Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Tesh]

That wasn't my point. My point is that if something is never okay, it shouldn't be allowed as an option regardless.

In Fox vs Snake, there are stages that Snake never wants to play and Fox never wants to play, but stages like Hyrule are stages that are never desires in any matchup by both players.

If there was any other stage concept that tested only one character attribute to such an extreme, I would feel the same way.

Lets say we have a stage called "the dumb dumb color zone" and victory there is always determined by how blue your character is. No one wants to play anyone on this stage because it takes one character attribute and turns the entire match into that one concept.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Sunshade, That only works with Pokemon trainer though since the Pokemon have stamina and they are forced to switch once their stock is taken. If you remove Zelda, you would still have to remove Shiek using another ban (same with Samus and ZSS).

 

[sunshade]

That wasn't my point. My point is that if something is never okay, it shouldn't be allowed as an option regardless.

In Fox vs Snake, there are stages that Snake never wants to play and Fox never wants to play, but stages like Hyrule are stages that are never desires in any matchup by both players.

If there was any other stage concept that tested only one character attribute to such an extreme, I would feel the same way.

Lets say we have a stage called "the dumb dumb color zone" and victory there is always determined by how blue your character is. No one wants to play anyone on this stage because it takes one character attribute and turns the entire match into that one concept.

My entire point was that every stage is acceptable and to pick and choose which stages we want to influence the game's balance is not our place as players. You may not value the strategic value of circle camping but it is not your or my place as a player to systematically remove elements of play which encourage elements we don't like.

I am taking an ultra originalist stance and I am choosing to avoid all changes to the original balance of the game at all costs as I don't consider it my place to alter it. If you are going to take constructionist actions to alter the games balance and to obtain your own personal concept of what fair play truly is you have now justified the modification of everything and anything. Stages need no justification for being banned, LGL are entirely justified, banning chaingrabs is legit, and anti tripping codes are also acceptable.

@Sunshade, That only works with Pokemon trainer though since the Pokemon have stamina and they are forced to switch once their stock is taken. If you remove Zelda, you would still have to remove Shiek using another ban (same with Samus and ZSS).

It works with Zelda/Shiek as well as ZS/Samus provided you view the different movesets/sprites as a single character in the same way you do pokemon trainer. They have the same character select slot (just like mushroomy kingdom only having 1 stage slot) and they each have an ability to toggle how you start the match (just mushroomy kingdom).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How is what you are doing to Mushroomy Kingdom any different then just hitting the random button on the stage screen?

 

[sunshade]

I don't understand what you mean, could please clarify? Sorry for my lack of understand.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't understand what you mean, could please clarify? Sorry for my lack of understand.

If we have a way to choose the stage we get to play on in Mushroomy Kingdom, why do we have to leave it to chance? Also, if we are leaving that to chance, why not just hit the random button on the stage list and leave everything to chance?

 

[sunshade]

If we have a way to choose the stage we get to play on in Mushroomy Kingdom, why do we have to leave it to chance? Also, if we are leaving that to chance, why not just hit the random button on the stage list and leave everything to chance?

Think of it as the same thing as choosing to spawn as zero suit Samus or Samus, except both players are capable of inputting which version of Samus spawns.

We leave it potentially* to chance because Mushroomy Kingdom's layout being determined by a random element is no different than pictochat choosing to summon transformations X, Y, Z instead of A, B, C. We don't treat the first transformation of pictochat as a different stage than some other first transformation much the same as we should not treat the stage spawned by mushroomy as a different stage due to it only being a single stage.

As for why we should not simply use random is because our intent is to emulate the match-up in its truest form. We could do this by playing 1 match on every single stage or by using the median of bias. We obviously don't have time to make use of the first method so the median of bias is our next best option. Due to the random selection of stages very frequently causing the match-up not to be displayed in its most natural state we elect to use other options.

*(I am not actually sure if it is left to chance should players input conflicting signals to the game in regards to which version to spawn. Someone should probably find out. I would but my nintendo is in my other home)

 

[Life]

Sooooooo... grats Johnumbers on BBR status?

 

[Ghostbone]

I have not tested it yet but I have a hunch that if players input conflicting inputs for the stage then it will be random.

Complaining about that is like complaining that with regular stage selection both players can move the cursor so we shouldn't even bother picking stages.

One player decides which stage it is (the one CPing it, or with stage striking, each requires a separate strike)

Imagine if you choose to do character striking with someone for whatever reason. You wouldn't strike each individual pokemon trainer monster you would simply strike pokemon trainer. Same concept applies.

Except you do have to consider each pokemon/transformation.
You know double blind? You must specify if you're going Sheik or Zelda, Samus or ZSS, Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard.

1-1 and 1-2 are separate stages, and though they take up the same spot in the stage selection screen, they're still separate stages.

 

[Raziek]

I really don't see where you're coming from on ZSS and Samus, Zelda/Sheik etc not being separate characters, Sunshade. They clearly are, even just by simple common sense.

 

[T-block]

Except you do have to consider each pokemon/transformation.
You know double blind? You must specify if you're going Sheik or Zelda, Samus or ZSS, Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard.

I actually strongly disagree.

ESPECIALLY in the case of Samus/ZSS.

The character is Zelda/Sheik, Samus, and Pokemon Trainer. Pokemon Trainer starting as Squirtle is not a different character from Pokemon Trainer starting as Ivysaur. In double blind, each player is required to select their character without knowledge of the opponent's character. My character selection is Pokemon Trainer. My starter selection is an independent choice, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be allowed to occur with knowledge of my opponent's character.

You can make the case that all selections on the character select screen should be made without knowledge of the opponent's selections, but that's not the way double blind is defined at the moment. And even so, there's still no argument to preventing the Samus player from switching to Zero Suit without telling his opponent.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's interesting
I should pick up Samus and start ****** with her just to make people get salty and CP DDD. Then I switch to ZSS lolol

 

[Supreme Dirt]

But I'd go Dedede either way.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's the point...
I win game 1 with Samus against your...I dunno Wario or something
Game 2 I stick with Samus, you CP DDD cause lolinfinite (he has an infinite on Samus..right?)
So during game 2 I switch from Samus to ZSS, and my MU changes from -3 to +2.

In other words, I lure you into making the MU easier for me

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And then you lose game 3 to Falco.

 

[T-block]

Except you still need to win a game with Samus, and let's face it - that never happens

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah I would never consider picking her up, I just felt like brewing up some hilariously bad theorycraft

 

[Ghostbone]

I actually strongly disagree.

ESPECIALLY in the case of Samus/ZSS.

The character is Zelda/Sheik, Samus, and Pokemon Trainer. Pokemon Trainer starting as Squirtle is not a different character from Pokemon Trainer starting as Ivysaur. In double blind, each player is required to select their character without knowledge of the opponent's character. My character selection is Pokemon Trainer. My starter selection is an independent choice, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be allowed to occur with knowledge of my opponent's character.

You can make the case that all selections on the character select screen should be made without knowledge of the opponent's selections, but that's not the way double blind is defined at the moment. And even so, there's still no argument to preventing the Samus player from switching to Zero Suit without telling his opponent.

Except for the fact the rules make you specify if you're going ZSS or Samus.

You can pick just "Pokemon Trainer", but that's a separate pick from "Squirtle", "Ivysaur", or "Charizard".
With the former you're leaving the starting pokemon to chance, with the latter you're not.
There's no reason in double blind that you should be allowed to pick after your opponent, it's nonsensical, that's why double blind makes you pick everything down to your costume (makes a negligible difference but meh), PT isn't some exception, you decide in double blind which pokemon you want to start with (or leave it up to chance) without knowledge of the opponent's character.

And they're all separate characters, ZSS is a different character than Samus, Sheik is a different character than Zelda, and all the pokemon are different characters.
You can switch between them in a match (and with PT you're forced to use multiple characters), but they're still completely different from one another.
They all have their own movesets, their own announcer calls, their own stock pictures, their own victory animations, their own sounds, their own character files, and excluding PT their own crowd chants.
They're different characters with the ability to swap between themselves, that's it.

 

[sunshade]

And they're all separate characters, ZSS is a different character than Samus, Sheik is a different character than Zelda, and all the pokemon are different characters.
You can switch between them in a match (and with PT you're forced to use multiple characters), but they're still completely different from one another.
They all have their own movesets, their own announcer calls, their own stock pictures, their own victory animations, their own sounds, their own character files, and excluding PT their own crowd chants.
They're different characters with the ability to swap between themselves, that's it.

They are all single characters who posses the ability to alternate between different forms. You are being distracted by the physical differences and choosing to ignore that a character is only a large collection of tools needed to obtain victory.

Zelda and sheik are one character in the same way that amantarasu in MvC3 is one character despite 3 different move sets, the same as how the morphling in dota despite having multiple forms is a single hero, and the same way characters who shift stances are only one character.

By contrast in super turbo the old and new versions of each character are infact different characters (who just happen to share nearly identical moves, sprites, win animations, announcer voices, and various other things). These characters however cannot alternate between each other within the same match and are as a result separate sets of tools to obtain victory and thus separate characters. (Tldr O. Sagat and Sagat are different characters but zelda and sheik are forms of one character).

Zero suit samus and samus are a bit closer to separate characters due to the artificial removal of a players way to transform between the two at will, but they are still the same core tool set despite the one way transformation.

 

[infiniteV115]

You guys are clearly just using different definitions of the word character. Perhaps justifying why one should use your definition of 'character' would make this argument less silly.

 

[sunshade]

You guys are clearly just using different definitions of the word character. Perhaps justifying why your definition of 'character' would make this argument less silly.

I actually don't even remember why we started to go into such heavy detail with the example when we should be focusing on the actual discussion. Namely is Mushroomy kingdom one stage or two and how that influences full list striking. I will simply say I agree to do disagree on the character debate.

I however stand by my statements that whichever version of mushroomy kingdom spawns is no different than which transformations pictochat spawns, or the hazards that norfair creates. It is simply a random element of the stage on a larger scale, and our ability to influence it is no different than our ability to influence other random elements within stages.

 

[T-block]

Except for the fact the rules make you specify if you're going ZSS or Samus.

You can pick just "Pokemon Trainer", but that's a separate pick from "Squirtle", "Ivysaur", or "Charizard".
With the former you're leaving the starting pokemon to chance, with the latter you're not.
There's no reason in double blind that you should be allowed to pick after your opponent, it's nonsensical, that's why double blind makes you pick everything down to your costume (makes a negligible difference but meh), PT isn't some exception, you decide in double blind which pokemon you want to start with (or leave it up to chance) without knowledge of the opponent's character.

And they're all separate characters, ZSS is a different character than Samus, Sheik is a different character than Zelda, and all the pokemon are different characters.
You can switch between them in a match (and with PT you're forced to use multiple characters), but they're still completely different from one another.
They all have their own movesets, their own announcer calls, their own stock pictures, their own victory animations, their own sounds, their own character files, and excluding PT their own crowd chants.
They're different characters with the ability to swap between themselves, that's it.

As infinite said, it's mostly definition.

Squirtle has never been considered its own character though. He doesn't have his own entry on the tier list, or his own spread on the matchup chart. In fact, if we make "having matchups" a criterion for being a character (which is perfectly reasonably in my mind), Squirtle cannot be considered a character. The Squirtle-Marth matchup does not exist in reality. The Squirtle-Samus matchup does not exist in reality. It's the Pokemon Trainer-Marth matchup, and we talk about a Squirtle-Marth matchup because it is a useful tool for discussion, but it is still ultimately a mere fabrication.

Having a unique announcer call seems like a much weaker criterion than actually being able to be played imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I actually don't even remember why we started to go into such heavy detail with the example when we should be focusing on the actual discussion. Namely is Mushroomy kingdom one stage or two and how that influences full list striking. I will simply say I agree to do disagree on the character debate.

I however stand by my statements that whichever version of mushroomy kingdom spawns is no different than which transformations pictochat spawns, or the hazards that norfair creates. It is simply a random element of the stage on a larger scale, and our ability to influence it is no different than our ability to influence other random elements within stages.

The distinction is that you can't just choose to play on the whale in Pictochat, you can choose to play on just 1-1 in Mushroomy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If only most people knew how to pick it.

 

[Ghostbone]

I however stand by my statements that whichever version of mushroomy kingdom spawns is no different than which transformations pictochat spawns, or the hazards that norfair creates. It is simply a random element of the stage on a larger scale, and our ability to influence it is no different than our ability to influence other random elements within stages.

But it's entirely different, we can decide which version of mushroomy kingdom to play on, why should it be left to chance when they're clearly different stages?

/And I won't continue the argument about characters but I still disagree with you guys>.>

 

[Supreme Dirt]

V, the hilarious thing is I'm actually working on a Wario.

 

[infiniteV115]

I know. I saw you posting on the Wario boards about tires and stuff
I follow you everywhere, man.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Awesome.

I have a pikmin.

And his name is V.

 

[tekkie]

isnt there a thread somewhere with in-depth descriptions on why some stages are legal and some aren't? it isn't the bbr one

 

[WindMajor]

It's in the OP.

 

[tekkie]

omg there it is thanks :D

that should be stickied lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm making a better version right now :D

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Corneria should be legalized again. The only real reason it was banned was because of DDD's popularity and he's not even that great anymore.

 

[-LzR-]

My IQ just dropped so much it's negative now.

 

[Tesh]

So I got gimped by the lava on Brinstar yesterday...

 

[Life]

So I got gimped by the ledge on FD yesterday...

 

[Yikarur]

So I got gimped by the ledge on FD yesterday...

welcome to 2008

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So I got gimped by the sword on MK yesterday...

 

[Tesh]

It was actually pretty hilarious, I was using Pit's Up B and I dipped too low into the lava and i was at lke 20% so i didnt go anywhere and then the lava just dipped and I died. Was some bull**** really. Got it all on tape.

 

[Raziek]

I was using Pit's Up B and I dipped too low

Sounds like entirely your fault.