Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Landry]

lol @ the fallacy discussion going on in here. What is this, freshman seminar? I support this ruleset, btw.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

A tournament is a competition to find the best player among the attendees. In order to make the results are accurate as possible, the most fair rules available should be used. Stages that change the dynamic of the game have a metagame that is isolated from the metagame of neutrals. On neutrals there is often the dynamic between trapper and trapped, however on stages such as rainbow cruise that dynamic is destroyed as there is no trapping.

Players are not expected to play nice. Tournaments are play to win and every player should use any advantage they can get within the rules. Just like government prevents companies from abusing their workers, a TO is expected to prevent players from abusing each other by putting rules up to stop that. I think the rules speak for themselves; strategies on counterpicks are drastically unfair.

In order to maintain some sort of objectivity, it was unspokenly deemed that the neutral stages we have used for years were the standard for how we expected the game to be played. It has always been known that counter pick stages favor certain strategies and characters, but they were tolerated because of the margin of error that was still in the game.

At this point, technical skill and patience is at a spot the game has never seen it. Armada has timed out hbox repeatedly. At SMYM Cosmo timed out several people in a row. I don't watch many videos but I wouldn't be surprised if other players aren't doing similar things. If they aren't, they should be. Hax recently made a thread about how strong defense is in melee.

So with the metagame shifting in such a defensive direction, is leaving stages that give further defensive advantages necessary? Do we need stages that not only give advantage to certain defensive strategies, but also make it nearly impossible to navigate for certain characters? If peach breaks the floor on brinstar, how is marth expected to attack her?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

So with the metagame shifting in such a defensive direction, is leaving stages that give further defensive advantages necessary?

Isn't the entire point of the CP system to prevent specific instances like Peach breaking the floor vs. Marth on Brinstar? If not, can't we just modify the CP system until it CAN prevent these specific instances?

 

[Kal]

A tournament is a competition to find the best player among the attendees. In order to make the results are accurate as possible, the most fair rules available should be used.

This isn't a very well defined notion. If I win with Brinstar on, and I lose with it off, am I not better at the first game (Меlee with Brinstar) and worse at the second (Melee without Brinstar)?

Stages that change the dynamic of the game have a metagame that is isolated from the metagame of neutrals. On neutrals there is often the dynamic between trapper and trapped, however on stages such as rainbow cruise that dynamic is destroyed as there is no trapping.

This isn't inherently bad, though. Just because the metagame is different with the non-starter stages (I refuse to call them neutral because the word creates a misnomer which provides ammunition for the pro-ban point of view) doesn't mean that it's worse. Again, you're saying "we prefer the metagame on these six stages." It's fine to prefer that, but once you start forcing everyone else to play according to that preference, I have a problem.

Players are not expected to play nice. Tournaments are play to win and every player should use any advantage they can get within the rules. Just like government prevents companies from abusing their workers, a TO is expected to prevent players from abusing each other by putting rules up to stop that. I think the rules speak for themselves; strategies on counterpicks are drastically unfair.

What makes these unfair? Not having Brinstar on means Peach will have a harder time being able to beat characters like Marth, Fox and Falco. So then arguably Peach gets shafted by having Brinstar banned. Please, elaborate on this notion of "fairness" with regards to these stages.

In order to maintain some sort of objectivity, it was unspokenly deemed that the neutral stages we have used for years were the standard for how we expected the game to be played. It has always been known that counter pick stages favor certain strategies and characters, but they were tolerated because of the margin of error that was still in the game.

It's fine if that's the metagame you guys want to play. It's not what I want to play, and it's not fair to expect the rest of us to do so.

At this point, technical skill and patience is at a spot the game has never seen it. Armada has timed out hbox repeatedly. At SMYM Cosmo timed out several people in a row. I don't watch many videos but I wouldn't be surprised if other players aren't doing similar things. If they aren't, they should be. Hax recently made a thread about how strong defense is in melee.

So with the metagame shifting in such a defensive direction, is leaving stages that give further defensive advantages necessary? Do we need stages that not only give advantage to certain defensive strategies, but also make it nearly impossible to navigate for certain characters? If peach breaks the floor on brinstar, how is marth expected to attack her?

None of these things you've mentioned warrant a ban, really. You shouldn't be banning stages according to modern trends in the metagame, and you shouldn't be banning stages to try and encourage gameplay according to how you want it to be (in this game, you want a shift towards aggressive gameplay).

With regards to making it "nearly impossible to navigate for certain characters," these arguments tie in with brokenness. If you can show that these aspects actually break the game, and aren't just examples of some character strengths and weaknesses, then that could lead to a legitimate ban of these stages.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm hungry. What's everyone eating ATM?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Im eating zergs on the ladder

edit- CSL match in an hour, i got matched up against none other than our very own Daniel The Seraph!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kal, yes we should ban stages based on trends in the metagame. Changing the ruleset is somewhat like balancing a game, you change it based on experience when you see a better solution. Take blizzard's +1 range increase for immortals. If people would have said that needed to be changed a year ago, nobody would agree since the game hadn't progressed to the point where that was an issue. Now it has and it was changed. Our stage list follows a similar pattern. Nobody abused pokefloats enough to make it banned until a few years ago. Now people are abusing brinstar and rainbow cruise to the point where it is deemed too strong.

And man, if you don't want to play with the rule set, nobody is making you. This rule set is probably the fairest to be made so far. And by fair i mean it does not favor one character over another.

 

[Luma]

kal, this is only a recommended ruleset, nothing else.
dont like it? dont use it. and now plz, stop argueing like a ******, thx...

 

[Strong Badam]

I would attend a tournament Kal hosted if it were near me. Rulesets need experimentation. While not entirely out of the question, the MBR recommended ruleset is one of infinitely many possible ones and thus may still not be optimal.

 

[Niko45]

Kal you know this argument has been made a billion times already in many many threads right...

you're not saying anything groundbreaking or inspirational so please give up.

and its funny cause when pressed on actual gameplay on brinstar it instantly jumps to character matchup balance and how peach "needs" that stage or she's getting shafted which is not only irrelevant but was already refuted earlier since a horrible stage for her (RC) is simultaneously removed.

 

[Mike G]

Yeah, pretty upsetting when he mentioned peach needed that stage to actually keep up with the other good characters...

I never counter picked that stage ever in my competitive melee lifetime and the only times I ever had to counter pic was on mute city vs Isai's sheik and KeepspeedN's sheik(and this was all before like...2007 lol)


And I've never seen Armada resort to CPs either.

 

[Winston]

^ Genesis 1 and Mute City?

 

[Mike G]

welp disregard my last my last sentence.


among other slight advantages, there's no ledge for shieks to grab on mute city.

 

[Kal]

And man, if you don't want to play with the rule set, nobody is making you. This rule set is probably the fairest to be made so far. And by fair i mean it does not favor one character over another.

I didn't say anyone was making me use this ruleset. I don't see why people keep making this argument, as though I'm worried the Cactuar will personally fly down here and make sure I don't turn Brinstar on.

Also, please elaborate how it does not favor one character over another. A question about whether a character is "favored" by a particular set of stages is incredibly complex, and requires analysis with regards to all of his matchups. It seems to me that, with a few exceptions (Peach/Jiggs on Brinstar/Mute, Fox/Falco on RC), most matchups remain unchanged on the other stages (that is, out of the 351 matchups, 26 are always even, and my guess is that the vast majority of the leftover matchups see almost no change on the remaining stages).

One final remark: I need to clarify what I meant by "modern trends in the metagame." Obviously, certain discoveries lead to certain tactics being broken. I meant "modern trends" with regards to stylistic changes. For example, just because the game has gotten campy does not mean we should ban stages in order to discourage camping. When I wrote that part, I figured my second sentence about banning things according to how you "want" the game to be played would have made this clear, but I realize that my initial phrasing was poor.

Kal you know this argument has been made a billion times already in many many threads right...

you're not saying anything groundbreaking or inspirational so please give up.

Tell you what: if you don't like my posts, go ahead and add me to your ignore list. You have the reading skills of a 4th grader, so it would only benefit the both of us if you were unable to read what I have to say.

and its funny cause when pressed on actual gameplay on brinstar it instantly jumps to character matchup balance and how peach "needs" that stage or she's getting shafted which is not only irrelevant but was already refuted earlier since a horrible stage for her (RC) is simultaneously removed.

Thus cementing your complete ineptitude when it comes to reading comprehension.

Yeah, pretty upsetting when he mentioned peach needed that stage to actually keep up with the other good characters...

Cut me some slack. That's not what I said. What I said was:

What makes these unfair? Not having Brinstar on means Peach will have a harder time being able to beat characters like Marth, Fox and Falco. So then arguably Peach gets shafted by having Brinstar banned.

The word "arguably" is crucial here. The example was only given to emphasize that this notion of "counterpicks = unfair" is a little absurd.

I would attend a tournament Kal hosted if it were near me. Rulesets need experimentation. While not entirely out of the question, the MBR recommended ruleset is one of infinitely many possible ones and thus may still not be optimal.

A big issue I have here in Austin is that the venue I use to run tournaments is owned by a university club, and I graduated from said university, so I am not an officer. Thus, the input I have is usually overruled by the remaining officers who lean towards following whatever the MBR says.

I did manage to get one No Johns tournament with a decent turnout. However, some 6-8 people just resorted to agreeing to the MBR ruleset with their opponents. It was a frustrating realization for me that this trend is basically unstoppable. For the past decade or so, the entire Smash community has practiced on only the starter stages, and so whenever anyone loses on a counterpick in tournament, they don't accept the loss as a measurement of skill, instead opting to declare the stage janky. People are too set in their ways.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

One final remark: I need to clarify what I meant by "modern trends in the metagame." Obviously, certain discoveries lead to certain tactics being broken. I meant "modern trends" with regards to stylistic changes. For example, just because the game has gotten campy does not mean we should ban stages in order to discourage camping. When I wrote that part, I figured my second sentence about banning things according to how you "want" the game to be played would have made this clear, but I realize that my initial phrasing was poor.

But the game is more defensive/campy, and we are seeing that those stages are unfair when played in that fashion. Therefore they are removed because they are unfair in our metagame.

I'm glad you finally agree with me though.

 

[Kal]

What have I agreed upon, exactly?

 

[JPOBS]

I didn't say anyone was making me use this ruleset. I don't see why people keep making this argument, as though I'm worried the Cactuar will personally fly down here and make sure I don't turn Brinstar on.

Honestly, theres a very fine line between what you say and what you imply

It's fine to prefer that, but once you start forcing everyone else to play according to that preference, I have a problem.

It's fine if that's the metagame you guys want to play. It's not what I want to play, and it's not fair to expect the rest of us to do so.

These are just two examples from your most recent post, you've done it multilple time throughout the thread. I'm not really arguing anything here, just don't pretend to be all innocent when you have repeatedly made the implication that this ruleset is somehow forcing itself on the community.

 

[Kal]

I'll admit to having implied that the MBR ruleset "forces" us to play by these rules, and that such a statement is absolutely absurd. However, what I meant (and should have better expressed), is that it's wrong for TOs to force this sort of thing by creating this sort of ruleset. Since we are discussing rulesets, I didn't think to mention the distinction between what TOs put into practice and what the MBR recommends. You cannot deny that the TO forces his attendants to play by whatever ruleset he prescribes, and that was what I meant in the statements you've quoted.

However, it's important to keep in mind that there is a degree to which the MBR forces this ruleset, at least as far as legitimacy goes, by declaring itself an authority on Smash. Going against the MBR's recommended ruleset can be turnout-suicide, and I think that is largely because there is a stickied thread at the top of this forum labeled "MBR Official Ruleset."

 

[Bones0]

I don't see how you can say at all that going against the MBR rule set is turnout suicide when people have already explained how some of the biggest tournaments were the ones that changed the rule set from the MBR recommended one (Pound 4, and more recently, Genesis/Apex).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

However, what I meant (and should have better expressed), is that it's wrong for TOs to force this sort of thing by creating this sort of ruleset.

Wait, are you against this particular ruleset or against MBR rulesets in general?

 

[JPOBS]

I'll admit to having implied that the MBR ruleset "forces" us to play by these rules, and that such a statement is absolutely absurd. However, what I meant (and should have better expressed), is that it's wrong for TOs to force this sort of thing by creating this sort of ruleset. Since we are discussing rulesets, I didn't think to mention the distinction between what TOs put into practice and what the MBR recommends. You cannot deny that the TO forces his attendants to play by whatever ruleset he prescribes, and that was what I meant in the statements you've quoted.

Fair enough.

However, it's important to keep in mind that there is a degree to which the MBR forces this ruleset, at least as far as legitimacy goes, by declaring itself an authority on Smash. Going against the MBR's recommended ruleset can be turnout-suicide, and I think that is largely because there is a stickied thread at the top of this forum labeled "MBR Official Ruleset."

I tend to think of the operations of the "official recommended ruleset" as coming as a result of successful tournament hosting strategies, as opposed to the other way around.

To elaborate, as other people have stated, the recommended rulesets in history of smash have been mostly post hoc creations. Like, the biggest tournies in history have always done their own thing, regardless of the MBR, and the success of those tournies (notably pound 4) influenced the creation of "recommended rulesets."

To me, the MBR rulesets strike me as a guildline for newer TOs, because they are essentially saying "this is what previous tournament hosts have done and been successful, if you want to be successful as a TO, you can try this too." However, that being said, the premier TOs will always tailor it to their liking and innovate the ruleset, and the community follows and shows overwhelming support.

In a way, you've been right all along, these rulesets are mostly just a result of what the community wants. BUT, its more like "the community has shown to empirically support this style of ruleset, so we present a formal version" as opposed to "here is a ruleset that everyone should follow because it is the best/most fair/well supported"

The latter style of ruleset creation seems to be what all the fuss is about in this thread, and I can see why. But former I have absolutely no problem with.

I think this is my last post on the topic unless something new/interesting comes up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think Mute City is nearly as bad as some people in this thread are making it out to be, quite honestly.

 

[Strong Badam]

poor samus doe

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think it should be legal or anything, but when I hear people saying the cars & road are clearly worse than the lava... I am inclined to disagree. Mostly because I think Mute City's "safe zones" from the cars are generally way more consistent than Brinstar's, and you can block the cars if you're not in one of those "safe zones".

I feel the cars are similar to PS transformations in that, while they disrupt combat, they generally make people to back off from one another whereas the lava makes players compete for control over a single favourable position (the top platform).

I am surprised to hear people some people saying that Mute City's transformations are not on a timer. I've always been under the impression they were consistent. Can someone verify this for me? That actually legitimately surprised me.

.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The entire stage of MC is on a timer, the only thing that is random is the location of the cars i believe. The timing of the cars might change too. The transformations are constant, though.

I agree with you KK, cars/road aren't as bad as lava. But the small, no platformed, no edge platform is just horrible horrible...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think it's really that small. It feels about as long as Battlefield. And I've never really found it all that bad except when there's no road. And that's a very small part of the stage. The only characters that can chase you offstage super far are also conveniently slow so dancing around them is pretty doable.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hmm the lack of an edge plays a big part in things, though. Pretty much any knock off results in massive damage, either by the road or by the opponent. When the road disappears generally whoever gets the next hit will get a stock since the opponent has no choice but land on the stage.

 

[Wake]

Well sheesh I think the lack of edges is fun

 

[Luma]

having no legde can be good for chars like sheik actually, instead of recovering on the stage and get killed by lets say fox upsmash you can just upb on the road and recover without upb

just my 2 cents on the stage, always loved to cp it against peachs =D

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well sheesh I think the lack of edges is fun

You do know you're a Peach main, right?

Spoiler

I think the lack of edges is good too, cause we suck on the ledge.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

having no legde can be good for chars like sheik actually, instead of recovering on the stage and get killed by lets say fox upsmash you can just upb on the road and recover without upb

Whats stopping the fox from following you after you hit the road? Even if you manage to DI away and stall for when the stage changes, you still have to air dodge or upb onto the stage. I guess if you were straight up you could fall with an aerial but that isn't too much better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

hmm the lack of an edge plays a big part in things, though. Pretty much any knock off results in massive damage, either by the road or by the opponent. When the road disappears generally whoever gets the next hit will get a stock since the opponent has no choice but land on the stage.

The road doesn't build damage that quickly. Most characters can't hit you when you stall above it, and it's techable (in addition to doing 10% instead of 14%), which further allows you to prevent damage build-up. 30% is a lot, but Brinstar can do 50%+ easily and the stage is more conducive for the opponent being able to follow you. When I played the level, in ancient times, I very rarely recovered onstage. I usually opted to eat 20% or so from the road and called it a day. It's really not that bad.

The road disappearing always happens the same way, at the same time, in a predictable way. It is my belief you can accommodate it when playing, and it affects both players. It might be broken, though, this is probably the most broken part of the level. I don't think it's beyond horrible, though, because you can recover underneath the stage and jump through the platform. This makes a lot of stage-specific DJ > attack recoveries by characters like Sheik, Marth, etc. very viable recovery mixups. "Next hit = stock" is not accurate unless the opponent's above a certain percent threshold, which is normal anyway. Whether or not the lower-than-usual percent threshold is broken is worth investigating, but in my experience it isn't.

 

[Kal]

These flying bats are sort of really annoying.

 

[Bones0]

You can adblock them. hehe

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The worst part about the road disappearing is that there is no way to recover without landing on the stage. You can jump through the platform and attack, but even this is exploitable without a safe way to land on the stage without attacking (comparable to safely grabbing the edge). Even attacking them and hitting doesn't do you much good unless they have to recover too, since you will still have to upb after.

In any case, being off the stage when the road is gone is definitely much worse than being edge guarded on any stage with edges.

 

[Dark Hart]

Guys, guys, guys

Japes is legal!

Can't we all just be happy?

 

[JPOBS]

im surprised by the complete lack of japes discussion in this thread. Its like pretty much everyone is fine with it. shocking.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its a pretty cool stage, bro

 

[Dekar289]

get rid of the doubles counterpicks
/thread

 

[Pi]

Needs more stages and more bans

if i want to fight a marth on kj64 in tourney, but can't because it's banned because completely unrelated characters have advantages vs. other completely unrelated characters is silly

same w/ fighting on brinstar, i've been trying to work out a system...kind of, but i'd really like to see more diversity amongst the stages

we don't need to kill off whole stages because certain matchups are unfair on them, we just need more options when it comes to determining what stages we play on in specific matchups

i'm thinking like 1 neutral stage ban, and 1 CP ban
or something vastly more in depth but simple at the same time -.-

i really think we're moving in the wrong direction here..

i had a bunch written up about stuff but none of it came together right

but some of the stronger points were that overcentralizing the metagame may apply in theory, but in practice not every fox was picking rainbow cruise
and not every jiggs was picking brinstar
etc. etc.
not to mention not everybody was playing jiggs or fox and picking those stages for guarantee'd wins
or having to pick direct counter characters to combat a jiggs or fox picking those stages Zzz

as well as the goal of the mbr and the rulesets they encourage needing to focus more on variety and diversity as much as possible, while still retaining balance
i feel like one aspect of the game is being grossly weighed over the other

i'd really like to have a thread/discussion on ways we can increase the overall # of legal stages while still retaining balance, a system with more bans, or advanced stage striking, something that would allow a matchup which isn't heavily shifted in ones favor to occur on RBC, or kj64, or green greens or something