Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[Dark Sonic]

So guys, Veril is willing to compromise with us on the fair issue.

Fair WILL BE NERFED, but the question is, HOW will it be nerfed. What they want to weaken is Marth's FULL HOP DOUBLE FAIR as a camping strategy against certain characters.

Here is my proposal to them

The point is this.

When Marth had his fast fair, the physics were fine. But when you slowed down the fair, then the physics hampered him because he doesn't have enough airtime to get his moves out (since his bread and butter ariel is slower). So now the Marth mains want the physics changed to compensate and help get rid of this "Roy" feel. The slower fair forces Marth's game to be more about shffling since he just can't get them out as fast when he's in the air (hint, we dont' WANT Marth's game to be about shffling).

My suggested compromise is this.

1. Adjust the nerf itself so that part of the nerf is on the begining of fair and part is on the end (1 on the front and 3 or 4 on the end). This is to let fair at least flow into OTHER moves better, even if fair->fair isn't as good. Or you can give Fair IASA into his other moves besides fair (since only fair->fair was the problem right?)

AND

2. Make Marth a little bit floatier so he has more airtime to work with this new fair. SH double aerials were never a problem with Marth, so there's no reason that we can't have a fix that includes them. And more airtime would allow him to use fair in pretty much the same ways, just less effectively. His position after the fair is over would be the same, it would just take a little longer. Fair camping wouldn't work as well because of the longer punishment window, but everything else would be roughly the same (edgeguarding with fair would work the same, comboing with fair would be tighter, but should still work, ect, ect).

I guess I'll run this by the Marth boards and make sure we're all on the same page though, just to be sure.

What do you guys think? Feel free to make suggestions to this proposal or offer your own ideas. Cape just wants us to be united in our fix (a little hard with the different groups of Marth players, but it has to be done).

 

[Allied]

1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Lucario/Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)

Yeah I see what you mean. I only hope that Brawl+ can aspire to these heights.

Lol the only reason that happened because you had the top metaknight players from each region travel to one spot... not the TOp players of each region also if you didnt notice The top 5 is PURE NJ/NY (m2k is former NJ) domination because WE DA BEST then you have judge and havok which are respected MKs from their region and PS from md/va who is beast and LEE martin who used lucario and metaknight from tx and seibrik

I mean i can easily pull out other tournaments where MK wasn't even in the top 10 lol besides like M2k

Yeah, we aim a whole h*** of a lot higher than that.

That list made me puke in my mouth a little bit.

Your not going to be able to aim if everyone is giving up on brawl+ so far players for each tournament brawl+ had (national) choose the best character simple as that

you guys had problems with ness (********), Squirtle, and D3 from what i hear and you have tweaked that but what i'm saying is there is no way you guys no matter how much you tweak are ever going to get the equal balance you work for its impossible

Thats why i gave up on falco because from when i played 4.0 - 5.0 Falco has changed too much for me to go back too even though its minor now i have to completely relearn him and top players don't wanna do that especially for this game lol so they will play a solid game like regular brawl where yeah MK is winning but thats because everyone is too P*ssy to try to place higher which is why you see all the wifi kids saying ban MK even tho they dont go to tournaments

i realized long ago if i wanna be the best and try to place high i can't just cut it with kirby so i picked up another main(snake) which is fine that happens alot in every competitive fighter but it doesn't mean tweak all the other characters so kirby can win tournaments it won't happen that way

bleh sorry for the rant

btw inb4 "thats not what we do to get other character viable or whatever" i already know

 

[JCaesar]

If you look at Ankoku's Character Rankings (i.e. tournament data), you can see that MK has far and away the best tourney results. Snake can almost compete, but all the other characters may as well not even exist. Their results are insignificant.

Brawl+ tourney results have never been that skewed, not even close, even when we screwed up like with RC1 Ness.

Hmm maybe we should start an Ankoku-style rankings thread for 6.0...

Bottom line is, no, we'll never get it perfect, but we've done a pretty bang-up job making Brawl+ much better balanced than vBrawl, and it was worth the effort.

 

[VietGeek]

Hmm maybe we should start an Ankoku-style rankings thread for 6.0...

The only man I know for the job is too busy disfiguring Luigi...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Guys, how about replying to my post? This is kind of important for "Rarth" to turn back into Marth.

 

[Veril]

1. Do you remember what happened when we changed the startup on squirtle's fair? That horrible fiasco aside, shuffling the startup and cooldown preserves the purpose of the change, increasing the startup by 1 or 2 and reducing the IASA by a comparable amount would be acceptable. It would lower the total duration of the move, and the fair followups into everything but fair would improve. The total change in regards to the narrowing of the combo window of fair > fair will remain the same as it is currently (with the iasa at 39). It is certainly the most feasible compromise proposed as of yet. I will need to look into both possible permutations of this fix (startup at 5/6 iasa earlier by 1/2).

2. Adjusting any characters physics is an ordeal and not at all necessary from a balance standpoint. Despite this, I've assigned Viet to work on making Marth floatier. You should make sure your input on this matter reaches him.

Spoiler

bwahahaha

Both of these changes will, like all changes made at this point, require majority approval from the B+ broomers in the wbr. I cannot stress this enough.

 

[Paracelsus]

Lol the only reason that happened because you had the top metaknight players from each region travel to one spot... not the TOp players of each region also if you didnt notice The top 5 is PURE NJ/NY (m2k is former NJ) domination because WE DA BEST then you have judge and havok which are respected MKs from their region and PS from md/va who is beast and LEE martin who used lucario and metaknight from tx and seibrik

I mean i can easily pull out other tournaments where MK wasn't even in the top 10 lol besides like M2k



Your not going to be able to aim if everyone is giving up on brawl+ so far players for each tournament brawl+ had (national) choose the best character simple as that

you guys had problems with ness (********), Squirtle, and D3 from what i hear and you have tweaked that but what i'm saying is there is no way you guys no matter how much you tweak are ever going to get the equal balance you work for its impossible

Thats why i gave up on falco because from when i played 4.0 - 5.0 Falco has changed too much for me to go back too even though its minor now i have to completely relearn him and top players don't wanna do that especially for this game lol so they will play a solid game like regular brawl where yeah MK is winning but thats because everyone is too P*ssy to try to place higher which is why you see all the wifi kids saying ban MK even tho they dont go to tournaments

i realized long ago if i wanna be the best and try to place high i can't just cut it with kirby so i picked up another main(snake) which is fine that happens alot in every competitive fighter but it doesn't mean tweak all the other characters so kirby can win tournaments it won't happen that way

bleh sorry for the rant

btw inb4 "thats not what we do to get other character viable or whatever" i already know

I would love to know what you are talking about but that **** is just one long sentence.

 

[Revan Skywalker]

Well bringing double aerials back sounds quite promising. I think it's ok to nerf the fair, but I also think he needs his double fair or fair to uair in one short hop.
So i'd say this sounds a lot better than the things you said before (not changing) but I can't really say how good the changes are. It all depends on if Marth will feel like Marth again.
I really hope so^^

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

DS' fix seems like the best way to go about things. Marth mains (lol) have taken many nerfs in stride, only insisting that he still feel like Marth. Hopefully this returns him to the right physics for his new fair.


Aside from serious business, does anyone find it hilarious that Veril basically said "whine to Viet, not me" and ran away cackling into the night? >.>

 

[VietGeek]

 

[Shell]

@DarkSonic, others

My suggestions for the fair was to only have the old SHDF-capable IASA on hit, so that if you hit someone with the normal SHDF timing's first swing you can do all of your fancy second fair combos. However, if you whiff or are just walling with it, it will only allow for a single fair in a SH.

This preserves the FHDF nerf, eliminates any residue of occasional SHDF walling (which, if I understand correctly, isn't nearly as good as FHDF anyways for walling), and allows for SHDF combos.

If Fair>Fair combos are still dominating the rest of his combo game, possibly increase the KB on the Fair very slightly and/or lessen the dmg to make it a little less attractive option, but still flow when you need it to.

 

[Demacrez]

What?! No Wai!!! Tournament Pack 7 Scapegoats?!?!

 

[leafgreen386]

@DarkSonic, others

My suggestions for the fair was to only have the old SHDF-capable IASA on hit, so that if you hit someone with the normal SHDF timing's first swing you can do all of your fancy second fair combos. However, if you whiff or are just walling with it, it will only allow for a single fair in a SH.

This preserves the FHDF nerf, eliminates any residue of occasional SHDF walling (which, if I understand correctly, isn't nearly as good as FHDF anyways for walling), and allows for SHDF combos.

If Fair>Fair combos are still dominating the rest of his combo game, possibly increase the KB on the Fair very slightly and/or lessen the dmg to make it a little less attractive option, but still flow when you need it to.

I agree with this, but it's not an easy thing to implement... at least I don't think it is. I tried earlier to make an on-hit IASA, but PSA didn't seem to want to work with me. I'll have to try some other things tonight to get it to work. Although I'd like to see jump and upB always be IASAble, with everything else only working on hit.

 

[Shell]

I imagined it would be something like

Hitbox 01 information
on hit function
set bit [x] = 1
...
...
Asynchronous timer=26 (??)
if bit [x] =1
allow interrupt
end if

else
Asynchronous timer=32 (???)
allow interrupt
...
...
set bit [x] = 0


That's not exactly right, but I think the basic idea is there. I wouldn't want it to cancel, per se, because that would mean SHDF combos wouldn't require learning the timing. Rather, just have it use an IASA which allows SHDF.

I'm relatively confident that with a little refinement from someone actually good with coding this would work. If the Brawl+ BRoomers like this I'm sure we could find someone to take a stab at it.

 

[leafgreen386]

I didn't mean to cancel on hit, just that it would allow the interrupt at frame 34 (which means setting the timer for frame 33). I tried to set a finite loop for 4 times with a syncronous timer at the end of the loop so that it would check each frame and set a bit for if a hitbox hit, but it wasn't detecting it. Then when I tried using an infinite loop (and changing the syncronous timer of 4 frames to an asyncronous one at frame 7), it wouldn't allow the rest of the commands to continue like I thought it would.

Although... you just gave me an idea. Time to test if it works...

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

Sorry to break the metagame discussion, but I was interested in something with Marth that I figured I should ask here. I don't play him, so I may not know anything of what I speak, but I heard his side-B is an asset, as well as a good combo that leads into a kill. I just wanted to know, what is:

A. The best combination to use (or, since it may be situational, the most common combination to use) of the 18 possible?
B. The percentage that it kills at from a tipper?
C. The direction it knocks you?

I figured I'd ask the people who know more about Marth+. Once again, sorry to break discussion.

 

[Veril]

Sorry to break the metagame discussion

Don't be sorry <3 + Dancing blade is a crazy crazy move that basically deserves its own guide.

 

[leafgreen386]

Alright guys. I tried. I really really tried. But I just can't figure out what's keeping this from working. IASA with only jump or specials? Easy. Also having IASA with everything but only on hit? Confusing as hell to figure out how to make work properly. Now, don't get me wrong. I didn't give up before getting anything. This pac will work... sometimes. When you first start a game, the on-hit IASA should work fine, as long as you don't tip the fair. If you do tip it, the SOCs used for triggering 0B may stop spawning afterward, and 0B will probably not trigger for that particular hit, either. You'll be able to tell that the SOCs are spawning due to a different hit type on them, making it particularly obvious when the pac starts acting stupid. If anyone wants to check it out and try to see what's wrong, feel free to. This is what I've got right now:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HZ38DAP5

I think in order to make it work you'll end up needing to set some basic or float value equal to something at the start of the subaction. What that might be... I have no idea. I might take a look at fighter.pac later and see if there's anything in there that might be of help. For now, I'm gonna go work on some Project M stuff, and maybe one of you will be a genius and figure this out while I do that.

As an aside, it's extremely sexy when it works, although if it comes down to it, I wouldn't mind just having the jump/special IASA if that's all we're able to get working.

 

[Veril]

Don't interpret any of that ^^ as: this is actually a fix that would be acceptable. It won't bring back SHDF, iasa on hit is a mechanic largely alien to smash, and it would essentially erase this as a change in regards to fair followups.



Think hard about how Marth should feel in terms of his physics, and whether a slower startup on fair is acceptable for lowering its IASA by a comparable amount. A combination of a slightly floatier Marth and a minor decrease to the iasa would bring back SHDF and the only fair followup that would still be as impacted as in the current build would be fair>fair. For this to be a really noticable change you'd need at few more frames for a SH in addition to a 6 frame-startup fair with iasa on 37/36.

6 frame startup is fairly standard for a "fast" aerial. DDD's bair and MK's nerfed nair are good examples of great 6 frame startup moves. On the other hand... "looks at the old squirtle fair change". That said, think about it...

 

[ItachiFire2]

Well why not instead of nerfing characters like falco/marth/ddd/MK and buff other characters?

 

[leafgreen386]

Don't interpret any of that ^^ as: this is actually a fix that would be acceptable. It won't bring back SHDF, iasa on hit is a mechanic largely alien to smash, and it would essentially erase this as a change in regards to fair followups.

You confuse me. I don't really know what you're trying to say here, just that I know from other things you've said that you don't think it's a good change >_>

IASA on hit may be fairly alien to smash, but it's the least intrusive way to make the nerf. It actually feels fairly natural in gameplay (when it works). You're wrong about the SHDF... it would bring back SHDF, since you'd be able to IASA into another fair on hit. But you are right about it erasing this as a change in regards to fair followups... that's the point. The problem wasn't that fair had too good of followups; the problem was walling with FH fairs. Unless someone grossly misrepresented the problem to me, this entirely preserves the purposes of the nerf while also preserving the other legit purposes of the fair.

If you're not going to accept this (imo completely reasonable) change, then I'm glad I stopped working on it when I did. If this is acceptable, though, I think it would be the single most ideal fix out there, as soon as it's made to work properly.

 

[The Cape]

Well:

[23:27] <Lanstar> marth is still legit

Thats one. Who's next?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well:

[23:27] <Lanstar> marth is still legit

Thats one. Who's next?

And? We're just saying that the nerf in it's current form was unjustified under your very own critieria.
Or at least by Veril's statement in the "taking points from Pound 4" thread.

The approach I'll be taking is geared towards making the smallest changes possible to achieve a desired goal

5 frames to the endlag of a move is a LARGE change. A better fix has been proposed and is being ironed out. It doesn't matter how "legit" Marth is, what matters is that you nerfed him more than necessary and we want it fixed. Nobody likes to see their character nerfed, it's just that the Marth boards actually have the balls to say something about it. (That and I know all about your personal vendetta against Marth .)

You want to nerf full hop double fair? Nerf fullhop double fair. Don't nerf Fair in general, because believe it or not, it was actually used for more than just camping!

@Leaf, your fix is kind of a tough sale. Introducing an entirely new mechanic to smash just to fix one nerf. And it's a mechanic that would even be fairly awkward for players to use (learning different lag times for the same move, dealing with miscalculations such as the opponent dodging and having to make new plans on the spot to deal with the extra lag, ect, ect). Sure it's something they can learn...but why? If anything, we should just try some different physics with my fix (which you can feel free to tweak of course).

 

[Lanstar]

Well:

[23:27] <Lanstar> marth is still legit

Thats one. Who's next?

I didn't say marth was still as enjoyable to play or as interesting/fun as he was I just said he's a legitimate character, and he definitely is still good in the current version of brawl+, there's no getting around it. However, that's not what they're trying to get at :3

 

[Veril]

My criteria for nerfing now is only possible because the major changes have all already been made. The marth change was not something I initiated and I have no personal vendetta against Marth. That said the change serves the intended purpose of removing the FHDF wall. I make "new" changes from 6.0, not vBrawl or 5.0 or GSH...

Because fair is such a sensitive issue I'm evaluating several possible fixes for it. Leaf has proposed one of the best thought out fixes (iasa on hit). That doesn't mean it will be implemented. When I know for sure which fixes to decide between, than I'll post that here.

 

[Shell]

Because fair is such a sensitive issue I'm evaluating several possible fixes for it. SHeLL has proposed one of the best thought out fixes (iasa on hit). That doesn't mean it will be implemented. When I know for sure which fixes to decide between, than I'll post that here.

Fixed that for ya thar

I always liked the feel of Roy more... something tells me I would've liked this Rarth

 

[Veril]

Fixed that for ya thar

:embarrass

sorry Shell

 

[VietGeek]

ROW ROW FIGHT TEH POWAH​

 

[ChaosKnight]

sigh are scrubs now messing up my character >_>

 

[VietGeek]

ya ck im leading the charge

dont worry tho

well just brush up a bit and trim around the edges and its all good

 

[Dark Sonic]

TTGL is SOOO GOOOD

 

[Veril]

Marth fixes

The fair fix is going to alter fairs hitbox to terminate after frame 6, but revert the IASA to 34. Fair will be identical in terms of speed and comboability, but the lower hitbox that really maximized the walling potential of FHDF will be removed. Marth's physics will also be adjusted (this includes removing the pointless aerial stop mobility nerf).

That is the extent of the new changes to Marth that will be implemented. This has been proposed, voted on, and approved.

Moving the **** on!

Nothing useful has been said or done with this thread in quite some time. A while ago someone asked about dancing blade (a valid inquiry imo) and was completely drowned out by the collective b****ing. This thread is also full of spam, and not even clever or original spam, just the same stuff repeated. Fail less, please.

well just brush up a bit and trim around the edges and its all good

Hair metaphors... appropriate.

 

[VietGeek]

Veril such is the nature of this thread.

It is not fail but eloquent and exotic.

Much like baby bananas. Awkward but intriguing. Different yet familiar.

Such is the fate this thread must succumb to. Such is the nature of its very foundation. Let the people speak, for they are the very voice of the rulers themselves.

TL;DR: We play...-arth?

 

[Veril]

I was interested in something with Marth that I figured I should ask here. I don't play him, so I may not know anything of what I speak, but I heard his side-B is an asset, as well as a good combo that leads into a kill. I just wanted to know, what is:

A. The best combination to use (or, since it may be situational, the most common combination to use) of the 18 possible?
B. The percentage that it kills at from a tipper?
C. The direction it knocks you?

I figured I'd ask the people who know more about Marth+.

Poor guy thought he'd actually get useful information here.

 

[ChaosKnight]

you infracted me?!

ME?!!? ......... seriously ...

 

[ZeonStar]

Ganondorf says hi, also forward air.

 

[GHNeko]

you infracted me?!

ME?!!? ......... seriously ...

This post just blows my mind.

 

[goodoldganon]

So how do I kill with Marth in the current set? His combo potential seems pretty ok (maybe I need to get better at his SHFFL time) but I just can't combo into any kill moves. F-smash seems a whole lot laggier then I ever remember and totally unsafe on whiff. His gimp game is ok but far from awesome like other characters I'm trying atm (like MK). I'm totally lost on getting kills with Marth. HELP!

 

[GHNeko]

You just kinda smack people off the stage and keep them off.

That or you spike them or simply throw out a smart fsmash that is also tipped or smack them over and over until anything kills.

 

[VietGeek]

So how do I kill with Marth in the current set? His combo potential seems pretty ok (maybe I need to get better at his SHFFL time) but I just can't combo into any kill moves. F-smash seems a whole lot laggier then I ever remember and totally unsafe on whiff. His gimp game is ok but far from awesome like other characters I'm trying atm (like MK). I'm totally lost on getting kills with Marth. HELP!

Marth+ is a lot like Roy in terms of killing. You have to get reads to kill, there are no consistently legitimate combos to kill. The closest I've observed is SHFF flub fair into another one into fsmash.

you're better off swatting them offstage and then trying to tip bair them. his gimp ability at the moment is pretty mediocre. which is pretty funny considering it's still good, guess expectations have increased as this project went on.

also dair sucks. <___< The chance of you comboing into it in the current set is like...as small as the usefulness meter of B+ untipped dash attack.

Sorry to break the metagame discussion, but I was interested in something with Marth that I figured I should ask here. I don't play him, so I may not know anything of what I speak, but I heard his side-B is an asset, as well as a good combo that leads into a kill. I just wanted to know, what is:

A. The best combination to use (or, since it may be situational, the most common combination to use) of the 18 possible?
B. The percentage that it kills at from a tipper?
C. The direction it knocks you?

I figured I'd ask the people who know more about Marth+. Once again, sorry to break discussion.

A. Just neutral 3x then your choice of the finale is best. Otherwise neutral 2x, 1x down to retreat/force a tech.

B. Never. Ever. Unless your opponent has some sort of Baja California DI.

C. Up is like 70-80 (somewhere in-between). Neutral is approximately 40 degrees. Down is the same deal as neutral for finales.

D. Dashdance + Dancing Blade = DDDB. Essentially Dedede+.