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Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

kevo

Smash Journeyman
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Oh, sorry that I wasn't clear. My question was basically schematics. The stage bans system seems awfully complicated, compounded by the fast that bo3, bo5, bo7, singles, and doubles all have different stage ban rules. It may be difficult to communicate to new players at a tourney. I have a hard enough time teaching people how to stage strike and what DSR means. There's always around 3-4 stages to choose from, which is nice but will tournament players being able to remember all the intricacies with counterpicking? What was your rationale in not just having all matches be 1 ban per player and forgoing DSR for DSRM?

@Crimson I think you're right in your objection in how the back room makes up a stage list. I think the best solution is to see the recommended stage list as exactly that (or maybe a "minimal" stagelist, and TO's can add stages at their own discretion). TO's will naturally want to experiment and see what's best. If they find something that works well, other TO's and members of the community will soon follow suit (isn't that how DSR got started?). Remember, we're not Brawl. Tournament threads won't be denied stickies because they don't follow the recommended ruleset verbatim. The only way to objectively evaluate stages against each other is to put them into practice countless times. I think the BR does take "how stages perform in tournaments" into account, if not they should, and it should be their #1 criteria rather than just theory.
 

ShroudedOne

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Fox and Falco against Peach/Jigglypuff on Brinstar is not auto win. The two floaties can abuse that stage very well, yes. And Fox/Falco have to play differently. But they can still maneuver that stage very well (Fox moreso than Falco).

The set with Rockcrock and Pink Shinobi is always referenced whenever people are arguing about KJ64, and I do not think it should matter, really. I think it's obvious to most that Rockcrock made mistakes during that match, which cost him him (he could have also just banned the stage). The expanse of space promotes camping, I guess, but most characters that you will see in tournament aren't going to get camped that easily by a Peach.

I don't have an opinion on Rainbow Cruise, but that one seems to deal with less player to player interaction, and has more player to stage interaction. So perhaps it should be banned?

Also, bring back Mute City. :) That's really all I have.
 

kevo

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My view on the Rainbow Cruise issue is that it was conceived to control camping, but it's a huge advantage to spacies. While most characters are decently playable on that stage as well, some characters are just plain awful. It was a fun mixup but it exacerbated matchup issues.
 

Bones0

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Bones, you know me, I'm passionate. And I just think we need to have a better way of doing these things. Its obviously not fair to put this much power in one person's hands, and it wouldn't be fair to do it democratically either, because people would just vote with their interests in mind. What we need is a concrete standard, not necessarily the Turnip Threshold like Kish said, but something super well-defined. We have to determine and justify that first before making a list..

I respect them for trying to do something, and I know how hard it is to make a ruleset for this damn game, but things like this are very, very important and change how we are viewed by people outside and unfamiliar with the community. The methodology is the most important thing, and its very sad for me to see us becoming a caricature of the criticisms people mock us for..
If your issue with the rule set is purely about the methodology, then offer systematic methodology that we SHOULD be basing a rule set off of. The supposed "power" Cactuar has in posting this thread is being blown out of proportion. TOs always have the option to simply use their own rule set, which is evidence of the fact that the previous recommended rule set from the back room hasn't been used for years. A large majority of the changes that were made have been already implemented in tournaments, at least to an extent. The other changes are purely concerning the system of playing games, and doesn't inherently favor any character over another.

For the record, PS's advantage for the spacies is greatly exaggerated. Even Taj counterpicked PS against Mango and won. The lack of the top platform lets Marth play PS a lot like FD. The only time he is at a disadvantage is during transformations. At least that's my opinion on it. Obviously I don't want to turn this into a debate about whether PS is good for Marth or not because it's not relevant.
 

Bones0

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Fox and Falco against Peach/Jigglypuff on Brinstar is not auto win. The two floaties can abuse that stage very well, yes. And Fox/Falco have to play differently. But they can still maneuver that stage very well (Fox moreso than Falco).

The set with Rockcrock and Pink Shinobi is always referenced whenever people are arguing about KJ64, and I do not think it should matter, really. I think it's obvious to most that Rockcrock made mistakes during that match, which cost him him (he could have also just banned the stage). The expanse of space promotes camping, I guess, but most characters that you will see in tournament aren't going to get camped that easily by a Peach.

I don't have an opinion on Rainbow Cruise, but that one seems to deal with less player to player interaction, and has more player to stage interaction. So perhaps it should be banned?

Also, bring back Mute City. :) That's really all I have.
PinkShinobi vs. Rock Crock isn't the only example of people getting timed out on KJ64. Smasher89 has also done it, and I'm sure there are others (I've personally done it against my friend in a MM lol). Obviously Peach can't camp out a lot of characters on KJ64, but Fox and Falcon definitely can. It isn't just a handful of characters either. Probably over half the cast could get timed out or at least be forced to overextend themselves greatly to even have a chance at hitting them. It's also worth noting that a lot of the characters that are at a risk of getting timed out often have virtually NO way of attacking. This isn't like a Fox platform camping on DL vs. an ICs player. It is literally impossible for some characters to get a hit without the stalling player making a mistake.
 

Pi

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^Bones I honestly don't think that we can draw the conclusion that stadium isn't as dominant for spacies as the other CP's are for their respective benefactors

We have far far far more gameplay on PS than we do on the other CP's

And there are, as I'm sure you're aware, more matchups that occur on PS than marth vs. the spacies.
 

Bones0

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Absolutely, I was mostly speaking specifically to Crimson because he mains Marth and seemed to be upset that the stage list was spacie-biased.

Obviously there are other matchups, but I don't think stages should be getting banned based on matchups anyway. Brinstar was largely banned because lava is a huge stage hazard that is almost impossible to avoid at times, and it can greatly change the match's outcome. Personally, even as a Falco player, I am not fond of PS (I think the only time I actually picked it in tournament was when I mained Marth lol) because, like lava, the transformations can make or break certain characters, and the transformation process on its own is very disruptive to movement. When you also add in that it is hard to see off the ledge, I am not exactly against a movement to ban PS.
 

Battlecow

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As long as brinstar and RC are banned, I'm good.

Seriously, **** was ridiculous. 'Bout time.

PS should probably be banned too IMO. Too much whackness.
 

ShroudedOne

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I thought about mentioning Falcon and Fox, and yeah, those two should definitely be considered. They've got great speed.

KirbyKaze was explaining in the stream of some tourney a couple weeks back (I forget which one, but I think it was in Canada?) about why spacies don't auto-lose on Brinstar, but I've forgotten his reasoning. Maybe he'd be kind enough to explain it again? I just know that Fox can get good benefits from the lava (i.e. jank uair kills), and has good movement there.

EDIT: See: Colbol vs D'oH
 

DerfMidWest

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hmm... I think that it was definitely necessary to ban metaknight. MK at dreamland is just stupid.

on a serious note:
there should be more than one coucnterpick .-.
I like having brinstar and Rainbow Cruise. we should like... have those.

and lol japes.
I think that could be fun, but idk about how good of an idea it is.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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If your issue with the rule set is purely about the methodology, then offer systematic methodology that we SHOULD be basing a rule set off of.
Others have said this before (notably Fly Amanita), but I think there needs to be a clear mission statement. I think the first step is for everyone to discuss various proposed mission statements and then vote on the one they like best. After that, they may discuss purely in the context of that well-defined criteria.

So lets take an extreme but simple example: lets say everyone votes that the only criteria should be that if there is any element of randomness at all in a stage's design, then it should be banned. If things are on a timer or cycle, then they cannot be banned.

I don't necessarily agree with that criteria, but it would be really simple to make a stagelist with that in mind. Similar criteria can be made for pause rules, controller ports, etc.

The supposed "power" Cactuar has in posting this thread is being blown out of proportion. TOs always have the option to simply use their own rule set, which is evidence of the fact that the previous recommended rule set from the back room hasn't been used for years. A large majority of the changes that were made have been already implemented in tournaments, at least to an extent. The other changes are purely concerning the system of playing games, and doesn't inherently favor any character over another.
Oh I know the MBR has no real power, nor do they claim to. We aren't the brawl community; our TOs have always decided our rulesets more or less. There are benefits of having a backroom-based ruleset, but if we are to be serious about it, and want it to have actual influence on setting a standard for tournament play, then we have to make the methodology something that can be respected.

This grows in importance as more and more tournaments are hosted by people outside the community; commonly held events by the FGC or brawl TOs, or those held at a LAN center/gaming store, often don't have hosts who feel comfortable making a ruleset of their own.
 

MM Distortion

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i probably won't get noticed cause i'm not that big of a player, but i don't think it's a good idea to narrow done the counterpick stages. i feel that its better for players to have more options when trying to counterpick opponents and taking away those stages is getting rid of those options. just my opinion but i think that we should have at least 3 counterpicks. i'm talking about singles btw, just in case i wasn't clear
 

Strong Badam

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DK64 is only spelled "Congo" in the 64 version, and is spelled "Kongo" in Melee. The difference in naming is that KJ64 has "Past Stages" above it while the one with the ****ing rock has DK Island above it.
 

JPOBS

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I addressed the lack of DSR in my post, so you can read that and lmk what you think.
K i'll look at it when i have a little bit more time. But from re-reading the OP it seems like DSR is allowed? maybe I'm just confused, I've really only been skimming.

Side note: who lost on the same stage 3 times? lol Like, why wouldn't you ban it or not strike to it in the first place. XD
Well, at The big house, what seemed to happen often was they strike to a stage. Player X wins. Player Y CPs and wins. Then the next 2 wins for player X were on the same stage that player Y happened to not ban.

An example im thinking of is Doubles Grand finals where lovage and s2j won like 2 matches per set on Dreamland. IDK what raynex and unknown banned, but having 2/3 wins on DL was just like meh.

Plus sometimes you may not know your opponent well enough to know what to ban/strike right off the bat. For example, im fox vs Peach. Just because I initially strike down to FoD to avoid chaingrabs (FD) and peach living forever (DL), doesn't mean I want to potentially play/lose on FoD 3 times in the match. I could take an initial loss, but having to go back is just like :skull:

but i havent read the thread in its entirety yet so i may be missing something.
 

Van.

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The advantage that fox gets from CPing pokestadium is considerably larger than the advantage any other character gets from CPing any other stage.

Except very specific matchup things, like marth-fox and kinda marth-falco. But foxes advantage is much more universal than this- it prob covers like half the cast.

Just curious, can anyone find a link to a match of a top fox losing to a puff on PS?

Well they all prob banned it. We shouldn't have "auto ban" stages legal.

CP's shouldn't influence matches as much as they do now. They should grant marginal advantages, to the point that it isn't obvious where people are going to CP everytime, like with this ruleset where Fox would ALWAYS go to PS against the lighter half of the cast, because its a stage that is simply built for him.

Still, I love love love this ruleset in general
 

Krynxe

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For stalling, I'm wondering if jiggs' sing lock would be a viable way to win or should just be banned. Like in a case where a jiggs is playing somebody, stocks are even (and above 1 to justify not resting, any percent too low to kill with rest couldn't be locked with sing) and jiggs has the percent lead, if the jiggs player just times them out to win the match. Sing is hard as **** to land anyways, so I don't think we'll be seeing this. But I'm still wondering if you guys would find this legitimate or not. As a TO, would you allow it?

Also, I liked KJ64 as a cp stage but I think I understand some of the reasons for its removal. I still believe that it should be a cp stage however. The advantages the stage has for some characters justifies it being a counterpick after all, though matches can be drawn out and campy the stage itself is still very neutral and doesn't have anything excessively abusive. I also come from a bias perspective, considering without KJ64/Brinstar and having DL64 always banned my stage choice is very disadvantageous/limited.
 

Ørn

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Jungle Japes is allowed in doubles? Please tell me that's a mistake.
 

UltimaScout

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There's a lot of posts and I'm not sure if its been addressed yet but I didn't notice anything about stage striking. Did that go away? I feel FoD is the most disruptive stage there is worse than stadium if anything it and stadium should trade places as neutral and counterpick. Its so little you're forced into bad situations quite often. I appreciate japes cause I feel I could in theory beat anybody there if I bait them into klap trap enough... maybe that should be reconsidered? It'd be great without the water... dk 64 is a great idea, although I feel like there are more stages that should be utilized like mk2. The idea of a counterpick is to tip the scales yes...? I suppose the question really is how much.

:phone:
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

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Looks like we're getting closer and closer to using the European ruleset.
Really Glad Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise are banned.
Still sad i dont have Corneria :(
I hope FD is never removed as a neutral, because that will just make all :marthmelee: mains :urg:

I find the fact that Bans in Bo5 sets have been removed very interesting :)
 

rjgbadger

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There are many stages I believe should be a counterpick simply because a combination of variation and strategy. Corneria, Mute City, Brinstar, KJ64, and RBC should be counterpicks.

One counterpick is just rediculous. Why not just make PS a neutral if its the only CP anyway?
 

:Tally Hoes

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I hope people relaize the lava has a pattern but is totally random on the rises and falls time wise an its impossible to predict if you can't focus on it the whole time.

Really I still don't even totally argee with ps being a cp it isn't too much anything for anythin serious i fell like the other cps

My list
Ys
FoD
Dl64
Fd
Bf

Cps
Ps
Kj64 (the camping isn't always the must extreme and I love being on both sides even if its hard under pressure of a crowd and i sometimes miss the extreme camping where you really have to work for it)

:phone:
 

Bones0

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what makes jungle japes viable for tournament matches?
What makes it ban-worthy? lol (if you said Klap Trap I wouldn't completely disagree with you, but you're logic is completely backwards)

There are many stages I believe should be a counterpick simply because a combination of variation and strategy. Corneria, Mute City, Brinstar, KJ64, and RBC should be counterpicks.

One counterpick is just rediculous. Why not just make PS a neutral if its the only CP anyway?
Corneria, Mute City, and Brinstar all have stage hazards that interfere with game play in the form of doing damage to players. RBC forces players to move with the stage (or die). KJ64 is legal in teams, but it poses a SERIOUS threat to stalling in singles matches where one character is at a speed disadvantage.

Why is one counterpick any more RIDiculous than 4 or 47? PS isn't neutral so that players can stage strike (you need an odd number), and its transformations make it the most random.
 
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Neutral stages only. yay!

Edit
What? 8 minutes? What is expected to be accomplished? 8 minutes is the same thing as no timer at all if you're not ARmada vs Hungrybox or Hungrbox vs ARmada. I've stalled hard in plenty of money matches and tournament sets (I play Peach) and the longest I've played a game to was only 7:38. Make it 6 minutes. A campy game of Jigglypuff vs peach should last 6 minutes, and that's a very slow matchup
 

Roneblaster

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I wanna say if we are narrowing down stages to have less jank(which having only 1 CP makes me think we are):

Yoshis Story and FoD should NOT be neutral!!!

Although it does help my character, i say that without thinking about characters or MUs and ONLY the stages themselves.

:phone:
 

Teczer0

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And of course, this is posted three days after The Big House... XD
Speaking of this, I'm curious how many sets were there that were determined by the winner CP the same stage over and over?

Maybe we can take this to the MBR iunno but I'd love to know if you got any feedback from the players on it.
 

Pi

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god i don't even want to get into all this but i'd hate to see our stage selection dwindle even more
and once you ban stages it's sooo much harder to integrate them back into common practice -.-

i'm gonna put a lot of work into 1 large post, and hopefully make an impact on all this
 

DerfMidWest

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SOFA#941
I wanna say if we are narrowing down stages to have less jank(which having only 1 CP makes me think we are):

Yoshis Story and FoD should NOT be neutral!!!
I agree to an extent...
I think we should keep RC and lavaland though, now where will I c/p against sheik?
 

Teczer0

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I'd like to see how a few more tournaments go with a ruleset similar to Big House but I hope we'll eventually see a rise of more stages too.

I sorta dislike the notion that same stages can be used over and over for a set.

Unless I get godlike at CGing spacies on FD I guess.
 

Bones0

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Neutral stages only. yay!

Edit
What? 8 minutes? What is expected to be accomplished? 8 minutes is the same thing as no timer at all if you're not ARmada vs Hungrybox or Hungrbox vs ARmada. I've stalled hard in plenty of money matches and tournament sets (I play Peach) and the longest I've played a game to was only 7:38. Make it 6 minutes. A campy game of Jigglypuff vs peach should last 6 minutes, and that's a very slow matchup
The timer is only to prevent the tournament from lasting forever by forcing the losing player to approach. It should really be as long as possible without forcing the tournament to run off schedule. The timer should be EXTENDED just so stuff like Armada vs. Hbox doesn't result in time outs, and instead gets played out in full. I don't see any reason why we aren't using a 15 min timer. It's not like this is Brawl where every match will go to time and end up making a big difference. It's just a few matchups that take forever.

Although you were probably just trollin', so w/e. LOL

I wanna say if we are narrowing down stages to have less jank(which having only 1 CP makes me think we are):

Yoshis Story and FoD should NOT be neutral!!!

Although it does help my character, i say that without thinking about characters or MUs and ONLY the stages themselves.

:phone:
There's absolutely no reason to take any legal stage off of the list of neutrals to strike from. The only reason PS isn't neutral is to allow stage striking and it was chosen over the other stages because of how random it is. The randomness on YS and FoD is next to nothing.


I agree to an extent...
I think we should keep RC and lavaland though, now where will I c/p against sheik?
Jungle Japes, obviously. ;)
 

trahhSTEEZY

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I wanna say if we are narrowing down stages to have less jank(which having only 1 CP makes me think we are):

Yoshis Story and FoD should NOT be neutral!!!

Although it does help my character, i say that without thinking about characters or MUs and ONLY the stages themselves.

:phone:

typicallll falcon main :awesome: (srsly tho)
 
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