The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Me_Aludes]

It has more lag than stun at low percents. I'm completely serious. Another Marth can land his side B combo on you because you decided to b-throw him like an idiot. Many characters can land fast aerials on you before you're out of stun. B-throw inflicts less damage than d-throw as well. D-throw is superior in every concievable way.

Then buff the B-Throw (yes, i know, throws can't be changed... yet). Having pointless moves is pointless lol.

Even if the character is MARTH.

 

[trojanpooh]

I wouldn't mind a Sing buff, if my memory serves me right, Smash64 had a much longer sleep time, but I'm not sure if that is the way to go. Maybe make the move finish quicker. Also, here is my feedback on the 4.0 codeset

*Jiggs rest is great, not too good yet still godly.

*I like the idea of the custom CSS, but its sorting isn't perfect. It tries to be neat, but isn't. Don't be afraid to try a more random setup or organize by something other than series.

*The random is a little skewed towards the Pokemon, Zelda, Sheik, and the Samuses. I don't know if this would work, but couldn't you put each character in multiple times to rebalance the Random?

*Now that Jiggs has her rest back, why not throw a bone to Luigi? His B^ has seen better days.

*If you ever figure out how to, could we give Ness's bat the classic screech (once the line limit disappears completely of course)? I know its not a competitive code, but it makes me want to cry every time I hit someone across the face with the bat and no cool sound comes out.

I'll be back at some point to give more feedback, but in the mean time think about what I wrote above.

 

[GHNeko]

Then buff the B-Throw (yes, i know, throws can't be changed... yet). Having pointless moves is pointless lol.

Even if the character is MARTH.

But he doesnt need it. D:

He's great as it is.

I wouldn't mind a Sing buff, if my memory serves me right, Smash64 had a much longer sleep time, but I'm not sure if that is the way to go. Maybe make the move finish quicker. Also, here is my feedback on the 4.0 codeset

*Jiggs rest is great, not too good yet still godly.

*I like the idea of the custom CSS, but its sorting isn't perfect. It tries to be neat, but isn't. Don't be afraid to try a more random setup or organize by something other than series.

*The random is a little skewed towards the Pokemon, Zelda, Sheik, and the Samuses. I don't know if this would work, but couldn't you put each character in multiple times to rebalance the Random?

*Now that Jiggs has her rest back, why not throw a bone to Luigi? His B^ has seen better days.

*If you ever figure out how to, could we give Ness's bat the classic screech (once the line limit disappears completely of course)? I know its not a competitive code, but it makes me want to cry every time I hit someone across the face with the bat and no cool sound comes out.

I'll be back at some point to give more feedback, but in the mean time think about what I wrote above.

The bat sound was already done. And Luigi's Up B is nerfed because of gravity changes.

Though i do agree that should be fixed, I'm iffy about it because he can combo into it alot easier now.

 

[Deleted member]

I think rest's kb should be character specific. Something like this: The bigger the character, the less knockback. Since it's so easy to land a rest on a Bowser, and so hard to land on... say, another jiggz, or a GaW, so, more Risk=more Reward.
Edit:Risk

 

[trojanpooh]

I don't really play Luigi so I can't tell how the move works w/ combos accounted for, it just seems like his B^ is not good. At the very least, make it so that when he lands it, he doesn't land on his head. As it is right now, using that attack will cause you to be hit.

 

[grim mouser]

How was Links Up B changed? I didn't notice a semi-spike in my tests.

 

[Greenpoe]

Brawl+ BETA 4.0 has yet to be released to the public~

You can get it, just ask in IRC chat.

 

[GPDP]

How was Links Up B changed? I didn't notice a semi-spike in my tests.

You have to hit with the second or third hits IIRC, and it only works on the lower hitbox.

 

[kupo15]

Its only the second but the third should a must be included as well

 

[Wavedash Master]

In the new codeset, the third hitbox has it too. It says so in the new change list (Shanus's 3pm one).

 

[Rikana]

I think rest's kb should be character specific. Something like this: The bigger the character, the less knockback. Since it's so easy to land a rest on a Bowser, and so hard to land on... say, another jiggz, or a GaW, so, more Risk=more Reward.
Edit:Risk

I don't believe so. I think rest is fine the way it is. Maybe a bit of a nerf in the future (the rest in the beta codeset) 'cause it might be a bit over powered at the moment. But, we'll have to see how its played out.

Anyways, jigs rest combos for the win. -looks at sig- (this was before the rest buff)

 

[cAm8ooo]

I think rest's kb should be character specific. Something like this: The bigger the character, the less knockback. Since it's so easy to land a rest on a Bowser, and so hard to land on... say, another jiggz, or a GaW, so, more Risk=more Reward.
Edit:Risk

Umm, isnt this basically already how it acts. I mean think about it. The bigger characters in the game like bowser or dk are already heavier then characters like jiggly and GW. So they have to be at a higher percent to get killed from it. I dont see the point of using more lines to do something that is already done.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I don't really play Luigi so I can't tell how the move works w/ combos accounted for, it just seems like his B^ is not good. At the very least, make it so that when he lands it, he doesn't land on his head. As it is right now, using that attack will cause you to be hit.

I don't think the upB needs anything. It can kill in the 50s in B+ IIRC.

As for jiggz sleep, as much as I'd like every move in the game to be good, it simply is not needed. Look at any other fighting game and you see that all characters have a different number of moves. Smash is the only game I know in which every character has the same number of moves, but we can see from any other fighting game that balance does not require
every move to be useful. It's perfectly fine for a character to have a small but strong set of BnB moves that make them viable against a character with more more widely useful but vanilla arsenal.

Unless you can prove beyond as hadow of a doubt that a move will never be used in any situation, the move shouldn't be considered for buffing outside the character needing a buff. Sleep has already had uses listed. Marth Bthrow might actually be useless to Marth, but even satisfying that, there is no need to give him another move for the sake of completeness when he needs absolutely nothing at the moment.

Bottom line: if down the line Jiggz proves to need a buff, we can look at (and should be encouraged to look at) buffing Sleep. Right now that's not the case.

 

[Shell]

SketchHurricane summed that up rather nicely. I hadn't really considered the analogy to other fighting games before, either -- props.

 

[Zodac]

is there a brawl+ 4.0 PAL translation yet?

 

[Greenpoe]

I don't think the upB needs anything. It can kill in the 50s in B+ IIRC.

As for jiggz sleep, as much as I'd like every move in the game to be good, it simply is not needed. Look at any other fighting game and you see that all characters have a different number of moves. Smash is the only game I know in which every character has the same number of moves, but we can see from any other fighting game that balance does not require
every move to be useful. It's perfectly fine for a character to have a small but strong set of BnB moves that make them viable against a character with more more widely useful but vanilla arsenal.

Unless you can prove beyond as hadow of a doubt that a move will never be used in any situation, the move shouldn't be considered for buffing outside the character needing a buff. Sleep has already had uses listed. Marth Bthrow might actually be useless to Marth, but even satisfying that, there is no need to give him another move for the sake of completeness when he needs absolutely nothing at the moment.

Bottom line: if down the line Jiggz proves to need a buff, we can look at (and should be encouraged to look at) buffing Sleep. Right now that's not the case.

I disagree. Let's say one character has one move that makes them good. It's just an amazing move, and they rate pretty highly on the tier list. But, every other move they have is worthless. This character is pretty easy to play because of this, but those who play for fun avoid him, and some who play competitively use him, but only because they can handle his simplicity better.
Boring character? Yup. Let's say there was a sequel. Let's say he had two viable moves, but the first was made less good...now he's far more interesting! This increasing his metagame, and increasing competition with this character.
Is this second move a good thing? Of course! It increases depth, competition, and fun, the three ideals of the foundation of Brawl+.
Let's say that situation didn't apply to only one character, but the entire cast? Few people would play such a game, as it would be far too simple.
How does this apply to Smash? Many characters have worthless moves. I say, since we're going as far as changing the code in the game, from characters to stages to menus, why not go the full nine yards? With each move we buff, it makes the game more fun, deep, and competitive as long as balance is maintained. We made a buff that requires either another move to be nerfed or the buff to be removed? Let's nerf something else! That way, the three ideals are furthered.

Is the game I described earlier unreasonable? Look at vBrawl. Plenty of matchups rely, basically, around one move for one character, making the game incredibly lame (DDD vs. DK, Sheik vs. Fox, Marth vs. Ness). Granted, Brawl+ has brought it to a level of very much increased fun, depth and competition in comparison to vBrawl, but why not keep going? We are no longer limited by 256 lines, and soon, we won't be limited by 430 either. How about we be proactive and go the extra mile to make it the better game?

In fact, when you say, "It's fine the way it is", that's the same view that people who still play vBrawl have. Most people who play Brawl+ love it, and we know that if more people tried it, they would like it too. It's the same situation here, however, for those who agree with you, SketchHurricane, vs. Jigglypuff mains. Now, if the rest buff is too good, we can change Jigglypuff either by altering her rest or other moves.
Look at Bowser. I believe that he was "fine" the way he was in the 3.0 codeset, but then his tilts were sped up, half his up B landing lag was removed, and now suggestions have been taken for more buffs. Why? Because it follows this project's ideals. If you look at Bowser's list of buffs, it's bigger than any other characters. Does this make him broken? Nope. Does this make him too good? I don't know, but if it does, it can be fixed if that is realized as true. It's better to have many good aspects than just one.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I disagree. Let's say one character has one move that makes them good. It's just an amazing move, and they rate pretty highly on the tier list. But, every other move they have is worthless. This character is pretty easy to play because of this, but those who play for fun avoid him, and some who play competitively use him, but only because they can handle his simplicity better.

Ah...but here's where you made the mistake. The character wouldn't be good! If they only have one single good move, then their game would either be
1. Broken because the move is too good and they'd get banned, because banning a move is ridiculous (though if it's a tactic the tactic might get banned, if so move to number 2.)
2. Terrible because they're so predictable (if the move has at least on counter, this will be the case)

Boring character? Yup. Let's say there was a sequel.

Bad character is more like it.

Let's say he had two viable moves, but the first was made less good...now he's far more interesting! This increasing his metagame, and increasing competition with this character.
Is this second move a good thing? Of course! It increases depth, competition, and fun, the three ideals of the foundation of Brawl+.

He's only more interesting now because he has an actual mixup game now. As in, now it exists. However, what if a character has one bad move and 19 good moves? (Marth). That one bad move will simply not be used (Marth's b-throw) and many of his good moves will not be used (because there are better options). Making that one move more useful will not make the character more interesting, because he's not using all of his moves in the first place (how many Marths use jab?).

Let's say that situation didn't apply to only one character, but the entire cast? Few people would play such a game, as it would be far too simple.

Because there wouldn't be enough options to have many Yomi layers.

How does this apply to Smash? Many characters have worthless moves.

Obviously not enough to make the game boring.

I say, since we're going as far as changing the code in the game, from characters to stages to menus, why not go the full nine yards? With each move we buff, it makes the game more fun, deep, and competitive as long as balance is maintained.

Character balance is not as simple as you think. One or two moves can determine an entire matchup against another character. For instance, what do you think Marth vs Fox would be like in melee if Marth's upthrow couldn't combo into anything?

We made a buff that requires either another move to be nerfed or the buff to be removed? Let's nerf something else!

Buff Marth's b-throw, nerf what?

Is the game I described earlier unreasonable? Look at vBrawl. Plenty of matchups rely, basically, around one move for one character, making the game incredibly lame (DDD vs. DK, Sheik vs. Fox, Marth vs. Ness).

That's exactly my point. One move can change a matchup, so why unnecessarily buff things? Why buff a character that's already balanced? Even if we nerf something else, we're not just affecting that character when we make character changes. We are affecting that character and all matchups against that character. You buff Marth's b-throw and now he's got a reliable combo option out of a grab against DDD, which he didn't have previously. Even if you nerf something else, you've still affected that matchup and still messed with a relatively balanced character, for the sake of adding one move to his arsenal (especially a character who already doesn't use all his moves anyway?)

Granted, Brawl+ has brought it to a level of very much increased fun, depth and competition in comparison to vBrawl, but why not keep going? We are no longer limited by 256 lines, and soon, we won't be limited by 430 either. How about we be proactive and go the extra mile to make it the better game?

Because "going the extra mile" has a lot of potential side effects and is completely unnecessary.

Look at Bowser. I believe that he was "fine" the way he was in the 3.0 codeset, but then his tilts were sped up, half his up B landing lag was removed, and now suggestions have been taken for more buffs. Why? Because it follows this project's ideals. If you look at Bowser's list of buffs, it's bigger than any other characters. Does this make him broken? Nope. Does this make him too good? I don't know, but if it does, it can be fixed if that is realized as true. It's better to have many good aspects than just one.

We buffed Bowser because he was bad. He had many situations that he simply could not deal with. If Marth was just standing at sword's length camping fairs, Bowser simply had zero options for getting out of that situation. We buff bad characters in an effort to balance the game.

However, as far as I know, Jigglypuff is not a bad character. I am 100% sure that Marth is a great character, easily within the top 10 characters in this game. Why should we buff them? Buffing Marth's b-throw could push him over the edge if done wrong (b-throw to side B combo?), and even if you nerf him, you might not nerf the right moves. Nerf his fair and he loses his BnB spacing options, nerf his side B and he gets ***** by spot dodges (the vast majority of Marth's moves only have hitboxes for 1 frame), nerf counter and...nothing really happens because he just won't use the move (99% of the time Marth uses counter, he could've done something better and just didn't think of it). And even if you find a good move to nerf, it still will drastically affect his matchups, since the moves he uses most actually depends on the matchup (it's not just fairs guys, some matchups won't let you do that).

Why go through all that with an already balanced character? Especially when we're trying to set some sort of standard relatively quickly so that we can actually have tournaments and so that people can practice!

 

[goodoldganon]

I love you DS in the most heterosexual way possible.

 

[Zelc]

I've noticed this disturbing trend going on in the character balancing thread. It seems like all the suggestions could come from this process:

1. Consider character's first move.
2. Is the move good? If no, go to step 3. If yes, go to step 4.
3. The move is not good. Suggest it should be buffed!
4. Consider the next move until all moves have been considered. Go back to 2.

This IMO is a terrible way to balance the characters. This seems to be a great way to homogenize characters and remove weaknesses that could be exploited which make for interesting matchups. Instead, this process should be used:

1. Consider the personality of the character, or how we want the character to play like. What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses? How is it special?
2. Consider the character's first move.
3. Does the move fit with the character's personality? If no, go to step 3. If yes, go to step 4.
4. Consider how the move could be changed (buffed or nerfed) to better realize the character's personality.
5. Consider the character's next move until all moves have been considered. Go back to step 3.

For an example, see the discussion surrounding Bowser's bair and Yoshi's dsmash. Maybe the second process was used, but the discussion is revolving entirely around the first process.

 

[cAm8ooo]

It should go more like this.

1. Does character suck. If so go to step 2, if not go to step 3.
2.Buff him/her
3.Do nothing.

Since jiggly's rest has been buffed Jiggly and marth fall under the do nothing category.

Very simple. You dont even need to look at all the moves.

 

[Zelc]

OK, well then you need to decide how to implement the buffs, or nerfs (for the characters that are too good i.e. MK). My processes still apply .

 

[Cowbox]

My friends and I have been playing Brawl+ for about a month now and a few things came up during last weekend after we played around on the new (to us) March 9 codeset. I'm sure these have already been brought to your attention, but I just don't have time to read all 220+ pages (I read back a few pages and only noticed stuff about buffing Jiggs/Marth/Luigi.) in the middle of college tests/presentations (Bleeeeeeeeh. >:|). Just trying to contribute as much as I can.

1. Thanks to the momentum hack, Ganon's side-B in the air continues forward for a considerable distance after he catches an enemy, making it very easy to suicide with it. We originally figured this was going to be gamebreaking as you would only need to be one stock ahead to sweep the rest of the game. After a few hours of playing around with it, nobody had yet to win a game by solely relying on this. If possible, I'd like to go so far as saying to keep this change, as it gives Ganon a bit of a buff, but not one that yells out instant win (You're trading one stock of your own for one of theirs. Clearly this is a much better trade if you're at 150% and they're at 0%, but them's the breaks. It's a gamble.). It leaves you open if you miss, and do it too close to the edge and it's practically death. Not to mention it's hilariously awesome.

2. Again, with the momentum hack, ROB's side-B sends him careening across the screen (About 3/4 the distance of Final Destination, IIRC.). I'd like to give my opinion of this as a ROB main, but despite hours of playing with him I have yet to find a practical use for this outside of fast transportation (For which I'd still rather use glide-tossing.). The damage is still weak and it leaves you very open -- often times flinging you completely off the edge. This only works in the air if you jumped straight up, so using it as recovery is out of the question. Please feel free to look into this more than I had the opportunity to, but as far as I can tell it just makes that move even worse (Not that anyone ever used that move anyway.).

3. My friends and I were playing on two separate Wiis, and within one hour they had both frozen twice (Incidentally, all four times happened on the one I was playing on at the time. Perhaps it has something to do with the tag "CBox".). We had never had any freezing issue before this codeset and we didn't have any more issues for the hours we played afterwards, though I wouldn't deny the possibilty that the freezing may have something to do with the codeset (Also, I believe at least two of the freezes happened on the frozen WarioWare stage (The other two I just can't remember what stage.), so perhaps it has something to do with freezing stages.).

4. This only happened once, but we have NEVER seen it before so I feel it's worth a mention. We played on Pokémon Staduim (The Melee one, not the Brawl one.) and during one of the trasformations (To or from what I don't remember (It happened at the start of the night and I quickly forgot about it until now. Go me.).), I fell through the middle of the stage. Right on through. It was a huge "WTF?" moment for all of us. I was ROB, if you think this makes any difference.

This is all I have to report for now. We hope to all get together soon to play again and I will be sure to let you guys know about any further issues we come across. I apologize if this was all already known.

 

[Shell]

1) Yes, due to the start-up time of Ganon's arial choke it won't be game-breaking any time soon. I've actually only gone for it on purpose a handful of times. But yes, it is awesome.

2) I don't play as / against ROB and I don't know what we're doing with this move yet, but we've known about the issue for some time.

3) A lot of freezes have been reported with 3.3, however, our next beta (4.0) will be released "soon" and has been perfectly stable. Check the IRC chat room for more information on that.

4) I was playing against SMK and he got stuck inside the axis of the Wind Mill. But since I'm a good guy I hit him out of it . Sorry, but I don't think we know what caused this yet.

See you in the IRC room.

 

[CyberGlitch]

The freezing issues could be caused by holding your control stick in a certain direction when the match is ended. I don't think this glitch has been fixed yet.

As for how we should approach character balance...
While I understand the position you guys are taking, I do think you are missing out the potential Brawl+ has in making the game for fun and balanced. As far as I'm concerning, characters should be given options, some being reliable but weak and others being very risky but very rewarding. Buffing Jigglypuff's sing move does not homogenize her moveset, it gives her a unique killing option with and incredibly risk and reward not seen in any other move.

Our character balance should go as such:
1. Is X a bad character? If yes then go to 2, if no go to 3.
2. What weaknesses are destroying this character? What buffs best address these weaknesses in a way that compliments the character's playstyle? Once figured out, move on to 3.
3. Are any moves useless? Is the risk vs reward not decently balanced? (Moves don't need to have perfect risk vs reward, but if a move is rarely used because of this the move should be addressed. Lucas's grab is one example, Jigglypuff's sing could be argued as another one). Move on to 4.
4. Have the combined applied buffs made the character unbalanced? What move(s) cause this?

I'm all for giving characters more options.
In order to prevent homogenizing characters, I recommend modifying knockback values instead of animation speeds when applicable.

 

[Cowbox]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I may just start coming to the IRC room to contribute all I can (Goddammit, Brawl+ needs to grow. It's just too full of potential.), though unfortunately the only Wiis I have access to belong to my friends and we all only get together once or twice a month, so most of what I'd be able to talk about will be based solely off memory.

 

[CountKaiser]

Cyberglitch, quick question.

Do you think G&W needs any changes to his moves, be they nerfs or buffs?

I ask this because I know there was discussion about nerfing him further some time ago. Now that e can edit the lag of aerials individually, and the knockback of moves, what would you change?

 

[Greenpoe]

Ah...but here's where you made the mistake. The character wouldn't be good! If they only have one single good move, then their game would either be
1. Broken because the move is too good and they'd get banned, because banning a move is ridiculous (though if it's a tactic the tactic might get banned, if so move to number 2.)
2. Terrible because they're so predictable (if the move has at least on counter, this will be the case)

Way to miss the point. The point was that fewer moves=more boring character/game.

Bad character is more like it.
He's only more interesting now because he has an actual mixup game now. As in, now it exists. However, what if a character has one bad move and 19 good moves? (Marth). That one bad move will simply not be used (Marth's b-throw) and many of his good moves will not be used (because there are better options). Making that one move more useful will not make the character more interesting, because he's not using all of his moves in the first place (how many Marths use jab?).

Again, you're missing the point. Marth's jab is a developmental flaw. Let's say we buffed Marth's jab so that it became his fastest attack from a grounded position. Now it's useful! Understand? It simply furthers the metagame. It may not always be the best option, but in order for Marth's to improve, when they would need to use their fastest grounded attack, they would use jab.

Because there wouldn't be enough options to have many Yomi layers.
Obviously not enough to make the game boring.
Character balance is not as simple as you think. One or two moves can determine an entire matchup against another character. For instance, what do you think Marth vs Fox would be like in melee if Marth's upthrow couldn't combo into anything?
Buff Marth's b-throw, nerf what?
That's exactly my point. One move can change a matchup, so why unnecessarily buff things? Why buff a character that's already balanced? Even if we nerf something else, we're not just affecting that character when we make character changes. We are affecting that character and all matchups against that character. You buff Marth's b-throw and now he's got a reliable combo option out of a grab against DDD, which he didn't have previously. Even if you nerf something else, you've still affected that matchup and still messed with a relatively balanced character, for the sake of adding one move to his arsenal (especially a character who already doesn't use all his moves anyway?)
Because "going the extra mile" has a lot of potential side effects and is completely unnecessary.

We buffed Bowser because he was bad. He had many situations that he simply could not deal with. If Marth was just standing at sword's length camping fairs, Bowser simply had zero options for getting out of that situation. We buff bad characters in an effort to balance the game.

However, as far as I know, Jigglypuff is not a bad character. I am 100% sure that Marth is a great character, easily within the top 10 characters in this game. Why should we buff them? Buffing Marth's b-throw could push him over the edge if done wrong (b-throw to side B combo?), and even if you nerf him, you might not nerf the right moves. Nerf his fair and he loses his BnB spacing options, nerf his side B and he gets ***** by spot dodges (the vast majority of Marth's moves only have hitboxes for 1 frame), nerf counter and...nothing really happens because he just won't use the move (99% of the time Marth uses counter, he could've done something better and just didn't think of it). And even if you find a good move to nerf, it still will drastically affect his matchups, since the moves he uses most actually depends on the matchup (it's not just fairs guys, some matchups won't let you do that).

Why go through all that with an already balanced character? Especially when we're trying to set some sort of standard relatively quickly so that we can actually have tournaments and so that people can practice!

You're missing the concept. In between the place where the two extremes, where on "breaks a matchup" and the other is useless is a happy medium, if necessary, slightly favoring the side of useless. This sort of balance would be what makes a game competitive, deep, and fun, but I concede to Zelc, he has found a good systematic way to to decide if someone needs a buff or not rather than just saying, "LOL char iz already gud, so it dont matter."

This process should be used:

1. Consider the personality of the character, or how we want the character to play like. What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses? How is it special?
2. Consider the character's first move.
3. Does the move fit with the character's personality? If no, go to step 3. If yes, go to step 4.
4. Consider how the move could be changed (buffed or nerfed) to better realize the character's personality.
5. Consider the character's next move until all moves have been considered. Go back to step 3.

For an example, see the discussion surrounding Bowser's bair and Yoshi's dsmash. Maybe the second process was used, but the discussion is revolving entirely around the first process.

 

[Cowbox]

Way to miss the point. The point was that fewer moves=more boring character/game.

There's no such thing as an award for using the most moves or providing a flashier match. If the character can win just fine with only using a fraction of their move pool, then by all means keep it that way.

I played Soul Calibur 3 competitively for a while (Until I found out about Variable Cancel, but whatever.), and at the time the best way to play as Zasalamel was to limit yourself to eight moves. Most of his moveset sucked absolute *** and anyone who tried to incorporate 30+ moves into their game quickly got schooled. However, those who kept themselves to only those eight moves realized Zasalamel was high tier. Sure, people *****ed and moaned saying things like how boring the game was if you only used eight moves or how real pros would use a full moveset, but they were wrong. The true spectacle of a match is watching someone out-think the opponent; predicting their every move and besting them before their plans come to fruition.

Hell, this reason alone is why most people complain about Super Street Fighter II Turbo -- everyone claims it just boils down to a Hadouken spam-fest. Sure, there are the scrubs who spam it, but there are the people who use it; throwing them out to keep their spacing, to fill their super meter, and to control parts of the field.

The fight may not look pretty on the screen, but the real fight takes place on a layer that casual gamers can't see -- the mind -- and a match between professional level gamers will ALWAYS be entertaining no matter how few moves they're limited to.

 

[Problem2]

My friends and I have been playing Brawl+ for about a month now and a few things came up during last weekend after we played around on the new (to us) March 9 codeset. I'm sure these have already been brought to your attention, but I just don't have time to read all 220+ pages (I read back a few pages and only noticed stuff about buffing Jiggs/Marth/Luigi.) in the middle of college tests/presentations (Bleeeeeeeeh. >:|). Just trying to contribute as much as I can.

1. Thanks to the momentum hack, Ganon's side-B in the air continues forward for a considerable distance after he catches an enemy, making it very easy to suicide with it. We originally figured this was going to be gamebreaking as you would only need to be one stock ahead to sweep the rest of the game. After a few hours of playing around with it, nobody had yet to win a game by solely relying on this. If possible, I'd like to go so far as saying to keep this change, as it gives Ganon a bit of a buff, but not one that yells out instant win (You're trading one stock of your own for one of theirs. Clearly this is a much better trade if you're at 150% and they're at 0%, but them's the breaks. It's a gamble.). It leaves you open if you miss, and do it too close to the edge and it's practically death. Not to mention it's hilariously awesome.

2. Again, with the momentum hack, ROB's side-B sends him careening across the screen (About 3/4 the distance of Final Destination, IIRC.). I'd like to give my opinion of this as a ROB main, but despite hours of playing with him I have yet to find a practical use for this outside of fast transportation (For which I'd still rather use glide-tossing.). The damage is still weak and it leaves you very open -- often times flinging you completely off the edge. This only works in the air if you jumped straight up, so using it as recovery is out of the question. Please feel free to look into this more than I had the opportunity to, but as far as I can tell it just makes that move even worse (Not that anyone ever used that move anyway.).

3. My friends and I were playing on two separate Wiis, and within one hour they had both frozen twice (Incidentally, all four times happened on the one I was playing on at the time. Perhaps it has something to do with the tag "CBox".). We had never had any freezing issue before this codeset and we didn't have any more issues for the hours we played afterwards, though I wouldn't deny the possibilty that the freezing may have something to do with the codeset (Also, I believe at least two of the freezes happened on the frozen WarioWare stage (The other two I just can't remember what stage.), so perhaps it has something to do with freezing stages.).

4. This only happened once, but we have NEVER seen it before so I feel it's worth a mention. We played on Pokémon Staduim (The Melee one, not the Brawl one.) and during one of the trasformations (To or from what I don't remember (It happened at the start of the night and I quickly forgot about it until now. Go me.).), I fell through the middle of the stage. Right on through. It was a huge "WTF?" moment for all of us. I was ROB, if you think this makes any difference.

This is all I have to report for now. We hope to all get together soon to play again and I will be sure to let you guys know about any further issues we come across. I apologize if this was all already known.

1. cool

2. I always thought that ROB's momentum forward-b was weird and out of place. However, I'm not up to taking measures to remove it as it is really not better/worse and largely doesn't affect me.

3. Holding the joystick in a direction before the result screen loads results in the Wii freezing. I believe the momentum code is the culprit of this.

4. Happens in VBrawl too. Before Brawl+ was out, my friend was Diddy and fell through the stage while it was transforming. I still have it recorded on my Wii. This happened in Melee sometimes too. It was referred to as a Fox hole (sometimes Roy hole) because it happened to Fox (and Roy) the most.

 

[Cowbox]

3. Holding the joystick in a direction before the result screen loads results in the Wii freezing. I believe the momentum code is the culprit of this.

I mean it froze four times smack-dab in the middle of a match.

 

[Greenpoe]

There's no such thing as an award for using the most moves or providing a flashier match. If the character can win just fine with only using a fraction of their move pool, then by all means keep it that way.

I played Soul Calibur 3 competitively for a while (Until I found out about Variable Cancel, but whatever.), and at the time the best way to play as Zasalamel was to limit yourself to eight moves. Most of his moveset sucked absolute *** and anyone who tried to incorporate 30+ moves into their game quickly got schooled. However, those who kept themselves to only those eight moves realized Zasalamel was high tier. Sure, people *****ed and moaned saying things like how boring the game was if you only used eight moves or how real pros would use a full moveset, but they were wrong. The true spectacle of a match is watching someone out-think the opponent; predicting their every move and besting them before their plans come to fruition.

Hell, this reason alone is why most people complain about Super Street Fighter II Turbo -- everyone claims it just boils down to a Hadouken spam-fest. Sure, there are the scrubs who spam it, but there are the people who use it; throwing them out to keep their spacing, to fill their super meter, and to control parts of the field.

The fight may not look pretty on the screen, but the real fight takes place on a layer that casual gamers can't see -- the mind -- and a match between professional level gamers will ALWAYS be entertaining no matter how few moves they're limited to.

But that would happen no matter what...I mean, look at vBrawl...here, however, we're trying to make it a fantastic game. I'm not saying that you should use every move in your moveset, I'm saying that in Brawl+, we can dictate depth, so let's maximize it.

 

[Cowbox]

I understand.

vBrawl was just a boring game overall because it was slow enough to the point that matches were predictable and everyone either resorted to being MK or projectile whores. Brawl+ is becoming more and more unpredictable and I've seen large matches sway instantly due to quick-thinking.

However, Marth works fine right now. I say we wait and see how the rest of the cast develops before we start working on such minuscule things.

EDIT: Oh, man, I just thought of something concerning ROB's momentum side-B. How well does it deflect projectiles? If it's half-decent, it may be an entirely new way to approach characters such as Falco.

 

[Kiyuzoh]

I've done some crazy things with R.O.B.'s new side-B, and it's too fun. (And yes, I've recovered with it before, also: just up-B, use an aerial, and side-B towards the stage.) It makes projectiles much easier to deal with, and even people who know about it still get surprised every once in a while. Don't get me wrong, it's start-up lag makes it hard to reflect with, but that doesn't make it lame. I'd keep it, not only because of the fact that it gives R.O.B. an offensive option every once in a while, but simply for the lulz.

 

[GHNeko]

ROB's Side B is one of the most popular aspects about him now. The ROB boards love it IIRC.

 

[Cowbox]

Really? I messed around with it for a couple hours but didn't find anything of importance. I'll have to try that recovery technique, though.

I guess I was just looking in the wrong places.

 

[GHNeko]

Really? I messed around with it for a couple hours but didn't find anything of importance. I'll have to try that recovery technique, though.

I guess I was just looking in the wrong places.

LOOKING FOR LOVE IN ALL THE WRON---*brick'd*

A cool thing I noticed, is that if you hold forward when doing the Side B, he doesnt go as far, so you can use that method for mixups and mindgames.

 

[Cowbox]

Dammit, now I want to get my friends together so I can test this. Incorporating a move I never used to begin with into my mind-frame is going to be rough, though.

I am determined to find a way to make this move amazing.

 

[GHNeko]

Dammit, now I want to get my friends together so I can test this. Incorporating a move I never used to begin with into my mind-frame is going to be rough, though.

I am determined to find a way to make this move amazing.

One of the most amazing things about Brawl+ is something that only like 4 people realized.


Training mode has a purpose again! ;D

You know what you doing.

 

[Cowbox]

Training mode would be cool and all if I softmodded my Wii.
...or owned Brawl.
...or owned a Wii. >_>

The current situation is my friends own a Wii, but we only ever really get the chance to all get together and play a couple times a month. Bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

 

[GHNeko]

Oh. Well.

Start working.