Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Strife]

^ I'm in agreement with this, we can include more stages if we have more bans. KJ64 was a very neutral stage, to the point where tournmanets like Genesis1 included it in the neutral stage list. Between the stage shifting, and low ceiling I'd argue that Pokemon(Spacies) Stadium skews more match up than KJ64 ever could.

And at this point in the metagame I thought we'd understand that theory bros just doesn't work. Saying that fox is overpowered on all of the stages is fallacious because even when the stages were available he was never op. in the pass 8 or so years Fox has never been an overcentralized character(in terms of victories and not usage). And we've seen enough Peaches and Puffs get scraped on Brinstar to know it's not a broken stage.

I think it was mew2king who said that the game is gonna get boring if we're playing on the same 6 stages over and over again. One of the great things about the game is diversity, and that is being diminished more and more, it simply cannot be good for the longevity of the game.

 

[Bones0]

You guys keep acting like any of the stages were banned because of bad matchups. It's getting tiring to see people constantly bringing it up when no one has justified a stage ban based on bad matchups. Brinstar and RC are banned because regardless of what matchup you're playing because it interferes with game play and leads to inconsistent results.

As far as KJ in singles, I REALLY wish it were possible, but with the current system it just won't work. What I WOULD like to see is characters getting chosen before stage bans and stage strikes. This would greatly reduce stages being chosen to surprise counter people who could have no way of knowing what their opponent was thinking. As it currently is, if two people are playing Fox dittos, at any time in the set one player could go FD and completely screw their opponent over by switching to Marth so he can chain grab. If the other Fox's only secondary is Sheik, then he's screwed either way. He either has to play Fox vs. Marth or Sheik vs. Fox. If characters were chosen before the stage, he would see his opponent go Marth and would have the opportunity to ban FD in the first place.

This could potentially bring back the possibility of using KJ64 in singles, but even then it will be a stage that certain characters simply have to ban every time or run the risk of getting easily timed out, and without stage bans in bo5 it basically forces people to play a secondary. You could try to compile a list of characters that can get timed out and allow them to ban the stage, but the is obviously dangerous territory for a few reasons.

 

[Strife]

You guys keep acting like any of the stages were banned because of bad matchups. It's getting tiring to see people constantly bringing it up when no one has justified a stage ban based on bad matchups. Brinstar and RC are banned because regardless of what matchup you're playing because it interferes with game play and leads to inconsistent results.

As far as KJ in singles, I REALLY wish it were possible, but with the current system it just won't work. What I WOULD like to see is characters getting chosen before stage bans and stage strikes. This would greatly reduce stages being chosen to surprise counter people who could have no way of knowing what their opponent was thinking. As it currently is, if two people are playing Fox dittos, at any time in the set one player could go FD and completely screw their opponent over by switching to Marth so he can chain grab. If the other Fox's only secondary is Sheik, then he's screwed either way. He either has to play Fox vs. Marth or Sheik vs. Fox. If characters were chosen before the stage, he would see his opponent go Marth and would have the opportunity to ban FD in the first place.

This could potentially bring back the possibility of using KJ64 in singles, but even then it will be a stage that certain characters simply have to ban every time or run the risk of getting easily timed out, and without stage bans in bo5 it basically forces people to play a secondary. You could try to compile a list of characters that can get timed out and allow them to ban the stage, but the is obviously dangerous territory for a few reasons.

Your post seems like a very big contradiction. You start of by saying it has nothing to do with matchups and then you go on to stress how people can counterpick stages by using Marth on FD against Fox, or having to play Shielk against fox. The only point you made is the point you say that you're not making!

How does KJ64 interfere with gameplay and lead to inconsistent results? I've never seen any centralizing strategy being dominant on KJ64, and I can't even think of a major upset anytime recently on that stage. I'd like to hear your argument against it.

And You're talking like Pokemon Stadium does not interfere with gameplay and lead to inconsistent results, How many spacies win sets simply because they allowed to cp Pokemon Stadium? I think the argument people like to make against KJ64 is that it allows Fox to camp easily(the super theory bros again that I say doesn't work), but the dip in the middle of the stage makes this a lot more difficult and the floating rotating platforms make it a lot easier to catch him, not to mention the high ceiling makes it a lot more difficult for him to kill you. A camping fox on PS is way more tourblesome on Pokemon Stadium than KJ64, and I really doubt to many people disagree with that,

 

[Bones0]

Your post seems like a very big contradiction. You start of by saying it has nothing to do with matchups and then you go on to stress how people can counterpick stages by using Marth on FD against Fox, or having to play Shielk against fox. The only point you made is the point you say that you're not making!

How does KJ64 interfere with gameplay and lead to inconsistent results? I've never seen any centralizing strategy being dominant on KJ64, and I can't even think of a major upset anytime recently on that stage. I'd like to hear your argument against it.

And You're talking like Pokemon Stadium does not interfere with gameplay and lead to inconsistent results, How many spacies win sets simply because they allowed to cp Pokemon Stadium? I think the argument people like to make against KJ64 is that it allows Fox to camp easily(the super theory bros again that I say doesn't work), but the dip in the middle of the stage makes this a lot more difficult and the floating rotating platforms make it a lot easier to catch him, not to mention the high ceiling makes it a lot more difficult for him to kill you. A camping fox on PS is way more tourblesome on Pokemon Stadium than KJ64, and I really doubt to many people disagree with that,

I was talking about the ban-counterpick-switching characters trap that happens when you don't choose characters before stages. I brought it up to show that even with this system in place, KJ64 is still extremely over centralizing. If you really don't think camping on the stage is a problem, you must just not know what you're talking about. It's virtually impossible to hit a good player running away. Go try it to your friend who plays any slightly slow character. Just run away and laser all game. It's not hard. It's not risky. It leads to free wins.

I never said anything about PS, so don't put words in my mouth.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm not sure that I agree about players having to make their character choices known beforehand, Bones. What if I have a problem with Sheik/Peach (me being Peach) so I decide to go Fox, and then they go Marth (which I'm not as strong in)?

Or am I misreading what you're suggesting?

(Also, I've come around on the ruleset/matchup thing. I really don't think that MUs themselves are that important to take note of when making a ruleset.)

 

[Niko45]

Peach/Puff on Brinstar >> Spacies on stadium...

And it's because the stage itself is so influential

At the very least people need to please stop acting like stadium for spacies is the counterpart to brinstar for peach/puff because it is much much more common for spacies to lose on stadium than for peach/puff on brinstar.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach's best level isn't even Brinstar, it's Mute City.

Bring back Mute City.

 

[Bones0]

Characters have a much larger impact on the game than stages. As a result, it makes the most sense to decide on characters first. The problem you pose is going to happen regardless of whether or not you pick the stage first. SOMEONE has to pick their character first, but picking the stage after the characters are selected simply prevents you from having to play a surprise character on a stage you thought you were choosing for a different matchup entirely. Two scenarios assuming you won game 1:

Scenario A
1. You ban a stage
2. They counterpick a stage
3. You choose a character
4. They choose a character

Scenario B
1. You choose a character
2. They choose a character
3. You ban a stage
4. They counterpick a stage

You can see from looking at Scenario A that both your character and stage selection are very blind. You have no way of knowing if they will change characters, so how can you possibly be expected to ban an appropriate stage? In B, the loser still has the advantage of picking their character second, but even if they choose a character that will counter yours really hard, at least now you know the match up and can ban the right stage.

Simply put, we don't strike stages and then choose characters. Why would we do our bans any different?

Disclaimer, I only believe this helps when you have bans. If there are no bans like in bo5s, then I think the best order to do things in would be:
1. Loser chooses character
2. Winner chooses character
3. Loser chooses stage

This again serves the purpose of not making the winner of the first game guess at what character or stage their opponent will choose.

 

[L1F3]

Most of the argument for more stages consists of the fact that spacies are too strong in this ruleset, not being able to be counterpicked. Notice how in these stages, spacies get a buttload of advantages.

then dont counter pick them against spacies lol sure, they are the best characters in the game, but that doesnt mean that everyone plays them either. besides, not everyone knows how to use their character to their maximum advantages anyways, in any practical sense. the spacies have poor air movement, mewtwo and jigs can exploit stages like RC better than them. obviously no one in their right mind would CP Corneria vs the spacies either.

although i think it would be interesting if characters themselves got specific stage bans in certain match ups. say a fox loses to a peach in game 1. fox has a lot of stages he can use to his advantage, so it would make sense for the peach player to ban Corneria for obvious reasons, but if the player isnt that well informed and bans Brinstar instead... well el oh el

i have more i want to say on this, but i'll save it for later

@Bones, the winner shouldn't even need to change their character. why should they have the option of picking a potentially better character when they already won in the first place? It's much more fair and fundamental to have the loser either change characters or opt to counter-pick a stage. One or the other, not both, things just get too complicated. If they change characters, the next stage should be random (remove the stage the winner won on from the random select, and add the counter picks, perhaps? or keep only neutral..? that actually sounds interesting lol), if they chose to CP a stage, then both players keep their characters and keep playing.

i mean, the point of counter-picking already gives the loser their "advantage", so theres no need to do both. doing both character changes and map CP is just negating the first one, and even potentially screwing over the loser more than helping :/

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

obviously no one in their right mind would CP Corneria vs the spacies either.

Chu dat used to CP corneria vs spacies after FD was used, back in the MLG days

 

[Strife]

I never said anything about PS, so don't put words in my mouth.

Then you agree that PS should be banned?

 

[KishPrime]

Peach/Puff on Brinstar >> Spacies on stadium...

And it's because the stage itself is so influential

At the very least people need to please stop acting like stadium for spacies is the counterpart to brinstar for peach/puff because it is much much more common for spacies to lose on stadium than for peach/puff on brinstar.

I don't think this is true at all, but I'm curious who agrees.

I actually liked FoD more against some space animal players back in the day and I picked that over Brinstar against players like KDJ and Mathos (who I beat there). Totally depended on how the opponent played. Players that were really bad at stage control, I took to Brinstar/Mute (whichever wasn't banned) because you could just wait for them to make mistakes half the time. Players that were good at stage control did fine on Mute/Brinstar.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm not sure that I agree about players having to make their character choices known beforehand, Bones. What if I have a problem with Sheik/Peach (me being Peach) so I decide to go Fox, and then they go Marth (which I'm not as strong in)?

Or am I misreading what you're suggesting?

(Also, I've come around on the ruleset/matchup thing. I really don't think that MUs themselves are that important to take note of when making a ruleset.)

At this point in time, it should be pretty easy to figure out what character a player uses, normally all you need to do is minor research on youtube and figure out tactics to beat him before a tournament match. At worst, you can just double blind I guess?

 

[Bones0]

@Bones, the winner shouldn't even need to change their character. why should they have the option of picking a potentially better character when they already won in the first place? It's much more fair and fundamental to have the loser either change characters or opt to counter-pick a stage. One or the other, not both, things just get too complicated. If they change characters, the next stage should be random (remove the stage the winner won on from the random select, and add the counter picks, perhaps? or keep only neutral..? that actually sounds interesting lol), if they chose to CP a stage, then both players keep their characters and keep playing.

i mean, the point of counter-picking already gives the loser their "advantage", so theres no need to do both. doing both character changes and map CP is just negating the first one, and even potentially screwing over the loser more than helping :/

There's no reason a player shouldn't be able to change their character, regardless of whether or not they won or if their opponent changed.

Then you agree that PS should be banned?

Yes. I've already said so in this thread.

At this point in time, it should be pretty easy to figure out what character a player uses, normally all you need to do is minor research on youtube and figure out tactics to beat him before a tournament match. At worst, you can just double blind I guess?

Not everyone has a video on YouTube. lol Double blind would certain be interesting for counter picks, but it is almost worse because it leads to guessing as opposed to just picking your best character (see: Armada vs. Hbox).

 

[Mew2King]

puff peach on brinstar is not better than spacies on stadium.

I'd almost go as far as to say it's almost pointless to not be fox or falco on pokemon stadium. Same applies to rainbow cruise. No point to pick a non-spacie on those stages.

In Melee, Rainbow is a worse stage than brinstar. Brinstar doesn't have a clear one character ****** another as Rainbow and Pokemon stadium do for spacies. If a stage has it where there becomes NO POINT to use someone other than 1 (or 2) characters, I think the stage should go. In pokemon stadium's case, it's kind of neutral and I wouldn't just say it should go, but it's definitely the most broken of the neutrals, because of the existance of fox and falco (and that is the only reason).

I can see a case being made to ban or to keep pokemon stadium.
I can also see a case being made to ban or keep brinstar. (probably ban only because the lava has a pseudo-random element).

but I cannot see any reason Rainbow should ever be legal, ever. If you aren't a space animal there, you are heavily disadvantaged. Glad it's not in this ruleset.

 

[Bones0]

Why are spacies so good on PS? lol The only reason I've ever been given is the ceiling is low and the transformations are jank, but the ceiling is BARELY any lower than BF.

 

[Jim Morrison]

We ban items for their impact on gameplay and it takes away from the player vs player's skill. Why not stages that impact this noticably?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

False. We banned items because crates and capsules randomly are empty and explode instead of having items.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Oh. Disregard that I suck c

 

[Mew2King]

stadium's ceiling is quite a bit lower than battlefield

stage height of neutrals

god tier - dreamland

2nd - FoD
close 3rd - battlefield

4th - FD
close 5th - poke stad

6th - Yoshi's story

not to mention only that, but as far as the main-platform of these stages, pokemon stadium's stage is even longer than FD's main stage (platform) is. More room gives these guys better options to run away laser. Smaller stage by comparison is worse for them, since their weakness is being thrown off the stage.

3rd, the stage transformations give these guys a big advantage more than other characters, specifically because of shine's power against walls (both for fox and falco).

With that said, I'm still leaning against banning poke stad, and towards banning brinstar, however, I can see a case being made to keep or ban pokemon and to keep or ban brinstar. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Divinokage]

Why are spacies so good on PS? lol The only reason I've ever been given is the ceiling is low and the transformations are jank, but the ceiling is BARELY any lower than BF.

Beats me, I also don't see why spacies are supposed to be extremely good on PS as opposed to FD.

 

[Mew2King]

I just explained it kage

i didn't even factor in that you can't chain grab spacies much at all on poke stad.

Considering how good spacies are as a character, being able to chain grab isn't bad, because it balances them out. FD balances spacies out (even though they can just ban it, making them broken again). But considering that they are both broken characters normally, giving them an even bigger buffer (via pokemon stadium) would be bad.

from a ganon perspective I might argue that it wouldn't apply. You can get fast kills on the sides quicker on poke stadium slightly as opposed to FD, and chain grabbing is irrelevent for you pretty much anyway vs those 2 characters, so I can understand from a ganon's point of view why you wouldn't notice that.

 

[KishPrime]

I believe that platforms actually make controlling space easier for spacies as well. It gives them a much greater ability to run away if a situation becomes disavantageous than you have on FD.

 

[Mew2King]

depends the MU. Lots of characters need FD to fight spacies well. Take like pichu vs spacies. You need FD for poor pichu to have the advantage. It makes pichu stronger and spacies weaker.

Take pokemon stadium. Many people already consider falco and fox to be the best characters. Why should we make them even stronger? As I said, I'm still against banning it, but not by too much. It might be a ban worthy stage, because of making spacies even stronger by quite a bit.

I think it's fine right where it is as a counterpick.

-most room to run away laser for both characters
-every one of the 4 transformations benefits them more than other characters
-lowest ceiling great for fox

It's the strongest neutral of the 6 by making broken characters even more broken.

on Rainbow this holds even stronger. Fox/Falco get even bigger buffs.

I think Rainbow should be banned 100%.
Poke Stad is fine as a counterpick.
And brinstar is in the middle. It could be fine as a counterpick, or fine being banned. I think either is acceptable.

I don't care too much either way what you guys do, but I'm still giving my honest input.

 

[Devil Ray]

well, if you can ban any stage, does it matter if stadium is on or not? and if it's not in the neutrals it won't be played in any first matches anyway.

also, can someone explain why there are no stage bans in BO5 sets?

 

[Strife]

Mew2king, what do you think about KJ64 being banned?

 

[tarheeljks]

the spacies have poor air movement, mewtwo and jigs can exploit stages like RC better than them.

falco's jump/vertical movement is a big asset on rainbow cruise


edit: he can navigate the stage as well as anyone. jigglypuff is more horizontally mobile in the air, but it's not really fast so it seems less menacing due to the moving around


edit2: due to the stage moving around

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'd almost go as far as to say it's almost pointless to not be fox or falco on pokemon stadium.

I'm inclined to disagree with you, cause as a Peach, I don't really mind Stadium against spacies (I wouldn't CP there by any means). But at the same time, I can understand why non-spacies would never want to go there. I dunno. I think that banning Stadium might be a little drastic.

 

[Blacknight99923]

**** MBR why'd you ban metaknight, I was hoping to counterpick him vs shiek.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm inclined to disagree with you, cause as a Peach, I don't really mind Stadium against spacies (I wouldn't CP there by any means). But at the same time, I can understand why non-spacies would never want to go there. I dunno. I think that banning Stadium might be a little drastic.

I think it is too, I don't think the buff the spacies get in general is all that massive like M2k implies and I also don't think spacies are broken all that much either, if they were then they should auto-win a lot more than right now but i've seen a lot of them fall on that stage so.. There's no really concrete proof as to why PS should be banned just because spacies are good on it. Other characters can definitely do something about it, it's never a guaranteed loss. I mean I think we gotta look at other stages too, if let's say Marth beats spacies on Yoshi's then he should be banned now? No, because you do need a certain balance at least. All stages will shift the matchups one way or the other. With the 6 stages right now in Singles, then I really don't see how anyone can complain.

As for Japes in doubles, I'm still wtf about that...

 

[Deleted member]

**** MBR why'd you ban metaknight, I was hoping to counterpick him vs shiek.

that was all me baby. suck it and die.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah stadium has a couple perks spacies like, but id hardly say its much worse than other neutrals (and definitely not as bad as other CPs)

 

[LLDL]

It's funny, I rarely see people playing on stadium nowadays. Maybe it's because it's the first ban that comes into mind when playing against a spacie, leaving FD and Battlefield as more favorable options. Now I think I'll see it even less. People will just say "no counterpick" (meaning ban stadium), leaving the player to once again select from neutrals. We'll see how it goes. It may not benefit spacies as much as you'd think. With stadium banned, we tend to stray away from FD against characters that chain grab us. I also usually stay away from Yoshis and FoD because they don't leave much space at all for camping if I need to. That leaves me battlefield and dreamland, two stages I beleive to be neither beneficial or harmful to spacies.

 

[Bones0]

It's funny, I rarely see people playing on stadium nowadays. Maybe it's because it's the first ban that comes into mind when playing against a spacie, leaving FD and Battlefield as more favorable options. Now I think I'll see it even less. People will just say "no counterpick" (meaning ban stadium), leaving the player to once again select from neutrals. We'll see how it goes. It may not benefit spacies as much as you'd think. With stadium banned, we tend to stray away from FD against characters that chain grab us. I also usually stay away from Yoshis and FoD because they don't leave much space at all for camping if I need to. That leaves me battlefield and dreamland, two stages I beleive to be neither beneficial or harmful to spacies.

Except there's no banning in bo5s, so you're getting taken to FD regardless.

 

[Pi]

Brinstar and RC are banned because regardless of what matchup you're playing because it interferes with game play and leads to inconsistent results.

this was the first stupid thing i've seen u say in a while.


@chainaceprobably cause it got moved to a CP

when stages get banned, or moved to CP, they inevitably get played less and less
and people become more unfamiliar with them, unless their character directly benefits from them as a CP,due to not spending the time required on them to become as comfortable on CP stages as neutral ones which are played ALL THE TIME cause they're always on during friendlies
they eventually get phased out and then the vast majority of players do not want to bring them back into rotation cause they are unfamiliar with them and don't want to play on a stage that is such

that's why i really urge the inclusion of more stages rather than less, once a stage get's banned, or even move to CP, you'll have a much much much harder time re-introducing it into competitive play -.-

 

[Bones0]

Are you going to elaborate, or should I just give you the benefit of the doubt that what I said was somehow incorrect?

 

[JPOBS]

People that argue from the perspective "spacies are already so broken, we shouldnt give them PS too" need to understand something: theres nothing wrong with the game having a best character. People keep trying to argue which stages should be banned based on trying to balance all the characters, because that is entirely not the point at all :|

 

[Pi]

Are you going to elaborate, or should I just give you the benefit of the doubt that what I said was somehow incorrect?

RBC is on a predictable, very easy to adjust to and remember pattern, with no lasers shooting you, no shy guys flying through
the only thing that was ever argued about this stage is that it forced approach

on brinstar, the lava comes up, oh no. it doesn't just appear, it rises slowly from below and may force you to reposition yourself on the stage

with enough playtime on these stages, enough time devoted to learning their nuances, i can see neither of these events, the rotation of RBC, or the lava on brinstar ever producing inconsistent results between two players

at the very least, no more than when people don't account for shy guys or randall on YS
or platforms shifting on FoD

the same goes for most of the CP/banned stages

 

[ShroudedOne]

The argument for RC isn't that it's a random stage, the argument is that you end up doing less fighting and more moving around, due to the stage. The stage determines the pace of the match, not the players, so you could just be a spacie (or Falcon, I think) and run away forever. At least, that's the argument as I understand it.

 

[Wake]

I think PS is a nightmare for a lot of characters against spacies, including Peach, basically for the reasons M2K listed.