marth is at a lower play level then Snake's. Even M2K still thinks Snake has an advantage against MK still.

The rest of the sacred 7 owe their slots to Mk's field-clearing ability a great more then Marth does, whereas Marth is the most held back by Mk's presence.

This is obviously speculation, but if the Marth boards are correct about Marth's match-ups, Marth definitely would be in the top spot if there was no MK... which is rather useless but an interesting topic for discussion.

First of all, after 6 months we can't even say with full certainty what constitutes bad match-ups. What we consider bad match ups now may be neutral or even advantageous in the future.

Second of all, as I said prior, match-ups simply aren't everything. If Marth is so good and has so few bad match ups, then he should be the second winningest character after MK. He beats everyone else, but loses to MK. But that simply isn't the case. Right now, Snake, DDD, and G&W are winning more than Marth. And I know his game will improve in the future, but who says that the other characters won't improve as well?

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

mk isnt that hard to beat. hes very good but he has alot of weaknesses like if he does a special in midair he cant recover. he also has a short range. marth, bowzer, DDD, Dk, and falco **** him in their sleep.

 

[PowerBomb]

mk isnt that hard to beat. hes very good but he has alot of weaknesses like if he does a special in midair he cant recover. he also has a short range. marth, bowzer, DDD, Dk, and falco **** him in their sleep.

NO, they don't. Meta Knight has deceptive range, much longer than it seems. And DDD ****** MK in his sleep? MK is one of Dedede's harder match-ups. Everyone else has it neutral or disadvantage against MK. Not sure about DK though, since I see a lot of people saying he has it neutral or better against MK.

And a good MK player wouldn't kill himself with his specials in mid-air, would he/her?

 

[Devil7]

DK has a sleight advantage against the MK. I'm actually surprised more people don't play the big monkey. And Power Bomb is right a good MK won't kill themselves hence the word "GOOD".

 

[:034:]

Devil7, you main Ike now? Lame >_>

 

[Dark Sonic]

Second of all, as I said prior, match-ups simply aren't everything. If Marth is so good and has so few bad match ups, then he should be the second winningest character after MK. He beats everyone else, but loses to MK. But that simply isn't the case. Right now, Snake, DDD, and G&W are winning more than Marth. And I know his game will improve in the future, but who says that the other characters won't improve as well?

Metaknight and Marth largely have the same match-ups, with Metaknight just doing better in most of them, thus eliminating them from tournament play and not allowing Marth to have those advantageous match-ups. Also, some of those characters that Metaknight limits may have advantageous match-ups on someone else in the sacred seven, and if it weren't for Metaknight that counter character would be played more often and lessen the impact of the character that they counter, which would in turn lower the number of even match-ups Marth would deal with. But because none of Marth's counters were being eliminated by Metaknight (because he doesn't have any), Marth would not be negatively affected by Metaknight's removal, but rather positively affected by the slightly larger diversity of characters (most of whom he'd still have an advantage over).

But of course this is merely speculation, and it assumes that the other sacred 7's bad match-ups are indeed bad match-ups, and that even a few of those characters would become more common if they didn't have to deal with the surge of Metaknights.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Metaknight and Marth largely have the same match-ups, with Metaknight just doing better in most of them, thus eliminating them from tournament play and not allowing Marth to have those advantageous match-ups. Also, some of those characters that Metaknight limits may have advantageous match-ups on someone else in the sacred seven, and if it weren't for Metaknight that counter character would be played more often and lessen the impact of the character that they counter, which would in turn lower the number of even match-ups Marth would deal with. But because none of Marth's counters were being eliminated by Metaknight (because he doesn't have any), Marth would not be negatively affected by Metaknight's removal, but rather positively affected by the slightly larger diversity of characters (most of whom he'd still have an advantage over).

But of course this is merely speculation, and it assumes that the other sacred 7's bad match-ups are indeed bad match-ups, and that even a few of those characters would become more common if they didn't have to deal with the surge of Metaknights.

I agree with your second paragraph. Let's just give the game a few more months (or years) before we talk about banning anything or tier rankings since we don't have completely reliable match-up data yet.

 

[Yojimbo]

mk isnt that hard to beat. hes very good but he has alot of weaknesses like if he does a special in midair he cant recover. he also has a short range. marth, bowzer, DDD, Dk, and falco **** him in their sleep.

Hahahah, welcome to the Smash boards. Metaknight's range is incredibly deceptive and good for his size. And yes, all of his specials make him vulnerable in the air. Which is why the Drill Rush isn't the best of his specials. And MK has an advantage over all of the characters you listed.

Great job!

 

[Tien2500]

for a 100% fact i know sonic is one of them, being my main



i actually agree with you, and id say that another full year should be long enough to determinewhat the best course of action is

Sonic isn't awful but he's not really that amazing... Would sonic be tournament viable without MK? Can he deal with Snake/G&W/Dedede/Marth/ROB?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic isn't awful but he's not really that amazing... Would sonic be tournament viable without MK? Can he deal with Snake/G&W/Dedede/Marth/ROB?

Yes he can actually. Not a single one of those characters has a large advantage on him. His only other really bad match-up is Luigi, who is not that popular in tournaments.

 

[Tien2500]

Mkay thats good to know. So if that is right that's one character that is effectively eliminated from competitive play due to MK. Any others?

 

[fujbubccc]

Wait Wave, what about Snake vs. Sonic? I seem to remember him really putting the hurt on Sonic.

 

[infomon]

Sonic also has a really big disadvantage to Wario. Lots of characters have bad match-ups. That doesn't call for a ban of any sort.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

. And MK has an advantage over all of the characters you listed.

Great job!

Except for DK

 

[gallax]

even if in 3 years 1000 smash tournaments are held in one year and MK won 999 out of those, this community would still not ban MK. the excuse that he didnt win that one tournament would be enough to not ban him. that or everyone has switched over to MK and doesnt know how to play with anyone else and they say dont ban cuz then they wont be winning anymore.