Stuff About Puff

[RestInPeace]

It also depends on their %. Generally if you're right on top of them after you've Bair'd them, you can rest. You will actually see it before it happens.

 

[Keblerelf]

So when fox/falco are uptilting your shield and you're facing away...

what do you do?

I try to jump away and b-air at the same time or roll away, but I was wondering if there is a better method.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you're at low percents, you should be able to spotdodge directly into a CC -> fsmash.

 

[GSUB]

^^^^^^^^^^
never thought of that... good to know... and if you're facing them I guess you could JC grab from CC also...



About the shield thing: I wavedash OoS to shorthop spaced backair, or to nair -> whatever.

 

[Smasher89]

Is there anyone who has "guarantied" damage and a win situation if puff is on the ledge, hanging there to avoid damage?(MK plankstyle...) Puffs sweetspot is longer then marts dtilt for example and the closest thing to maybe deal with it is peach stitches and maybe shieks needles (but played perfecly I doubt they work)...

 

[dudutsai]

Marth's fsmash/dtilt, Sheik's needles, Peach's turnips, Fox and Falco can both shine.

 

[Smasher89]

If they go for shine they should only get baired/gimped :/

 

[GSUB]

yeah, when I'm edgestalling and they come near, I pound or bair/nair/fair the **** out of them.

 

[dudutsai]

Shine works on me at least. I think you should try it before saying it doesn't work, because the difference between discussing theory on forums and actually playing can be pretty huge.

 

[Smasher89]

well, me and Armada was testing a strategy that reminds of how plank used to play brawl, get % lead and hang on the ledge for a mayor advantage/easy win, which seems to be close to completly destroy Falcos chances of winning when on a % disadvantage (for my point just to see if all complains about puff being broken might have some truth in it lol),

 

[dudutsai]

It's hard, almost impossible for Falco, I thought you were talking about Fox. Fox can shine pretty easily.

 

[Smasher89]

well him too, and anyone who has advantage when edgeguarding, from our perspective right now it just seems Puff allways get an advantage on hanging on the ledge since she gets sooo hard to hit if the puff knows which attacks to avoid. Bair outspaces shine so it should only need some practice to outprioritize it :/
The only thing I can think of that might surely hit is like link/YLs bumerangs but those chars have a hard matchup against puff anyway :/

EDIT: whats the difference that makes it easier to hit with fox shine compared to falcos?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox's shine is bigger. He's also really fast. Faster jump from the ground and stuff too.

 

[dudutsai]

Puff does have advantage, but it's not enough to make it unapproachable.
Fox can move faster in and out. Both Fox and Falco can just wait until Jigglypuff runs out of jumps and uses her empty jump to go for the ledge, but Falco isn't fast enough to run in and punish with his shine (assuming Fox/Falco need to stay back to avoid getting bair/fair'd)

 

[idea]

can falco hit edgecamping puff with low lasers? (or fox?)

 

[dudutsai]

Only if the jigglypuff messes up

 

[RestInPeace]

So when fox/falco are uptilting your shield and you're facing away...

what do you do?

I try to jump away and b-air at the same time or roll away, but I was wondering if there is a better method.

Time a WD OoS and FSmash is better than a CC FSmash imo. Probably not as consistent, but more efficient.

Or you could just jump outwards and hit them with a pound. This will pop them up because of their DI, where you can do anything to them (low % = rest; high % = bair/fair -> edgeguard, etc.), or give you a nice tap reset if they somehow SDI'd it in an odd direction and didn't tech.

 

[idea]

well...bair would be the obvious choice. and there's a reason for that. it's easy and is the most likely to work. fox and falco are really not very vulnerable when they're uptilting your shield, so 'punishing' them for it doesn't make much sense.

for instance, i can't see jumping/WDing OOS + pound working, because pound has a really slow startup and in the time it takes to do that they'll have used uptilt again...so chances are it'll either hit you first or trade <_<

i guess fsmash could work. but that might trade too. and trading might kill you so it's probably not worth the risk. also that's kind of hard to do.

so yeah, bair. simplicity

 

[GSUB]

of course you could be gay and edgestall with puff when in percent lead, like metaknight in brawl.

but the thing is, no one in the melee community does that... that's gay. only brawl kids do that.
(it should be enough to tell you that it's not a big deal because you and armada had to "do research on it." Whereas with metaknight it's commonly used and known about)

 

[dudutsai]

Blah blah blah words words

I don't see any problems with winning. Are you trying to convince people NOT to do all they can to win in tournaments? O_O

And let's not make fun of Brawl for having a different metagame.

 

[GSUB]

I once recall The King saying something about how he was playing against Cactuar (or maybe someone else... might have been Forward.), and King was stalling the ledge, and the opponent said something like, "You know that's all you have to do to win for the rest of the match, right?"

And King said, yeah you're right. And got off the ledge, and fought him like a man. And he still won.


I think it's dumb because if ledgestalling is the reason you're winning, you're not getting any better and you know it. The only person you're cheating is yourself, because you know if you were to fight them head on, you would lose (you're the reason people want puff banned).

 

[Smasher89]

Well it´s play to win and might reduce the metagame to get the % lead or lose against puff, that it is used in brawl but for some stupid reason not used in melee convinces me to at least try it in tournaments

(the games in my oppinion is very similar even though brawl has more reading and melee more techskillz, which isnt too abused), and if the results is successfull it might be THE strategy to get a ban on a character so many players hate, since the stages is reduced to what it is in many countries it shouldn´t be too hard to give it a good try^^
Air planking with bair might in worst case be the second option here

AND YES I WANT TO WIN WITH THE GAMES CHEAPEST TACTIC, get some money and get a character to even get banned lol, it would be hilarious if it would actually happen and noone has abused it for more then 5 years when it´s a kinda obvious strategy...

 

[The Irish Mafia]

wasn't it M2K? I read that in his post to get ledgestalling banned.

 

[Zephynazo]

Is Mang0 ever in this thread anymore?

 

[dudutsai]

1. People who want Jigglypuff banned are stupid.
2. It doesn't matter if you're getting better or not. People play to win. A lot of people can have fun while camping, and more people than you think can have fun playing someone who is camping.

As long as we're talking about things that are too gay to use in tournament, let's also ban Foxes and Falcos who camp, Marths that stay near the edge, and Sheiks and ICs that chaingrab, right?

That's all I'm gonna say about that though. Personally, I think it's really dumb not to be playing at your best all the time in tournament, and I won't argue with you anymore. Feel free to get the last word.

 

[Charlesz]

Is Mang0 ever in this thread anymore?

mango hasnt been on smashboards for a while.

 

[GSUB]

Ledgstalling is gay and is for ***g0ts.

 

[wiitubeaccount]

I once recall The King saying something about how he was playing against Cactuar (or maybe someone else... might have been Forward.), and King was stalling the ledge, and the opponent said something like, "You know that's all you have to do to win for the rest of the match, right?"

And King said, yeah you're right. And got off the ledge, and fought him like a man. And he still won.


I think it's dumb because if ledgestalling is the reason you're winning, you're not getting any better and you know it. The only person you're cheating is yourself, because you know if you were to fight them head on, you would lose (you're the reason people want puff banned).

completely agree with this post
also ledgestalling to win is gay, and is technically banned though it would be hard to get banned for it. this awesome game of melee is not about hitting the opponent a few time and then not fighting the rest of the time. It's completely alien to everything fun and competitive about this game. I respect melee players more than brawl players( in general) because they fight to win but don't avoid the fight at all.

 

[idea]

I once recall The King saying something about how he was playing against Cactuar (or maybe someone else... might have been Forward.), and King was stalling the ledge, and the opponent said something like, "You know that's all you have to do to win for the rest of the match, right?"

And King said, yeah you're right. And got off the ledge, and fought him like a man. And he still won.


I think it's dumb because if ledgestalling is the reason you're winning, you're not getting any better and you know it. The only person you're cheating is yourself, because you know if you were to fight them head on, you would lose (you're the reason people want puff banned).

agreed, more or less, but

2. It doesn't matter if you're getting better or not. People play to win. A lot of people can have fun while camping, and more people than you think can have fun playing someone who is camping.

As long as we're talking about things that are too gay to use in tournament, let's also ban Foxes and Falcos who camp, Marths that stay near the edge, and Sheiks and ICs that chaingrab, right?

That's all I'm gonna say about that though. Personally, I think it's really dumb not to be playing at your best all the time in tournament, and I won't argue with you anymore. Feel free to get the last word.

this is true too. that's why it's still a debate, because people have really different attitudes toward the game. just like in sports...some people will pretend to be injured to give the other team a penalty, others will say "i'm too honourable to do that" and don't.

one thing we never take into account is how annoying that must be for the other person (we in general, not we jigglypuff mains). that must be absolutely no fun at all for them =/

i mean, it's something to think of in moderation...the objective of the game isn't to optimize the other person's fun...but isn't it worth it to at least take that into account? how is it a game anymore if one person isn't really allowed to play?

and then there's the issue of skill. there's no rule that you have to always try to get better at the game, but at the same time, the merits of that goal seem pretty obvious. and i don't think anyone can argue that edgecamping is skillful. that's allowing the game to beat the other person, not doing it yourself. that is blue shells at the end of the last lap in mario kart. or an enemy getting a critical with a 1% chance and killing you in fire emblem. except what if that happened EVERY TIME. i would probably just stop playing.

that said. i imagine there must be SOME strategy that defeats jigglypuff's edgecamping, but since no one does that we haven't figured it out yet. one way is to not let her get the percentage lead in the first place...in essence, camp her pre-emptively. but then the game still kind of devolves.

so i suppose i still basically think "edgecamping is bad because it's irritating and not skillful"...but i hope i haven't come off as sounding that simplistic. there's more to it than that.

 

[Dynamism?]

brawl has more reading

HAHAHAH I hope that was a typo by you

Is Mang0 ever in this thread anymore?

I bet he ate himself, you cause he's a fruit...

so i suppose i still basically think "edgecamping is bad because it's irritating and not skillful"...but i hope i haven't come off as sounding that simplistic. there's more to it than that.

I hear it more like...

Zhu once beat Fly Am by shooting a few lasers and platform camping on Kongo Jungle for 8 minutes, just to see if he could do it, and it was easy. But he's good enough that he can beat him without camping, in a really fun way that makes both of them better and enjoy the game. Also, this game has lot of comaraderie within the community, so nobody would want to play when it's not fun anyway. Edge camping (or tactics similar) would be easier in other games as well, so doing it in melee wouldn't be an intelligent decision to begin with. And someone doing that probably wouldn't be having much fun either, therefore would go play another game.

Aside from this talk...

EVERYONE **** FACES LIKE MANGO USING NAIRS AND JABS

It's really fun, takes high quality smarts and if you get good at it, it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

EVERYONE **** FACES LIKE HBOX USING BAIRS AND REST

It's quite common and as safe as edge camping but funner and when you're good it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

 

[AnDaLe]

^^^ random spaz?

 

[dudutsai]

Wow I hate you guys (except for Idea). Unsubscribing from this thread. If I see any of you in tournament I'm gonna camp extra hard.

 

[GSUB]

Remember that time MaNg0 had to camp the ledge for a whole 8 minutes to win the match so that he could proceed to-

oh wait, no actually.

 

[RestInPeace]

I thought stalling in general gets you disqualified, not just "ledgestalling" (of course not all tournaments implement this rule). The principle behind the rule of no stalling is so that this debate is regulated out of the tournament, isn't it?

 

[idea]

officially, yes, there is no stalling, but they're very specific about that. you can't infinite peach bomber on the side of a wall, you can't infinite rising pound way at the top...but refreshing ledge invincibility is a really important part of the game, so it's hard to regulate something like that. you'd only be able to identify it as camping after the fact, which doesn't help in the middle of a set.

unless there were a ledge grab # rule. we could do that, it seems to be working for the brawl community (i mean, since they're still using it =P). it would be nice if we didn't have to, though.

and dudutsai...

As long as we're talking about things that are too gay to use in tournament, let's also ban Foxes and Falcos who camp, Marths that stay near the edge, and Sheiks and ICs that chaingrab, right?

i think it's worthwhile to distinguish between camping, and edgecamping. one is a lot, y'know, "gayer". no one is saying 'i am against all forms of camping'.

there's also the point that, if marth for instance waits near the edge, you don't have to go there. you can shoot projectiles at him, or something, AND if you happen to hit him while he's waiting there, he will be offstage and at a disadvantage. it's more varied that way. if jiggs waits ON the edge, you can't edgeguard her, you can't shoot any projectiles at her, and you basically have to wait until she feels like stopping or run in and go for something risky.

it's not impossible to get by, but again, that can't possibly be fun for the other person. whereas countering OTHER forms of camping can still be enjoyable. i mean, some form of defensive play is pretty much necessary with this game, but jigglypuff on the edge is just such an extreme version of that.

also don't leave =/

 

[TheManaLord]

GUYS. this is SAIJUMPING

its totally legit

DEAL WITH IT

it's MORE fun to camp and countercamp with more camping

and no, i'm actually not being sarcastic. i love playing sai. hes a revolutionary.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

pills beat saijumping

 

[AnDaLe]

i sware, i can't smashDI the Uair from the Uthrow. I even time it well.. I see the puff ball move a whole ton... but i still get hit... Some help? Sometimes i even DI the throw... still no good =\


EDIT: and on regards to camping, I say its legit unless T.O.'s start banning it.

 

[idea]

i dunno, you DI one way, smash DI the first hit of upair the other way. try to DI behind them just cause it's kind of harder for them that way.

if i had to guess...smash DI a bit later. i used to always try to get it too early.

 

[Dynamism?]

DIing the throw is almost just as important. As it makes Fox RUN to get the Uair, meaning he'll have momentum sideways, allowing you to DI opposite to his momentum. DI the throw, THEN worry about DIing the Uair.

To SDI it, just try mashing semicircles at different times, eventually you'll figure it out. For the most part, the throw is essential. :\

Regarding the 'camp' thing.
Most people actually have a bit of pride and want to prove they're the better player. And in turn get better themselves to do so. One will not resort to camping to prove they're better, that would have the opposite effect. So how about...who cares? Just hit them and don't get hit. GG welcome to MEEEEELLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!