itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
nm, i'm happy, wario is the perfect character under perfect conditions, his bite is literally the best move in the game
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The Best Character Under Perfect Conditions
- Thread starter Praxis
- Start date
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
uh....read the op again. it states wario.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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Mario's FLUDD messes up Pikachu's QAC too.
cutter
Smash Champion
How does Wario or any other character beat a completely invincible and unstoppable IDC Meta Knight?
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
getting the first hit and not letting up a lead. you can't defend against wario, so as long as he gets the first hit and keeps thelead, IDC will do nothing
cutter
Smash Champion
...you do realize in this world, both players are playing what is technically called "perfect play"?
metaXzero
Smash Champion
If they are both perfect, neither are going to get a first hit. MK will IDC and wait for an opening, and Wario will wait to PS the attack. Endless stalemate...
Anth0ny
Smash Master
I don't think this kind of topic is possible. If both players are playing perfectly, then the characters wouldn't be able to hit eachother because of perfect spacing, no?
None the less, I'd say Diddy or Ice Climbers would be the best. Perfect banana control or chain grabbing would be unstoppable.
None the less, I'd say Diddy or Ice Climbers would be the best. Perfect banana control or chain grabbing would be unstoppable.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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You pretty much hit the nail of the head there, this thread's title should be changed to "The Best Characters at the Highest Level of Play". This thread is either going to end up reflecting the tier list or end up comparing camping strategies, which it already is beginning to do. I honestly think it would make more sense to just list every character's abilities at the highest level of play and just filter out the redundant details afterwards.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
i feel like diddy and olimar would be wayyyyyy up there if you play them perfectly
Mr.Fakeman
Smash Journeyman
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I always wonder about Captain Falcon, 
...*SiGH*
...*SiGH*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
No. You're just so wrong. What is Mario going to cape? Is Mario going to cape Lucario as he floats back to the stage, simply giving Lucario a little aerial boost, while at the same time giving himself a bit of aerial lag, which puts him in prime position for an aerial? Lucario doesn't need Extremespeed to get back. Hell, he rarely needs his double jump to get back from most characters. Mario should never be able to gimp a Lucario unless the Lucario seriously screws up. FIHL won't do crap, because honestly, what the hell is Lucario doing, performing an attacking move when it won't hit? It works on other, worse recoveries maybe, but not on something that can simply float back to the stage on command. :\
TL;DR version: Mario doesn't gimp Lucario.
JackieRabbit5
Smash Journeyman
couldn't any character be best under "perfect conditions"?
AndrewCarlson
Smash Journeyman
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Well, not perfect but couldn't Pit create a continuous wall of quadruple arrows with perfect accuracy and control?
Takes way too long to set up, without any real reward.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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If you recover from very high that works but otherwise you're pone to the same kinds of guards Mario uses against any other character. You don't want to ever be forced to use a move that would put you into helpless against Mario. If Lucario is forced to use his Up B, expect to be gimped. Anyway, the cape works on Lucario and I'm not sure what you mean by it giving Lucario an aerial boost. As far as FIHL, it prevents Lucario from stalling with his Dair. FLUDD itself kills your momentum so there's also a good chance you'll be forced to DJ. Mario is also good at edgeguarding with his aerials and he can combine them with the cape glide to quickly atk.
Mario has no moves that can force Lucario to use his Up B. Discussion over. Also, theoretically, Lucario's curving options are infinite, as well as allowing him to completely curve AROUND the edgeguarding Mario, or go straight for the wall instead.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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You must be recovering from like the top corner of the stage then, which seems pretty irrelevant since anyone can do that and recovering from that high is near impossible to gimp with anyone anyway.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Extremespeed's options aren't infinite, just very many.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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More importantly, Mario go through every single one of them with the FLUDD and cape.
Oh without doubt, the Mindgames has a instant effect. But camping doesn't always work, it is effective, but not a garrenteed win. If you ask me Camping just delays the game. don't get me wrong Olimar and camping is a great thing to do.
But Marth on Marth it just is a slower game to see which one will approach.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Yoshi, he can use his pivot grab to stop most attacks. And he can use egg lay for grab armor (this works in the air too) so he can live literally forever if you could time egg lays perfectly.
and CG to spike on like 12 characters, which of course under "perfect conditions" would work every time. IDK
and CG to spike on like 12 characters, which of course under "perfect conditions" would work every time. IDK
Eh, I'm just saying that whenever you go in for a physical attack, you can get punished, which in a perfect match, you often would be, but projectiles have a 0% chane of being punished.
If its Marth vs Marth then of course it wouldn't matter. And then you might actually run into "no character moves because anything would put them at a disadvantage.
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
Wouldn't this just be a "final tier list" discussion?
The full potential of a character is ultimatly how good a character is when used perfectly. Whether it's a Marth that spaces aerials and grabs perfectly to a Jiggs who plays safe and capitalizes on every chance or a Fox that can't be hit (melee of course). This is what the end game would be essentially.
Olimar, Pikachu, Wolf, ICs, MK, Snake, Diddy and Wario will easily be some of the better characters at that point.
Olimar - Stays away making you go to him, which is what he wants you to do and he'll crush you for it.
Pika - Wouldn't get punished, everything followed up with a quick attack to safety and jolt camping.
Wolf - Shine every dashA, aerial approach, edgeguard, combined with perfect spacing with his mobility.
ICs - Play it safe and don't get touched then double team into grabs, they wont get seperated much.
MK - Incredible wall of spacing and priority with nothing to get punished from, perfect approach.
Snake - Great spacer that can do everything from infinite dthrow to camp to be unapproachable.
Diddy - Wont let anyone get up unpunished when he gets them with anything, too dangerous to chase.
Wario - Will avoid all attacks and strike on opportunity, never getting punished and gimping every time.
That's what will happen eventually. Perfect Conditions come into play over time in everything.
The full potential of a character is ultimatly how good a character is when used perfectly. Whether it's a Marth that spaces aerials and grabs perfectly to a Jiggs who plays safe and capitalizes on every chance or a Fox that can't be hit (melee of course). This is what the end game would be essentially.
Olimar, Pikachu, Wolf, ICs, MK, Snake, Diddy and Wario will easily be some of the better characters at that point.
Olimar - Stays away making you go to him, which is what he wants you to do and he'll crush you for it.
Pika - Wouldn't get punished, everything followed up with a quick attack to safety and jolt camping.
Wolf - Shine every dashA, aerial approach, edgeguard, combined with perfect spacing with his mobility.
ICs - Play it safe and don't get touched then double team into grabs, they wont get seperated much.
MK - Incredible wall of spacing and priority with nothing to get punished from, perfect approach.
Snake - Great spacer that can do everything from infinite dthrow to camp to be unapproachable.
Diddy - Wont let anyone get up unpunished when he gets them with anything, too dangerous to chase.
Wario - Will avoid all attacks and strike on opportunity, never getting punished and gimping every time.
That's what will happen eventually. Perfect Conditions come into play over time in everything.
Famous
Smash Champion
Actually, the only only character Mario can't gimp 100% is Peach..(If Your using FLUDD and CAPE)
An interesting fact about caping Extremespeed is that you can input which direction you can go anytime during the startup. Furthermore, if Mario capes Lucario during the startup, Lucario can then input a direction on the frame after he gets caped and he'll still go toward the stage.
Try caping a CPU Lucario's extremespeed. It doesn't work; the CPU always input the command at the very last frame possible, so if you cape him, he'll input which direction to go afterwards, letting him go back to the stage.
Yes, you can cape ES while its curving, but a good Lucario will go around you. Yes, there are limits to how far you can curve it, but you can clearly curve it around the Cape's hitbox with a lot of room to spare.
Flood might be troublesome, but then you wouldn't need to curve.
Of course, you can just grab the ledge, but those two alone won't stop Ivysaur.
Try caping a CPU Lucario's extremespeed. It doesn't work; the CPU always input the command at the very last frame possible, so if you cape him, he'll input which direction to go afterwards, letting him go back to the stage.
Yes, you can cape ES while its curving, but a good Lucario will go around you. Yes, there are limits to how far you can curve it, but you can clearly curve it around the Cape's hitbox with a lot of room to spare.
Flood might be troublesome, but then you wouldn't need to curve.
Ironically, those two won't affect the character with the worst recovery, Ivysaur; the tether can latch beyond the range of Fludd or Cape, and can't be pushed back or turned around.
Of course, you can just grab the ledge, but those two alone won't stop Ivysaur.
Do or do not, there is no try.
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
lol yeah they try. But like Ike trying to win, he can't.
HAHA I don't like Ike. .. :\
HAHA I don't like Ike. .. :\
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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Aiming the FLUDD downwards up a chararter moving upwards forces them up higher which allows Mario to cape Lucario's extremespeed if he's forced to use it in an upwards direction at all. If Lucario goes for a wall cling/jump from his extremespeed, Mario can either go for a stage spike or try to cape Lucario if he thinks his opponent can tech it. Anyway, as far as Ivysaur, Mario can still use the cape glide to atk Ivysaur and badly harass his recovery.
Ivysaur's tether is pretty hax though, its like bigger than half of BF... which is approximently the size of Mario's cape glide, so I'd say its 50:50, and kinda useless when you can just edgehog.
I'm just saying the only part of ES that can be caped is when he's actually moving, and the startup, the easiest to intercept, can't actually be caped due to its physics, regardless of whether or not you can reach it.
I'm just saying the only part of ES that can be caped is when he's actually moving, and the startup, the easiest to intercept, can't actually be caped due to its physics, regardless of whether or not you can reach it.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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You still use the FLUDD on it, but yah Lucario can make things very complicated. Still, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Mario can't gimp Lucario but a good Lucario can make things tricky.
Olimar cannot throw Pikman across FD. And if Olimar approaches, he has broke the camp.
Metaknight cannot approach because he has only Melee moves.
A character cannot win without actually damaging the other person. Sure zone, and space for moves that would be executed, however, spacing doesn't deal the damage, the attack does.
Spacing is a technique for utilizing the tool to its max.
Ei: Spacing with Marth allows the maximum effectiveness of his Fair.
Ah, but you forget, what if Olimar approaches only a third of the way? You have to think of stuff other than the extremes. Yes, Pikmin can fly at you from 2/3rd of FD away.