The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[OrlanduEX]

If someone gets to ban all the high tiers for a while, the Low tiers might surpass the Mid or High(some characters have potential)

Probably not. Brawl isn't quite so complex. I don't see any characters making any drastic jumps or falls in their tier placing.

If you ban the top/high tier characters for an extended period of time, you don't learn how to play against them. You learn how to play low tiers against other low tiers. When those top/high tiers are reintroduced to the metagame, they **** again because people don't know how to play against them. Not productive. It's better to suck it up and just play hard as things stand now. If those low tiers have any potential, it will be discovered by putting them through the crucible of bad match-ups, not by playing them against other characters who suck.

 

[RDK]

In other words, the fact that people may or may not whine about other characters in the future is irrelevant to the discussion of whether MK should be banned or not.

But it's good insight as to why the whiners whine. They don't want him banned because he's unbeatable, or for any reason as valid as that--they want him banned because they get tired of facing him in tournaments. If he wasn't played as much it wouldn't be that big of a problem.

Point being, their reason for wanting him banned has nothing to do with the metagame at all. It still boggles my mind why people take n00b's opinions seriously.

 

[Teh_Pwn'z_Lord]

Who is Old Sagat?

 

[OrlanduEX]

Who is Old Sagat?

In Super Street Fighter 2: Turbo (AKA Super Turbo), you can play as a newer version of each character, which gives you a super move and some other move properties, or you can play as the old version of the character from Hyper Street Fighter 2: Turbo.
For the most part, the new version is superior to the old version, but in the case of Sagat, the older version (Old Sagat), is much better.

Sagat has a fireball move called Tiger Shot. Old Sagat can fire tiger shots HELLA fast. You can beat someone easily by just spamming fireballs in a lot of cases. New Sagat's fireballs are slowed down so that they are more fair. A lot of characters have very bad match-ups against Old Sagat because they can't deal with the fireball spam. In Japan, players decided not to play with Old Sagat to make other characters like E. Honda more viable in tournaments. Us Americans, though, who wouldn't be playing sh*tty characters anyway, are too hardcore for that.

 

[Teh_Pwn'z_Lord]

Oh so it isn''t Brawl related?

 

[RDK]

God, people are stupid.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Oh so it isn''t Brawl related?

*facepalm*

I hope you're being sarcastic. People are comparing MK to Old Sagat. They say MK kills viability the way the Japanese think Old Sagat does. Except that the game is 6 months old.

 

[goodkid]

Banning MK would be stupid. There are ways around MK, its just not many people have found them yet.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Actually, they have. Which is what makes this argument even dumber.

 

[Teh_Pwn'z_Lord]

Yeah....I was being sarcastic >_>

 

[Foxy]

The best way to deal with this thread is to stop posting and let it rot, but keep the link ready so that every time someone makes a new thread about MK you can simply direct them to the already existing (and inactive) one and get theirs closed.

 

[RDK]

The best way to deal with this thread is to stop posting and let it rot, but keep the link ready so that every time someone makes a new thread about MK you can simply direct them to the already existing (and inactive) one and get theirs closed.

Or, just be a smart person and sticky it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

1337 stuff

This.

You sir, have just won the thread. what you said is pretty much exactly why a lot of people go to the knee-jerk, "gotta ban!" reaction. Heck, happened at a pick-up "tournament" at my school, people were tired of seeing snake win, so nobody was allowed to use him. That's when I dropped out and played melee.

Unfortunately, I doubt it will change anytime soon, people don't defeat ignorance overnight.

Oh so it isn''t Brawl related?

It's a comparison, Old Sagat is a good example of an extremely boarderline but still bannable character.

He was pointed out because he's the closest comparison to MK, however it was a while before he was banned in Japan, and he's still America legal. Basically he was banned because he made a number of character unviable in tournaments independently.

IMO MK is worse then Old Sagat in that regard, but the metagame is FAR too new to be sure, or even to ban him if he is, because that might change.

The best way to deal with this thread is to stop posting and let it rot, but keep the link ready so that every time someone makes a new thread about MK you can simply direct them to the already existing (and inactive) one and get theirs closed.

Sticky is better, cuts down on the threads and makes it even less of an excuse, so it's locked ASAP.

 

[infomon]

Yeah....I was being sarcastic >_>

In that case, it was hilarious :D well played.

 

[pika-power]

Just out of interest, at what point was Sargat banned? When in the metagame?

Also, if metaknight was banned, would any character become more viable? How many?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just out of interest, at what point was Sargat banned? When in the metagame?

Because he effectively made quite a few characters unviable that were otherwise viable. Ken and Chun Li are good examples.

edit: This is in Japan only, just so you know (it's only a soft-ban, but soft and hard bans are functionally the same in the Japanese metagame). Also, after the game had been out for a LONG time. Basically, everyone knew at that point that the metagame was mature enough to make that judgment.

Still, it's borderline, hence the lack of a ban in the US.

Also, if metaknight was banned, would any character become more viable? How many?

It definitely seems that way, you can take a look at MK's match-up thread in their board to get an understanding of the number of characters if not the actual characters (it's rather inaccurate inaccurate). 70-30 match-ups or worse.

However, as was pointed out many times, we're not positive that this is accurate and MK doesn't instead have lots of 60-40s at this point in the metagame. That just shows how young our metagame is and how banning anyone that wasn't effectively Akuma would be pre-mature (and by effectively Akuma, I mean basically unwinnable match-up for the entire cast pretty much regardless of skill level).

Even if it is accurate, we don't know if that will change when the metagame matures.


Point is unless somebody is flat out beats the entire cast, until we're sure that they flat-out beat enough characters to be worth banning, they do not deserve to be banned. Unless MK has air fireball in his natural moveset, I don't see this happening.

 

[ShadowLink84]

old Sagat is not banned Adumbrodeus.
he is soft banned in Japan only.

 

[adumbrodeus]

old Sagat is not banned Adumbrodeus.
he is soft banned in Japan only.

I know, I've stated that several times before... I just forgot to clarrify. :embarrass

*edits*

Edit: I mean in that post I forgot to clarify.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No its my error sorry.

 

[Foxy]

Sagat basically just had tons of good matchups and was able to beat most of the cast quite easily. While this didn't make him indisputably the best character (there was still some disagreement) the Japanese felt that since he alone beat such a large portion of the cast, regardless of how good he was overall, he deprived the game of a lot of the variety it had. Therefore good Japanese players just don't play him.

Metaknight is nowhere near that point. He has some unfavorable matchups, and he doesn't have 70-30 against 3/4 of the cast. He's only a little bit better than the next best characters. In all the tournaments I've been to I've never seen an MK win 1st place (I admit there's a lack of good MK's here in NC, but I guess that shows that he isn't good enough for bad players to win tournies with him).

 

[Falconv1.0]

Once again, no, MK doesn't render someone unviable alone, that character already was unviable. MK doe s not 7-3 a lot of people, and quite frankly those MK match up threads ****ing sucks ***. I saw he 7-3's Boozer and Ike. That alone is a ****ing stupid claim.


And lolcats, he's not worse than Old Sagat, because hooooly ****, he's not even as bad as ****ing Sheik in Melee.

 

[Zero_P]

he's not even as bad as ****ing Sheik in Melee.

I think you're a little confused...

 

[adumbrodeus]

No its my error sorry.

NP

Metaknight is nowhere near that point. He has some unfavorable matchups, and he doesn't have 70-30 against 3/4 of the cast. He's only a little bit better than the next best characters. In all the tournaments I've been to I've never seen an MK win 1st place (I admit there's a lack of good MK's here in NC, but I guess that shows that he isn't good enough for bad players to win tournies with him).

What unfavorable match-ups?

Diddy is unproven, all other possibilities that people have put forth have been even or Mk's advantage (Snake included).

The general consensus is that he does in fact have have an enormous number of 70/30 match-ups and that 60/40s and neutrals are the exception, not the rule.


And just a little better? Lol, that's funny, he has more ranking points then the rest of the characters combined, minus snake who he still beats by a good 400 points. Check the rankings thread.

Quite frankly, if Mks in your area aren't winning... quite frankly they're so horrible that I doubt they would win with Akuma in Super Turbo.

Regardless, it's not about weak players, they don't drive the metagame. What's important is who is viable in tournament-level matches. Old Sagat wouldn't win if played by an unskilled player either.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So another tournament in MD just ended where basically the best MK's in the country were once again out placed by other characters (Forte/Plank getting 9th, this just after Plank got 3rd at axis). I'm closing this thread because its been looping for awhile and is far to premature.