The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[OmniOstrich]

Which is my point i raised before. Let's make it harder to recovery. This is making the game harder defensively and easier offensively. If we want to make the game easier to be offensive, we need better defensive options. The ASL edge grab spamming doesn't matter as much because ASL won't register unless you at a certain vertical distance from the edge. Also, in Melee, you can spam grab the edge with fast fall and your second jump.

Where's the consensus in these tweaks? It actually making the game require less mindgames and skill to win. Easier combos, easier edge guarding. Maybe I would be happier with minor tweaks to brawl like attack speed fixes and getting rid of chain grabs and tripping.

Where are the defensive tweaks?

Planking my friend, Planking. The game becomes stupid refer to clutch tournament match found here and you will see the stupidity of ASL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8

 

[goodoldganon]

I used to be for ASL then I saw planking and how OP they were in B+ and it had to be changed. The sweetspot area is MASSIVE and much more forgiving then Melee. Give it a shot, I was a huge ASL supporter, but I can't see my self going back now.

 

[ShortFuse]

It's just that I already got criticism from people saying, "they complain the game was too simplified so they made it even easier." which in regards to being so much easier to string combos and rack%, than vBrawl. When Brawl came out, as a Melee player I was skeptical. Then I started to like the slower pace and more reliance on outsmarting your opponent than whipping out really fast SHFFLs.
Then the holes started to show through. I would have liked Brawl+ to keep Brawl as it was and just fix the small holes (character weight/speed). But now it's like "Let's combo like in Melee." I guess it's just that. I liked the slower pace, where there was more emphasis on outsmarting your opponent. I'm not saying it's not there, since you do need finger skill as well.

But I thought the original plan to keep Brawl the way not start changing the way we play. Now I'm hearing stuff like "Melee was like that." "64 was like that". "It's not the Smash we now". We're making the game faster, removing ASL, making teching harder, comboing easier. This isn't fixing Brawl. This is making Brawl into Melee 2.0. This isn't tweaking. If Melee never existed would you guys have made all these changes?

Maybe it's me and I just had the wrong concept as to what Brawl+ was going to be.

 

[goodoldganon]

I see where you are coming from and I can kind of agree. The game is still 'noob-friendly' and very easy to approach we have just shifted more of a focus on the offense. Without hitstun, the defense becomes too strong again.

I have to ask, have you tried B+?

 

[ShortFuse]

I used to be for ASL then I saw planking and how OP they were in B+ and it had to be changed. The sweetspot area is MASSIVE and much more forgiving then Melee. Give it a shot, I was a huge ASL supporter, but I can't see my self going back now.

I do play it like that. I can manage. I've been playing since 64 days, but I'm just worried about the path we're taking. I loved the idea of stale move negation, harder edge guarding, and making powershield not feeling so random, airdodge being better. It was a new brawl. The more and more we tweak in this direction with Brawl+, the more I feel disappointed it's not Melee. I started looking at older videos of playing Melee (specifically this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clyFGvFdzi4 ) and was looking at the speed and gravity and seeing that's the direction Brawl+ seems to be taking.

Edit:
Yeah I play Brawl+, I have about 15 video on my Youtube page. It's better than vBrawl, for sure, but it's starting to look more and more like Melee and it's starting to worry me.

 

[shanus]

Shortfuse, stale moves was in melee. It only affected damage, stale knockback was only affected by B moves. Using stale moves not only breaks the tilt game, but it also creates unpredictability in a combo game as well. It hurts more than it helps. I'm all for stale moves only modifying damage, but we havent found a way to make it yet.

Also, the gravity changes are not that radically different. In fact,a lot of characters just have faster FF speeds and no changes in gravity. It seems you are greatly misinformed. I recommend you look over the gravity list in the 2nd post and see how we are working to optimize a characters playset and not turn this into an attempt at melee. We are trying to balance chars and make them play to the best they can. Arbitrary speed changes are unnecessary.

 

[Revven]

I have to ask, have you tried B+?

Yes, he has, he as videos up from about a month ago.

Also, Shortfuse, teching wasn't made harder, it's the same window as it is in vBrawl. It's only harder because of hitstun. We have SOME plans to change that if it's a huge problem. For now, we've made it so the tech roll is faster so techchasing isn't as easy to do.

Look, Brawl+ is still in its beta stages, we're still working on ****. If we feel defense is too weak, we'll WORK on something. Right now, the balance seems perfect to me. You can't shieldgrab as much, you can't sidestep spam as much, DDing is good now and so on. Remember, we can change anything that doesn't seem right in the long-run. If defense is weakened to the point where it's fruitless, we'll do something about it. Right now? I find it perfect.

I played five hours of it on Sunday and I had no problems with the defense. If the end result of it makes it feel like Melee, then oh well. Melee just happened to have EVERYTHING right, is it a problem to model the offense and defense balance Melee had? If we go for more defense, offense is then weakened (ala vBrawl) if we go for too much offense, defense is weakened (ala Smash 64).

IMO, the shieldstun feels like it's a mix between Melee and Smash 64. You can't shieldgrab a lot of moves you normally could in Melee because of the pushback and then there's moves you CAN shieldgrab because there's no pushback.

The offense feels more like Smash 64 to me except you can actually DI like in Melee and if you have the right DI, you can survive. Of course, the combos aren't as excessive, they're escapable, there's some setups though that are inescapable.

I understand your concern, Shortfuse, if it ends up feeling like Melee to most people I don't think we've ultimately failed. In fact, it means we've achieved SOMETHING without implementing wavedashing.

Also, the only reason why offense feels so easy is because guess what? Brawl's floatiness is too much to have lower hitstun. If we went with .45 hitstun, I don't think you could get very many combos, if any at all. .485 feels SO good to me right now, there's enough room to DI and enough room to get some guaranteed combos.

Until the defense is nigh useless, I don't see any reason to buff it. It's not useless, it's not super weak. If you know what you're doing, the defense is fine and recovering is fine.

IMO, if it can be picked up easily by most people and can be competitive at the same time, I think that's being successful.

 

[Swordplay]

Just showing my support against ASL

Don't do ASL. ( I assume that stands for auto sweetspot ledge...)

I really like how no ASL has effected characters with Zair such as Samus Link and Toon Link.

Especially with Link. He had no offstage game before but now at least his edge guard game is unique. with zair edge guard. That goes with Samus and TL too.

If you have ASL, you give other characters similar options. Besides, those 3 characters I mentioned need some buffs as they were bad in \/brawl and this is certainly a unique way of giving to to them.

Besides as A Link main I'm actually kind of happy. Links D-tilt spike actually has a chance to work with ASL off.... It's amazing

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

no-ASL adds a TON of depth to the game, and it's not even as good (or as bad, however you want to look at it) as melee's no-ASL. The tether recoveries actually stand out and give ivysaur and olimar (and anyone else) some balance when it comes to getting back to the stage.

i am 100% against not using the no-ASL code.

 

[Greenpoe]

I do play it like that. I can manage. I've been playing since 64 days, but I'm just worried about the path we're taking. I loved the idea of stale move negation, harder edge guarding, and making powershield not feeling so random, airdodge being better. It was a new brawl. The more and more we tweak in this direction with Brawl+, the more I feel disappointed it's not Melee. I started looking at older videos of playing Melee (specifically this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clyFGvFdzi4 ) and was looking at the speed and gravity and seeing that's the direction Brawl+ seems to be taking.

Edit:
Yeah I play Brawl+, I have about 15 video on my Youtube page. It's better than vBrawl, for sure, but it's starting to look more and more like Melee and it's starting to worry me.

We're going by majority rule. There's basic flaws in Brawl.
We're making the game faster->Brawl is just slow. I don't think it should be so fast you must train your mind to comphrehend everything that occurs (such as in Melee or Lightning Brawl), but vBrawl's speed is slow in the sake of efficiency. We can make more stuff happen quicker while taking nothing and adding a little excitement and adrenaline to the gameplay.
removing ASL->This is one of the more controversial changes of Brawl+. I think it'll be debated further, and in the end, will be turned on or off based on which best balances the game.
making teching harder->Are you sure? I thought they were trying to make teching easier. I know there was some discussion about the jumpstart code, and how it made shorthops harder, but not jumping faster, which had some controversy.
comboing easier->Combos are just to balance out the risk/reward system. It helps things flow better. In vBrawl, I remember having to back off from my opponent when I was in control of the situation, just because I knew they might hit me out of my follow-up.

 

[lamelikemike]

lol why is everyone wording this so poorly.

I also think the standard should stay what it has been thus far. taking the auto sweetspoting feature out of brawl, gives the offensive player more options to end what they started by knocking their opponent off stage.

 

[Shell]

This is stoopid.

Please, everyone, let's not continue this old argument (which isn't really directly about Beta 3 and thus doesn't belong in this thread to begin with). Anyone that's new to Brawl+ please PM me and I will direct you to a thread on our forums where we've already covered everything everyone has said here in the last couple pages.

 

[stingers]

Question:

Will Beta 4 introduce any major gameplay changes or just tweak the character balance some more?

 

[shanus]

Question:

Will Beta 4 introduce any major gameplay changes or just tweak the character balance some more?

Right now its more like tweaking things to work better (i.e. buffing samus a bit, fixing ZSS stuns, minor adjustments to a few char physics). And if momentum comes out in good working order, that too.

 

[cAm8ooo]

You said you were reworking the thick skin? Mind tellin whats gonna happen with that?

I like how it is currently

 

[stingers]

Fixing ZSS stuns?

Making her better?

-_-

 

[cAm8ooo]

She's not OP. Her stuns make her unique.

 

[stingers]

NC is probably the only state to have hosted a Brawl+ tournament and we were all in agreement that she was most definitely OP.

I would imagine that giving her her normal stun back would only add to that.

Meh. I guess that's what beta's are for.

 

[Revven]

NC is probably the only state to have hosted a Brawl+ tournament and we were all in agreement that she was most definitely OP.

I would imagine that giving her her normal stun back would only add to that.

Meh. I guess that's what beta's are for.

Hey, get us videos that prove that she's OP and we'll make adjustments accordingly.

 

[stingers]

the only zss vids i have are old when i sucked with her and I can't record anymore because my wii is with nintendo now

I guess my word isn't good enough? Meh. Well, just play around with her and you'll learn for yourself I guess.

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS's Paralyzer needs to be buffed, Stingers. I have frame data to prove it. It's dumb now, and if you saw the data, you'd agree with me. I'm not even arguing dsmash anymore. Just Paralyzer. If you want to nerf her, do it with the things that were unnecessarily buffed, like uair, dash attack, and what have you.

More in general, I've been looking at ways you might buff Power Suit Samus. I think if you changed the trajectory on dtilt so that it went straight up, or even over her head, as opposed to away from Samus, it would be a much better combo move at low percents while maintaining its KO move status at high percents. You might also make her Super Missiles a bit better as far as knockback goes.

On other topics herein brought up, I'm going to throw my lot in with ShortFuse on stale moves. I think it added a lot of depth to the game as far as knowing the qualities of a move. Knowing which moves can be spammed because they get better when stale, and which ones should be saved up. I agree with ShortFuse in a more general sense, too, but I think I've said so before, so I won't belabor the point.

 

[shanus]

ZSS's Paralyzer needs to be buffed, Stingers. I have frame data to prove it. It's dumb now, and if you saw the data, you'd agree with me. I'm not even arguing dsmash anymore. Just Paralyzer. If you want to nerf her, do it with the things that were unnecessarily buffed, like uair, dash attack, and what have you.

More in general, I've been looking at ways you might buff Power Suit Samus. I think if you changed the trajectory on dtilt so that it went straight up, or even over her head, as opposed to away from Samus, it would be a much better combo move at low percents while maintaining its KO move status at high percents. You might also make her Super Missiles a bit better as far as knockback goes.

On other topics herein brought up, I'm going to throw my lot in with ShortFuse on stale moves. I think it added a lot of depth to the game as far as knowing the qualities of a move. Knowing which moves can be spammed because they get better when stale, and which ones should be saved up. I agree with ShortFuse in a more general sense, too, but I think I've said so before, so I won't belabor the point.

We are trying to buff her downsmash right now in the IRC so the stun works. If that works, I'll try and do the neutral B as well.

 

[Dan_X]

So do any of you guys play ICs? What do you think of their downfall speed in beta3? I personally haven't been true to them in Brawl+. I took to other characters and let my skill with the ICs dwindle. Either way, I plan on playing the ICs much more, improving my game with them. In playing them in a few friendlies, I felt that they were to floaty, that they didn't fast fall fast enough. What do you guys think? Do they need to be tweaked? Or should I just shutup and play more? I mean, perhaps it's because I'm not perfectly use to them just yet. Come to think of it though, in fastfalling into a backair I felt it was far to predictable because I was moving so slowly.

 

[ShortFuse]

I'm not trying to put an ASL specific point.
Whatever happens, my Marth will still beast.
My point is, what Brawl+ is becoming. Our focus seems to be "let's make it combo heavier, faster, more penalizing for missing techs"

vBrawl isn't like that. It's slower. I had to work harder for my kills. I couldn't fAir spam. I could fSmash the edges when people tried to recovery. I had to work harder to KO my opponent. I couldn't rely on shieldstuns with fAir into Grab like Melee. Stale move negation and no L-Cancel means I can't spam SHFFL. I can't I had to bait my opponent. I had to trick him. I had to outsmart him. vBrawl is slower but requires a lot more mental input. More emphasis on mindgames. More emphasis on thinking.

I do think Sakurai took it too far, but not entirely too far. I saw Brawl as more of a game where you don't amazingly fast finger reflexes to whip out nice moves. The vBrawl buffer system is proof of that. I can't infinite drillshine=>waveshine=>drillshine in Melee.

But Brawl, as we continued to play it became more apparently broken. But I think we went beyond fixing what's broken about it and started stripping what made Brawl what it is. A slower game with more focus on mindgames.

Brawl+ seems to dampen that aspect and put more focus on stringing combos and, easier (as a Marth main) edge guarding. I think the whole changing the gravity, fastfall, short hop, is taking it a bit too far. Even with ASL. I do understand the planking issue though.

Brawl+ seems like an over the top revamp though. Maybe I would like a less drastic change. Really a Brawl "fix" where you slightly tweak not a re-engineering.

 

[abcool]

Umm also can u make it so Fox's SH is .95 idk why but when i use him he feels to close to the ground and with his ff and gravity settings it's rediculous. other than that, can u guys start implementing the friction code aswell, that excessive sliding is not fun at all.

 

[Malk]

She's not OP. Her stuns make her unique.

I agree that her stuns are unique but if you actually think she is not OP than you either don't know how to play smash or you are playing a different codeset entirely. We shouldn't have to provide you with videos of something that should be obvious to even mediocre players.

 

[cAm8ooo]

@ malk I still think MK is better. Nerf the KB on her armor pieces but otherwise she doesn't need any real nerfs. And to say i dont how to play smash is ridiculous. There's many other people that agree with me that Zamus is not OP including major figures taking part in the making of this codeset. R you goin to criticize them as well? If you want to argue about something, then how about being a little nicer about it and give some evidence of your point instead of just trying to downgrade people who disagree with you?

Do i think Zamus is very good? yes. Do i think we need to just start jumping on the nerf wagon? no. Lets put some thought into this game shall we? Lets get some experience with the characters and see how things play out. As far as her combos, yes, their great. But thier not unstoppable. Many people i see complain about the Up B spike resetting the combo. All you have to do is tech this. If you dont, then you deserve to get punished.

Im not sayin she may not need a nerf in the future. lets just see how things play out a little first. Like i said nerf the armor piece KB and lets move on and look at it after a few weeks once some actual videos of good players are shown.

edit: http://z13.invisionfree.com/BrawlPLUS_Brigade/index.php?showtopic=110Wow. look at all those mediocre players. They must not know how to play smash.

 

[Malk]

@ malk I still think MK is better. Nerf the KB on her armor pieces but otherwise she doesn't need any real nerfs. And to say i dont how to play smash is ridiculous. There's many other people that agree with me that Zamus is not OP including major figures taking part in the making of this codeset. R you goin to criticize them as well? If you want to argue about something, then how about being a little nicer about it and give some evidence of your point instead of just trying to downgrade people who disagree with you?

Do i think Zamus is very good? yes. Do i think we need to just start jumping on the nerf wagon? no. Lets put some thought into this game shall we? Lets get some experience with the characters and see how things play out. As far as her combos, yes, their great. But thier not unstoppable. Many people i see complain about the Up B spike resetting the combo. All you have to do is tech this. If you dont, then you deserve to get punished.

Im not sayin she may not need a nerf in the future. lets just see how things play out a little first. Like i said nerf the armor piece KB and lets move on and look at it after a few weeks once some actual videos of good players are shown.

Whatever I'll try to be nicer but she is easily the 2nd best character in the game at least and it should be obvious to almost anyone. Teching the Up-B doesn't necessary stop the combo if you don't land on the ground to tech in the first place. It's whatever if you don't see that she is OP then we can just leave her as is until the unbalance turns new players off from the game.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I understand you have a tourny soon? Let's see what happens there and report back. That's all im asking, lets find out just HOW good she is before we decide how bad we need to nerf her. A newcomer must understand that this is a Beta. Character balance doesnt happen over night. Why would you leave brawl+ which is soo much more adaptable then Vbrawl where they just live with an OP metaknight. At least here they know if anyone gets too good. They will receive the nerf hammer (and gladly might i add)

edit: Also, im goin to my own big tourny soon. Ill try to get peoples opinions and observe the rapesauce. Maybe my opinion will change. Who knows

 

[shanus]

Whatever I'll try to be nicer but she is easily the 2nd best character in the game at least and it should be obvious to almost anyone. Teching the Up-B doesn't necessary stop the combo if you don't land on the ground to tech in the first place. It's whatever if you don't see that she is OP then we can just leave her as is until the unbalance turns new players off from the game.

Have you played a good G&W yet? Those are scary.

 

[Malk]

Have you played a good G&W yet? Those are scary.

Ya not a fan.

I doubt that many players will actually play as ZSS. The last brawl+ tourney we had was won by a mk and everyone kind of made fun of him a lot for playing him. If someone were to play as ZSS I am sure much of the same would happen.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Whoa whoa whoa....

You had a tournament, and you think that people will stop playing an overpowered character because they have to take a bit of crap because of it?

How much was the pot for this tourney, fifty cents?

 

[Malk]

Whoa whoa whoa....

You had a tournament, and you think that people will stop playing an overpowered character because they have to take a bit of crap because of it?

How much was the pot for this tourney, fifty cents?

NC has an interesting tournament scene.

 

[CountKaiser]

I'm a fan of good G&W. >.> *is totally a G&W main*

The spammability of his smashes is a bit stupid, though.

Anyway, about ZSS. My friend played her a bit. It may be because I suck (which is probably the case), but it seemed absurdly easy for him to combo with her. Her only problem, from what I could tell, was killing.

Bringing in the stun would either set up some combos or set up some kills. As such, it has a possibility of making her OP.

But we won't know until we try. Even though I don't play Zamus, it seems to be a bit of a shaft to take away the unique quality of her playstyle

In unrelated news, am I the only person who mains G&W?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

NC has an interesting tournament scene.

Apparently so. >_>

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Doesn't Zamus' stun time increase with damage? Or am I completely mistaken?

 

[CountKaiser]

If it does, the increase is minimal.

Also, just so this can stop bugging me, why does the defender have an extra frame of hitlag compared to the attacker?

 

[Swordplay]

I'm not trying to put an ASL specific point.
Whatever happens, my Marth will still beast.
My point is, what Brawl+ is becoming. Our focus seems to be "let's make it combo heavier, faster, more penalizing for missing techs"

vBrawl isn't like that. It's slower. I had to work harder for my kills. I couldn't fAir spam. I could fSmash the edges when people tried to recovery. I had to work harder to KO my opponent. I couldn't rely on shieldstuns with fAir into Grab like Melee. Stale move negation and no L-Cancel means I can't spam SHFFL. I can't I had to bait my opponent. I had to trick him. I had to outsmart him. vBrawl is slower but requires a lot more mental input. More emphasis on mindgames. More emphasis on thinking.

I do think Sakurai took it too far, but not entirely too far. I saw Brawl as more of a game where you don't amazingly fast finger reflexes to whip out nice moves. The vBrawl buffer system is proof of that. I can't infinite drillshine=>waveshine=>drillshine in Melee.

But Brawl, as we continued to play it became more apparently broken. But I think we went beyond fixing what's broken about it and started stripping what made Brawl what it is. A slower game with more focus on mindgames.

Brawl+ seems to dampen that aspect and put more focus on stringing combos and, easier (as a Marth main) edge guarding. I think the whole changing the gravity, fastfall, short hop, is taking it a bit too far. Even with ASL. I do understand the planking issue though.

Brawl+ seems like an over the top revamp though. Maybe I would like a less drastic change. Really a Brawl "fix" where you slightly tweak not a re-engineering.

I agree with your analysis but not with your solution. ASL is something we probably should take out.

However there may be other things to look into to give BRAWL its own "uniquness" instead of just being another melee. For example, spot dodge is still much more important in brawl+ than it was in melee.

My interpretation is that we may be taking it to far in the offensive direction. I just want to make sure we retain some defensive things in the game. Right now its all about hitstun.


For me, if I was to change anything it would be to improve teching or take away a little shield stun. But those are just personal opinions. I'm sure the community has the best interest in mind and they won't make Brawl+ a copy of melee.


@ Orca.

IC's are still great. There one of the only characters now with a legit chaingrab. I was playing them today and there still really good. They may seem a little floaty at times but its nothing big compared to the other major weaknesses other characters still suffer in brawl +


Before we can even think about tweaking mid tiers, we have to fix the trash tiers and God tiers to make them viable. Then we continue to tweak these characters and the mid tiers in further beta versions. Remember, it is a project not a 1 day fix.

 

[ph00tbag]

Doesn't Zamus' stun time increase with damage? Or am I completely mistaken?

Neutral b doesn't appear to, from what I've seen. Even so, her dsmash stun at 101% in Brawl+ is still less than her stun at 11% in vBrawl. Since Paralyzer only granted a two frame advantage on hit at 3% in vBrawl, I doubt it increases enough to reach that point in Brawl+.

Also, ZSS doesn't have trouble KOing, from what I've encountered.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I'm another G&W main. He's pretty beastly, even with his ALR nerf (which returns him closer to his Melee counterpart). I like his higher shorthop, allows him to better us the box and turtle, as well as the fishbowl against opponents in the air and on platforms. A smaller shorthop wouldn't benefit him much. His settings seem about right...though I sorta wish the box were a bit less laggy...that's just personal preference. He's well balanced.

I might argue that his judgement hammer is a bit to hard to hit with, but it's more of a joke move anyways, very entertaining, and not to important in his metagame.