xoxokev
Smash Lord
under perfect conditions, my vote is for Ice Climbers
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Best Character Under Perfect Conditions
- Thread starter Praxis
- Start date
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
The obvious choice is Ice Climbers. Sure, you can argue that a perfect opponent will never get grabbed, but then I can just say that under perfect conditions I can powershield everything. One grab = one stock.
Powershield them Pikmin then. And Olimar's grab.
Ice Climbers.
Powershield every hit.
Nana sub every unpower shieldable attack(pikmin latch).
Projectile or Nana to setup.
Grab for KO.
Even if Olimar can latch with any of his Pikmin. He still needs that finishing blow, which with every other character under perfect conditions would end up being a grab, having Nana take it instead ends in death.
Powershield every hit.
Nana sub every unpower shieldable attack(pikmin latch).
Projectile or Nana to setup.
Grab for KO.
Even if Olimar can latch with any of his Pikmin. He still needs that finishing blow, which with every other character under perfect conditions would end up being a grab, having Nana take it instead ends in death.
Olimar's grab range is WAY longer, and you can't PS in the air...
Flamingo777
Smash Apprentice
under perfect conditions my opponent would be jigglypuff on pictochat that would randomly get 70 damage by the stage then trip into my vanish attack and die! xD
No matter who he grabs, he's getting punished (especially under perfect conditions, meaning they will be close, and Oli'll probably be losing a stock since Popo can chain grab alone until Nana has recovered). If he uses distance to outreach anyway, he'll end up grabbing Nana for no damage and desynch setup.
The only time IC's that can perfect shield everything would even need to jump is for edge spike finish, or one of the ice block infinite. So the PSing in the air comment was irrelevant or you misunderstanding something in my previous post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel your pain kr3wman. When I play Falco they're easily my worst matchup.
This is not true. The game at total perfection would be based on power shielding every attack and your out of grab options. At total perfection, all aerials , tilts, smashes and projectiles are useless unless you do it out of a powershield. They can all be powershielded. The only thing tactics you can use to hit your opponent are what you can do out of a powershield. And the best thing in the game out of a powershield is a grab to infinite to instant loss of stock. IC wins, I don't see how this can be argued.
At perfect, IC can spot dodge and perfectly avoid all pikmin. We are assuming everyone is perfectly godly and if it's possible then it will be done. It'd NOT POSSIBLE TO AVOID A GRAB IF YOU GET POWERSHIELDED. Its just not physically possible - you are a a hitstun/frame disadvantage. You can avoid every single pikmin with perfect timing.
Nobody in Brawl has any offensive options if the game is played perfectly. Thus each match would end in a stalemate, or if you assume both characters tried to approach, IC would win.
The difference between spot-dodges and powershielding is that the former is punishable. If you spot dodge every single one of our Pikmin, we can punish for each time you do. Spot dodging every attack is different that Powershielding them, and you can't do that latter with Pikmin.
goodkid
Smash Lord
ICs hands down
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
The damage those pikmin rack up will prove to be pretty useless when I can powershield any attack with actual knockback. Not to mention that I can grab you while you're chucking them. One grab = one death.
Or, another thought, under perfect conditions, Nana would be taking all the damage. Desynch and keep her in front, it's possible.
And you can argue that Olimar will kill with a grab, but you can only grab one Climber. Grab Popo, Nana will punish you.
We start off two far for you to grab while I'm throwing pikmin. A pivot grab puts Olimar far enough to grab one climber while staying out of range of blizzard.
WE can throw a purple and then come in with a grab that would grab on those 2 PS frames.
Also, we can also spotdodge IC's grabs(timed perfectly so it avoids even desynced grabs), while Pikmin grabs can't be spot-dodged since the pikmin have a constant grabbox.
@K2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUeaC7M3oo this one?
Mr.E
Smash Lord
EDIT: Nevermind. In short, what Levitas said.
Second EDIT: Levitas didn't say anything, Edreeses did. Wonder where I got Levitas, must've been looking at another topic at the same time and confused something... Not all projectiles are actually useless, but nonetheless all matches between any two characters would be a draw. All approaches are punishable in a frame-perfect environment, thus nobody would ever bother to approach (else they get punished and lose) and nobody wins.
Second EDIT: Levitas didn't say anything, Edreeses did. Wonder where I got Levitas, must've been looking at another topic at the same time and confused something... Not all projectiles are actually useless, but nonetheless all matches between any two characters would be a draw. All approaches are punishable in a frame-perfect environment, thus nobody would ever bother to approach (else they get punished and lose) and nobody wins.
If nobody approaches, best camper wins.
:034:
Smash Hero
EVERY character gets better when you can react in 1 frame. Of course, some wouldn't get radically better since their characters are just bad in basis and have no real redeeming qualities, and some would rise insanely, but it'd overall be about the same.
In the end, if every character is played in the most perfect of perfect manners - the tier list wouldn't change much. Some would shoot up, but it'd overall be the same...
So basically Meta Knight is still the best.
In the end, if every character is played in the most perfect of perfect manners - the tier list wouldn't change much. Some would shoot up, but it'd overall be the same...
So basically Meta Knight is still the best.
After thinking it through, I'm casting my vote for Zero Suit Samus. She has a frame 1 jab; Zero Suit Samus and Squirtle are the only two who HIT on frame 1 to my knowledge (well, evidently Ivysaur can with Bullet Seed, but that's worthless with perfect SDI since it's unsafe on hit). The strategy is to just walk over to the opponent, powershielding everything, and then jab once you get close enough. They can't powershield jab on reaction since it hits on the first frame, and they can't know when you are going to use it. If you see them start to use anything, you just powershield it or jab it if you have time.
I used to think Wolf and Marth would win with frame 1 invincibility, but their moves don't hit until frames 7 and 6 respectively (if I recall) so those moves can just be powershielded. They will have a perfect defense against most of the cast, but they won't be beating Zero Suit Samus or Squirtle.
Zero Suit Samus has a higher walking speed than Squirtle, and I think her jab has more range. She wins the battle between them. Running is useless by the way; you can't jab out of it.
By the way, jab is the only move Zero Suit Samus is ever using. She will just keep walking over and jabbing you until the jab eventually kills you. You can never hit her so she wins. On some stages, it might be possible to run from Zero Suit Samus forever with some characters, but regardless, I can't imagine any strategy that actually beats her just spamming her jab (to be clear, she's only using the first hit of the jab and then voluntarily stopping).
I used to think Wolf and Marth would win with frame 1 invincibility, but their moves don't hit until frames 7 and 6 respectively (if I recall) so those moves can just be powershielded. They will have a perfect defense against most of the cast, but they won't be beating Zero Suit Samus or Squirtle.
Zero Suit Samus has a higher walking speed than Squirtle, and I think her jab has more range. She wins the battle between them. Running is useless by the way; you can't jab out of it.
By the way, jab is the only move Zero Suit Samus is ever using. She will just keep walking over and jabbing you until the jab eventually kills you. You can never hit her so she wins. On some stages, it might be possible to run from Zero Suit Samus forever with some characters, but regardless, I can't imagine any strategy that actually beats her just spamming her jab (to be clear, she's only using the first hit of the jab and then voluntarily stopping).
Grabs, non-shieldable projectiles, ducking Kirby.
Grabs don't come out on frame 1. They lose to a jab. I think all grabs are so slow, in fact, that you could spotdodge them on reaction. Remember that Zero Suit Samus is inputting her best answer to your grab on frame 1 of your grab's start up; I doubt any grab is fast enough to handle that.
All projectiles can be powershielded. You're describing a class of moves that do not exist.
Ducking Kirby and anyone else who can duck under the jab is interesting; they might beat Zero Suit Samus (but would be destroyed by Squirtle).
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Frame perfect tipper only chain control for Sheik
Everyone who doesn't have a projectile that can stun will be unable to hit her even if they have perfect shielding.
Everyone who doesn't have a projectile that can stun will be unable to hit her even if they have perfect shielding.
PIKMIN
Olimar can use his grab way before you are in range, and the pikmin has a constant grabbox that is not spot-dodgeable.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Olimar because he could camp like the whole match and wouldn't move because of the super-armor on his Whistle, so he'd be able to live forever if the player were "perfect."
For all this "powershield everything" stuff...You can't powershield multihit attacks right (like MK's tornado)? Isn't it physically impossible to powershield those attacks? If so, someone with a multihit attack could just drill away at your shield hoping for a shield poke or a shield break...
Omis
my friends were skinny
There is a lot of discussion here that a person with the ability to grab would win this. i.e. olimar and IC. But as long as we are under perfect conditions couldn't link/toon link stop those grabbers by perfectly timing a bomb to explode as they get grabbed. And if it is link that has the Faux SA then he'd be set up perfectly for an attack out of it? Plus he is one of the best campers anyway, maybe better than olimar.
viparagon
Smash Ace
no he means its actually impossible because of the lag putting up and down the shiled
It takes like about 10 seconds for the bombs to explode. You have to know when you're going to be grabbed 10 second in advance.
Pikmin eat up boomerang, bombs, and arrows.
Powershield the first hit and hold shield until the last hit and you'll PS the whole thing.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
watching a perfect player power shield like a tornado by hitting both shield buttons, one after another like 15 times in a second, that would be epic....
but yea my vote is for wolf
but yea my vote is for wolf
Nami-Tsuki
Smash Rookie
Captain Falcon would totally win. No one would see it coming.
If a tourney like that happened, I think it's be really intense to watch o.o
If a tourney like that happened, I think it's be really intense to watch o.o
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLF!!!!!!!
Hes simply too kool.
Hes simply too kool.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
melee marth
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
In theory, Pokemon Trainer. If you think about it, the concept does make sense, the ability to instantly counter pick anyone you choose. Once you add fatigue, then this very nifty and potentially game breaking concept gets hurt, real bad. While you're at it, add in one turtle that is light, weak, and low ranged, a lizard thing that doesn't do so well at the one thing it's great at (defense), and a large small orange dragon, and PT goes to around mid. Add in low popularity and you get PT's current tier placement.
Sagen du Smash
Smash Journeyman
Sonic because of his ultimate mindgames with advanced players, Wario for his crazy air movements and Diddy Kong for having the best dash attack in the game and the second best projectile.
Mr.E
Smash Lord
All you "omg camping wins olimar 2 gud" people: NO.
That is all. And powershielding the startup of a multihit attack makes you invulnerable to the rest of the attack, or at least long enough to deliver punishment.
At any rate, I entertained the idea of 1-frame attacks. I presumed that the opponent, knowing that only 1-Frame attacks are viable, would simply move in such a manner that ZSS (or anything else with a 1-Frame attack) could never get into a position to use such a move. Hence, stalemate no matter which characters face off. Well, anyone who can move fast enough to avoid them or certain projectiles used as cover fire (e.g.TL's returning Boomerang).
That is all. And powershielding the startup of a multihit attack makes you invulnerable to the rest of the attack, or at least long enough to deliver punishment.
Shellshifting, perhaps? Squirtle is also faster in the air and a smaller target, lending him more to perfect avoidance than ZSS after he gets a hit in.
At any rate, I entertained the idea of 1-frame attacks. I presumed that the opponent, knowing that only 1-Frame attacks are viable, would simply move in such a manner that ZSS (or anything else with a 1-Frame attack) could never get into a position to use such a move. Hence, stalemate no matter which characters face off. Well, anyone who can move fast enough to avoid them or certain projectiles used as cover fire (e.g.TL's returning Boomerang).
I want to see reasons so that I can
Mr.E
Smash Lord
It's the same reason any other random projectile camping can't work: Perfect powershielding. Replace "powershielding" with spotdodging or your fastest attack, since PSing doesn't stop Pikmin latching. Unfortunately, we lack frame data for Olimar's attacks, but I can only assume the Pikmin Toss is too laggy for Olimar to punish a well-placed spot dodge or fast attack used to knock away the Pikmin. Even if he could, Olimar isn't fast enough to corner most opponents into the circumstance and long-range opponents (Marth, etc.) may well be able to punish the Pikmin Toss itself.
KillerSOS
Smash Champion
Oli just because he is untouchable...