Veril
Frame Savant
the +3 adv on block accounts for landing lag. This pretty much means unless a character has a 2 frame OOS option, you can get a grab with perfect timing. Know who has that? Bowser and Marth ;p
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Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+
- Thread starter VietGeek
- Start date
Not marth. Up B OOS is only invicible on frame 5 and vunerable before then. Mario is safe though, he has invincibility on first 3 frames of up B, IIRC.
Also the risks and requirements of something like that completely outweigh it's potential benefits. You'd have to hit the very frame before you land and buffer a grab, just for +3 frame advantage after landing lag.
Also the risks and requirements of something like that completely outweigh it's potential benefits. You'd have to hit the very frame before you land and buffer a grab, just for +3 frame advantage after landing lag.
The Cape
Smash Master
Hitting the move as you hit the ground is very easy to do with practice (at least to Melee players).
Marth upB is invulnerable 4+5 btw.
Not to mention the other things such as ZSS 1 frame jab cannot be buffered and have to be timed. This make's Marth fair on block very useful (and worthless from SHDF).
Marth upB is invulnerable 4+5 btw.
Not to mention the other things such as ZSS 1 frame jab cannot be buffered and have to be timed. This make's Marth fair on block very useful (and worthless from SHDF).
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
Wow. I didn't want to believe you guys, but..
SHFF fair is sex.
and shff fair -> hyphen up smash at mid percents = sex
and shff fair -> aerial and mid to lower high percents = sex
TLDR; marth = sex
SHFF fair is sex.
and shff fair -> hyphen up smash at mid percents = sex
and shff fair -> aerial and mid to lower high percents = sex
TLDR; marth = sex
Veril
Frame Savant
You should always believe me. My nimble fingers dance on numbers ;p
@Viet: I'd totally wear the tiara in this relationship...
Everyone should keep in mind that advantage on block assumes they use an OOS option. Grabbing means they have at least 8 frames before the grab comes out. Marth's grab is hella fast, no character can shield-grab Marth if he perfectly FF-fairs before Marth could grab or jab them. Jumping... 7+ frames. Up-B's may or may not be a good choice, especially if you are out of grab range and just shield it (some people just like upb OOS...).
Shield drop advantage is substantially higher.
SHFF fair is ****.
double post i will !
for glory and nice guys eat cardinal chicken ***
satisfaction is key the big elephant's resolve
new nation wonders high above
NEW AGE of coming it heard past
so will pondering of alaska lead prosperity of the customer's satisfaction?
we new try things work some they do not
alas one must focus chakra energy into chi
use the fair which requires the fair to be used until date postponed when fair is used no longer may fair be used under juridiction of the fair center where ones decides to toss away fair unless fair is used befored one thinks fair should be used immediately at all times fair is best
for glory and nice guys eat cardinal chicken ***
satisfaction is key the big elephant's resolve
new nation wonders high above
NEW AGE of coming it heard past
so will pondering of alaska lead prosperity of the customer's satisfaction?
we new try things work some they do not
alas one must focus chakra energy into chi
use the fair which requires the fair to be used until date postponed when fair is used no longer may fair be used under juridiction of the fair center where ones decides to toss away fair unless fair is used befored one thinks fair should be used immediately at all times fair is best
Andarel
Smash Apprentice
Data data data
Because I know you all want it:
Changelist for Marth from vBrawl to B+ 6.0, courtesy of myself and VietGeek.
And now for the fun part. If any of the short explanations are wrong or you can explain them better, please give me concise replacement explanations - any help is appreciated. Also, if we somehow missed something (or you're suspicious that we did), please tell me and/or VietGeek immediately and we will verify whether that is true or not. If you have PSA data to back it up, even better (makes our job that much easier).
And for those who care:
Because I know you all want it:
Changelist for Marth from vBrawl to B+ 6.0, courtesy of myself and VietGeek.
Code:
Char. ID SH FH FF DGrav Grav
Marth 11 1.150 1.125 1.075 1.025 1.200
Code:
Airdodge:
Name New: Invincible / Ends Old: Invincible / Ends
Marth 5-25 / 44 5-23 / 44 (I'd like someone to confirm this, if possible.)
Spotdodge:
Name New: Invincible / Ends Old: Invincible/Ends
Marth 2-17 / 24 2-20 / 24 (Same as above.)
Code:
Marth [MARTH]
* Physics:
- Air stopping mobility 0.010 -> 0.007
* Jab:
- (Untipped) Hitlag Multiplier: 0.70x -> 0.80x
* D-Tilt: (Made less effective for wall locks)
- (Hitbox 1) KBG 40 -> 44, Angle 30* -> 35*
- (Hitbox 2) BKB 25 -> 40, KBG 40 -> 49, Angle 30* -> 35*
- (Hitbox 3) BKB 20 -> 36, KBG 40 -> 49, Angle 30* -> 35*
- (Hitbox 4) Angle 30* -> 35*
* U-Tilt: (Sped up to increase combo and kill options and decrease punishability)
- Sped up: Wind-down reduced (1.4x Frame 13)
* F-Smash: (Matches animation better)
- Tip hitbox size increased to match graphic, weak hitbox shifted outwards to maintain tipping area (Tip size 3.0 -> 3.3, Weak hitbox 0.3 further out)
- (Tipper) SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.00x -> 1.00x
* U-Smash: (Reduced the ground hitboxes that send into the blade in order to ---)
- Suction hitboxes shifted inwards (9 -> 3.5 and -9 -> -3.5) horizontally
* N-Air: (Hitlag increased slightly to make more DI-able,
- (1st Hit, Blade) Hitlag Multiplier: 0.70x->0.85x
- Landing lag 9 -> 7 frames
* F-Air: (Wind-down increased to remove short hop double F-air, stats changed to be better for followups and SHFF F-Air)
- (Blade) Damage 10% -> 7%, BKB 40 -> 35, KBG 70 -> 80, Angle s40* -> 40*
- (Tipper) Damage 13% -> 9%, BKB 40 -> 35, KBG 80 -> 87, Angle s40*-> 70*
- Slowed down: Longer wind-down (IASA 34 -> 49), no more SHDF-Air
- Landing lag 9 -> 7 frames
* U-Air: (Growth reduced to make slightly better for juggling rather than killing)
- (Tipper) KBG 80 -> 73
- Landing lag 9 -> 7 frames
* D-Air: (Landing lag reduced to help with followups)
- Landing lag 32 -> 16 frames
* B-Air: (Damage and knockback on weak spot nerf in exchange for a larger hitbox for the tipper. Landing lag reduced.)
- (Blade) Damage 11% -> 9%, BKB KBG 85 -> 60, Angle s40* -> 30*
- (Tipper): 1.25x size, Damage 14% -> 13%, Angle s40* -> 45*
- Landing lag 21 -> 11 frames
* Neutral-B (Shield Breaker): (Easier to DI, looks flashier.)
- (Fully Charged, Sweetspot) Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x -> 1.45x
* Side-B (Dancing Blade): Heavy damage nerf to counteract No Stale Moves: -1% (Hits of 4 or less damage) or -2% (Hits of 5 or more damage) per hit
- See [TJMASB]
- Hitlag increased (See [TJMASB])
* Up-B (Dolphin Slash): (Sends at a better angle for killing, but invulnerability removed. No longer a combo-interrupter unless timed better.)
- Invulnerability only on frame 5
- (Strong Hitbox A) Angle s40* -> 40*
- (Strong Hitbox B) Angle 74* -> 40*
- (Sweetspot) Hitlag Multiplier: 0.50x -> 1.00x
* F-Throw: (Sends slightly further, better for positioning but worse for followups.)
- BKB 70 -> 80
* U-Throw: (Followup options improved.)
- Sped up: Wind-down reduced (IASA frame 33)
- KBG 120 -> 80
* B-Throw: (Better for following up and positioning.)
- Sped up: Wind-down reduced (IASA frame 45 -> 40)
- BKB 50 -> 66, KBG 60 -> 62, Angle 140* -> 120*
Code:
Marth: [TJMARTH]
* Side-B: [TJMASB] Damage heavily nerfed, connects better.
- Hitlag Multiplier: 0.30x -> 0.60x for all 5% Hits
- Hitlag Multiplier: 0.30x -> 0.65x for all 3% & 4% Hits
- Hitlag Multiplier: 0.30x -> 0.70x for all 2% Hits
- Hit 1
o Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 35 -> 36, KBG 25 -> 33
- Hit 2
o Neutral
+ (Hitbox A) Damage 3% -> 2%, BKB 22 -> 23, KBG 30 -> 45
+ (Hitbox B) Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 22 -> 23, KBG 30 -> 40
+ (Hitbox C) Damage 3% -> 2%, BKB 22 -> 23, KBG 30 -> 45
+ (Hitbox D) Damage 3% -> 2%, BKB 22 -> 21, KBG 30 -> 45
o Up
+ (Hitbox A) Damage 3% -> 2%, BKB 20 -> 21, KBG 30 -> 45
+ (Hitbox B) Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 20 -> 21, KBG 30 -> 40
+ (Hitbox C) Damage 3% -> 2%, BKB 20 -> 21, KBG 30 -> 45
+ (Hitbox D) Damage 3% -> 2%, BKB 20 -> 21, KBG 30 -> 45
- Hit 3
o Neutral
+ (Hitbox A) Damage 4% -> 3%
+ (Hitbox B) Damage 5% -> 4%
+ (Hitbox C) Damage 4% -> 3%
+ (Hitbox D) Damage 4% -> 3%
o Up
+ (Hitbox A) Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 30 -> 31, KBG 60 -> 80
+ (Hitbox B) Damage 5% -> 4%, BKB 30 -> 31, KBG 60 -> 75
+ (Hitbox C) Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 30 -> 31, KBG 60 -> 80
+ (Hitbox D) Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 30 -> 31, KBG 60 -> 80
o Down
+ (Hitbox A) Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 30 -> 31, KBG 80 -> 106
+ (Hitbox B) Damage 5% -> 4%, BKB 30 -> 31, KBG 80 -> 100
+ (Hitbox C) Damage 4% -> 3%, BKB 30 -> 31, KBG 80 -> 106
- Hit 4
o Neutral
+ (Hitbox A) Damage 6% -> 4%
+ (Hitbox B) Damage 8% -> 5%
o Up
+ (Hitbox A) Damage 6% -> 4%
+ (Hitbox B) Damage 8% -> 5%
o Down
+ (Hitbox A, Spin) Damage 2% -> 1%, BKB 2 -> 3, KBG 40 -> 80
+ (Hitbox A, Spin) Hitlag Multiplier: 0.50x -> 0.75x
+ (Hitbox A, Spin) SDI Capacity Multiplier: 1.00x -> 0.80x
+ (Hitbox B, Spin) Damage 3% -> 2%, BKB 60 -> 61, KBG 120 -> 180
+ (Hitbox A, Final Hit) Damage 5% -> 3%
Andarel
Smash Apprentice
As far as I can tell, both are unchanged. Neither the framespeed mod nor PSA for either show any differences from vBrawl.
Another guy whos not afraid to show his love for Kimi ni todoke! Brings a tear to my eye... SAWAKO!!!
lol post 666
Revan Skywalker
Smash Cadet
this ain´t marth anymore...
double fair has to come back, come on...
this just doesn't feel right
double fair has to come back, come on...
this just doesn't feel right
Revan Skywalker
Smash Cadet
lol good name...
but seriously, tell em to bring the double fair back in the gold release or even earlier <.<
but seriously, tell em to bring the double fair back in the gold release or even earlier <.<
Rarth+ Prologue
Code:
19:58 RiceCar so the mulberry tree was chopped down by cape
19:58 Windbox what's this about a mulberry tree being chopped down?
19:58 Windbox WHAT TREASON IS THIS
20:00 RiceCar CAPE TORN THE TRUNK OFF THE ROOTS
20:00 RiceCar AND PROCLAIMED
20:00 RiceCar TODAY
20:00 RiceCar THE HISTORY OF ALTEA SHALL BE WRITTEN IN BLOOD
20:00 RiceCar NOT ONLY THAT
20:00 RiceCar BUT
20:01 RiceCar HE USED THE FALCHION TO NEGATE THE MULBERRY BARRIER
20:01 RiceCar THAT COULD ONLY MEAN
20:01 RiceCar ...
20:01 RiceCar THE PRINCE IS DEAD
20:01 Windbox our fair marth, what has become of you?
20:02 RiceCar it is most unfortunate
20:02 RiceCar but we have taken the prince's cousin in
20:02 RiceCar he does not seem to be very effective with the sword tho
20:03 RiceCar he hails from...elibe?
20:03 Windbox then we must train him
20:03 Windbox and avenge our prince's death
20:03 Windbox and that of the mulberry tree
20:03 RiceCar yes we must
20:03 RiceCar the winds of change are in our favor!
20:03 RiceCar obv
20:03 Windbox obv
20:04 Windbox but...
20:04 Windbox there exists a new presence, one that resists such change
20:04 RiceCar !!!
20:04 Windbox alas, I fear we cannot overcome him
20:04 RiceCar ...who is this man?
20:05 Windbox a researcher who has attained the ultimate of power, known only as "Veril"
20:06 RiceCar ...i-it can't be...
20:06 Windbox but it is
20:06 Windbox and it will be
20:06 Windbox we cannot face this man alone!
20:07 Windbox we must beat him at his own game to stand a chance...
20:07 Windbox a call to arms!
20:07 Windbox for those who still believe in the mulberry tree must be united
20:07 Windbox we will attain power from his only weakness
20:07 Windbox data
20:08 RiceCar are there any followers of the tree that can use such power?!
20:08 Windbox yes
20:08 Windbox you
20:08 Windbox and I
20:08 Windbox and anyone who believes in the power of mulberry tree
20:09 Windbox the winds of wisdom blow, and reveal the path that we must follow
20:09 RiceCar and so...we shall truly do this...with prince rarth?
20:09 Windbox we have no other choiceRevan Skywalker
Smash Cadet
so this is the day marth dies...
EDIT:
actually this no double fair **** made me think of starting to play vBrawl again... I played for a while and then i got reminded how awesome tripping is...
EDIT:
actually this no double fair **** made me think of starting to play vBrawl again... I played for a while and then i got reminded how awesome tripping is...
so ya, just a word of advice to all of those complaining about the death of our fair prince:
YO KIDS LISTEN UP
WE GOT SOME SCRUBBY *** KID HERE NAMED RARTH
SAYS HE DONT KNOWS HOW TO USE A SWORD
INSTEAD OF MOANING WHINING AND COMPLAINING
LETS GO OUT THERE AND:
1. TEACH RARTH HOW TO USE A MOTHERF*CKING SWORD
2. SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO THE GREAT MULBERRY TREE ALLIANCE
3. IN GENERAL BE GAYER BETTER STRONGER AND LEARN HOW TO DANCE MAGGOTS
4. ???
5. THEN WE CAN FIGHT THE MASTERMIND "VERIL"
6. NO SH*T THERES NO PROFIT THAT CAME IN STEPS 1-3
GET WITH THE PLANS BOYS
RANDOM REBELLIONS WILL NOT BRING PEACE BACK TO GREAT ALTEA
WE MUST FOLLOW THE WISE WORDS WHISTLED IN THE WIND OF THE GREAT MULBERRY TREE
THE STRAWBERRY ALBATROSS WILL FLY EXUBERANTLY ONCE MORE
ALL HAIL
AND GLORY TO THE GODDESS !
YO KIDS LISTEN UP
WE GOT SOME SCRUBBY *** KID HERE NAMED RARTH
SAYS HE DONT KNOWS HOW TO USE A SWORD
INSTEAD OF MOANING WHINING AND COMPLAINING
LETS GO OUT THERE AND:
1. TEACH RARTH HOW TO USE A MOTHERF*CKING SWORD
2. SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO THE GREAT MULBERRY TREE ALLIANCE
3. IN GENERAL BE GAYER BETTER STRONGER AND LEARN HOW TO DANCE MAGGOTS
4. ???
5. THEN WE CAN FIGHT THE MASTERMIND "VERIL"
6. NO SH*T THERES NO PROFIT THAT CAME IN STEPS 1-3
GET WITH THE PLANS BOYS
RANDOM REBELLIONS WILL NOT BRING PEACE BACK TO GREAT ALTEA
WE MUST FOLLOW THE WISE WORDS WHISTLED IN THE WIND OF THE GREAT MULBERRY TREE
THE STRAWBERRY ALBATROSS WILL FLY EXUBERANTLY ONCE MORE
ALL HAIL
AND GLORY TO THE GODDESS !
Veril
Frame Savant
Your little rebellion amuses me.
I cannot be defeated by puns alone.
Viet shall lead you to
Best of luck, Rarth is rapesauce.
He's just gotta stop crying over SHDF
those tears belong to
I will do science on them
I cannot be defeated by puns alone.
Viet shall lead you to
Best of luck, Rarth is rapesauce.
He's just gotta stop crying over SHDF
those tears belong to
I will do science on them
I'm more annoyed about the physics, some of the throws, and how hitting with the blade on fair > hitting with the tip on fair, which is 100% not marth at all.
****. Keep SHDF. I just want Marth to feel like Marth. ;__;
****. Keep SHDF. I just want Marth to feel like Marth. ;__;
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Don't forget that cries blood and feasts on angels.
All for Rarth rebellion!
If you don't rebel, get aboard the train and gtfo! The train's destination is Brokeville, and will either get there or go off a cliff and die trying!
cries blood and feasts on angels.All for Rarth rebellion!
If you don't rebel, get aboard the train and gtfo! The train's destination is Brokeville, and will either get there or go off a cliff and die trying!
The destination is the second one.
5ive
Smash Champion
Somewhat agreed. Too bad we are 2 of 3209723106731209617069 people. IMO, Rarth is okay, but I'd push for a compromise if possible.
Veril
Frame Savant
How can you possibly be annoyed with the throws? I can't even take these Marth complaints seriously anymore. You guys are acting like scrubby Ness mains after we changed that stupid fair. Man the f*** up!
Nothing is going to get me to bring back SH-double fair, and I'm not going to alter any character's physics at this point because I'd also have to modify aerial IASAs and autocancel points. I won't buff Marth's throws. Marth is not special and he doesn't fall outside my general philosophy for changes at this point. I'm not changing Marth anytime soon, and the only change I'd even vaguely consider at any point is switching the SHLD on fair tippers and non-tippers.
Arguing this point still is really just showing me that I shouldn't bother even responding when people bring it up.
Nothing is going to get me to bring back SH-double fair, and I'm not going to alter any character's physics at this point because I'd also have to modify aerial IASAs and autocancel points. I won't buff Marth's throws. Marth is not special and he doesn't fall outside my general philosophy for changes at this point. I'm not changing Marth anytime soon, and the only change I'd even vaguely consider at any point is switching the SHLD on fair tippers and non-tippers.
Arguing this point still is really just showing me that I shouldn't bother even responding when people bring it up.
Yes I'm annoyed with the throws.
I'm annoyed with fthrow because the reason why it was nerfed is no longer valid due to the reduction of hitstun, yet the nerf is still in, which makes no sense to keep a change in when the reason for the change no longer exists.
And IIRC, viet never finalized bthrow/dthrow, which had no reason to be tinkered with in the first place? So Rarth atm has non-final bthrow/dthrow.
That's what annoys me about his throws.
I don't even want his bthrow/dthrow buffed. I just want those reverted. Fthrow is completely different because the nerf should be revert for the reason it changed in the first place ie Cape talking about "you can fthrow > fsmash at any percent regardless of DI etc etc" when something like that is only possible due to hitstun, which was reduce, meaning that you can't do that anymore, and if you can, its already at kill percents, AND fsmash was made more survivable with good DI making it less legit for killing. If it wasnt for fthrow > fsmash in RC1, I'm willing to bet fthrow would of never been changed.
And the physics don't even remotely feel Marth-like.
"Man the **** up!" could be said about a **** ton of things in B+, Veril. :/
I'm annoyed with fthrow because the reason why it was nerfed is no longer valid due to the reduction of hitstun, yet the nerf is still in, which makes no sense to keep a change in when the reason for the change no longer exists.
And IIRC, viet never finalized bthrow/dthrow, which had no reason to be tinkered with in the first place? So Rarth atm has non-final bthrow/dthrow.
That's what annoys me about his throws.
I don't even want his bthrow/dthrow buffed. I just want those reverted. Fthrow is completely different because the nerf should be revert for the reason it changed in the first place ie Cape talking about "you can fthrow > fsmash at any percent regardless of DI etc etc" when something like that is only possible due to hitstun, which was reduce, meaning that you can't do that anymore, and if you can, its already at kill percents, AND fsmash was made more survivable with good DI making it less legit for killing. If it wasnt for fthrow > fsmash in RC1, I'm willing to bet fthrow would of never been changed.
And the physics don't even remotely feel Marth-like.
"Man the **** up!" could be said about a **** ton of things in B+, Veril. :/
Veril
Frame Savant
Marth's throws are fine. If you really want to argue throw data with me... god I shouldn't even have to at this point.
I tell people to man up when they complain to me about things that aren't actually significant problems. "See the Lucario Johns at Pound 4". No group is as actively b****y as this. I'm f***ing done here.
I tell people to man up when they complain to me about things that aren't actually significant problems. "See the Lucario Johns at Pound 4". No group is as actively b****y as this. I'm f***ing done here.
Did I ever say they weren't fine? No. I said I was annoyed with them. I personally don't like them as they are because of the backing of the throw changes, which are not solid.
Was I ever arguing throw data with you? No.
I'm looking at the history of the throws. Not what they can do and what potential they have.
I also can't understand how you honestly expect the mains of a character to be content with who they main when said main doesnt even feel like the character they main.
Some of us complain because of how he feels. Not because he's bad or too good or whatever.
Was I ever arguing throw data with you? No.
I'm looking at the history of the throws. Not what they can do and what potential they have.
I also can't understand how you honestly expect the mains of a character to be content with who they main when said main doesnt even feel like the character they main.
Some of us complain because of how he feels. Not because he's bad or too good or whatever.
neko bthrow stats are where they should be, iasa-wise it was tweaked for the best.
but my dthrow change never got in for some reason.
or rather it may have been removed without justification
it was just an angle change so that it would be a tech chase now.
as for fthrow, it was to purposely weaken follow-ups. In fact I'm quite sure if you DI it correctly and you're part of midweight class at mid and above percentages, Marth really can't connect with anything and instead has to yomi for any follow-ups. yes marth requires a lot more reading now. go brush up on roy tactics, you'll need it.
i think the only thing anyone might be disappointed in is that while marth has lost a lot of easy combos, he didn't receive the same sort of compensation other characters got. Bluntly speaking, he never got anything to consistently set-up tech chases with.
marth keeps a lot closer to the ground now. he's a true mish-mash or melee marth/roy/vbrawl marth now. if any of you would demand anything for various losses of full air combos is some sort of easy way to consistently initiate a tech chase that can be capitalized upon (meaning Dancing Blade Down 3 does not count <_<).
other than that I suggest everyone here join leaf and I on the route to restoring Altea like REAL F*CKING MEN
but my dthrow change never got in for some reason.
or rather it may have been removed without justification
it was just an angle change so that it would be a tech chase now.
as for fthrow, it was to purposely weaken follow-ups. In fact I'm quite sure if you DI it correctly and you're part of midweight class at mid and above percentages, Marth really can't connect with anything and instead has to yomi for any follow-ups. yes marth requires a lot more reading now. go brush up on roy tactics, you'll need it.
i think the only thing anyone might be disappointed in is that while marth has lost a lot of easy combos, he didn't receive the same sort of compensation other characters got. Bluntly speaking, he never got anything to consistently set-up tech chases with.
marth keeps a lot closer to the ground now. he's a true mish-mash or melee marth/roy/vbrawl marth now. if any of you would demand anything for various losses of full air combos is some sort of easy way to consistently initiate a tech chase that can be capitalized upon (meaning Dancing Blade Down 3 does not count <_<).
other than that I suggest everyone here join leaf and I on the route to restoring Altea like REAL F*CKING MEN
Veril
Frame Savant
Viet, you should really have talked to me about the d-throw earlier.
That's a legit point... if it simply got overlooked or accidentally removed... converting d-throws into tech chase setups has been a consistent pattern I've followed in regards to balancing throws. The problem is that you didn't let me know when I could have fixed this problem infinitely more easily. That's one of those things I just wasn't aware of cause it was from before I got this promotion (and you were working on it for Cape), but I'd rather discuss that... not here.
I think after the fiasco with the dash-canceling code (that I never saw before it got into the set) that I really dislike when things slip through the cracks like that.
In response to the f-throw not having true combos at higher %: that's true of many throws with the lowered hitstun. As to the "history of the throws": Don't care. MK used to have a CG with his d-throw. I'm not sad to see it go and I abused the s*** out of that when it was possible.
That's a legit point... if it simply got overlooked or accidentally removed... converting d-throws into tech chase setups has been a consistent pattern I've followed in regards to balancing throws. The problem is that you didn't let me know when I could have fixed this problem infinitely more easily. That's one of those things I just wasn't aware of cause it was from before I got this promotion (and you were working on it for Cape), but I'd rather discuss that... not here.
I think after the fiasco with the dash-canceling code (that I never saw before it got into the set) that I really dislike when things slip through the cracks like that.
In response to the f-throw not having true combos at higher %: that's true of many throws with the lowered hitstun. As to the "history of the throws": Don't care. MK used to have a CG with his d-throw. I'm not sad to see it go and I abused the s*** out of that when it was possible.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Lol, Marth mains are the new Ness mains. 
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Alright. Here's the deal with marth/rarth. There are four main points of contention, three of which have already been mentioned in this thread.
1) Dthrow
2) Fthrow
3) Aerial Stopping Mobility
4) SHLD
1) Dthrow:
This move was supposed to have been edited to be an actual techchase throw, but for some reason, that change never got in. In its current form, the move looks like it's great for setting up techchases. However, once an opponent learns that they can DI up and wiggle out before hitting the ground, it's usefulness is largely negated. I'm not sure if this was possible before the hitstun reduction, but I know it happens much more often now than it did before.
2) Fthrow:
I somewhat agree with neko about this change. The original intention of the nerf was to prevent easy combos, but with lower hitstun, this may not be necessary (or at least to the same degree that it was previously). I would like to try this move at varying levels of base between its current form and the original. Ideally, the original would be workable in the current hitstun, but I highly doubt that is the case. It may be that the current version is the only version that is workable even now. However, this is one of the (many) changes that I believe need to be revisited due to the lower hitstun, as a lot of moves were tested and modified before cape's builds using the assumption that the hitstun would remain at .48 (although I admittedly don't know how many of those moves cape went back over, so the number of moves that need to be revisited may actually be far smaller than I thought).
3) Aerial Stopping Mobility:
This is a change most marth mains have probably forgotten about by now. I had forgotten about it, myself, actually, until lanstar reminded me. Yes, I am aware it is a core physics change for the character. However, it was made at a time when we were still trying to mitigate fair camping. With the loss of SHDF forcing marth to be more committed to his actions, it may be justified to remove this nerf. I doubt you'll actually let this happen due to it having to do with marth's physics, but I figured I may as well mention it.
4) SHLD:
I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the SHLD problem. It is most certainly within his character to have more hitlag on the tip than on the blade, but having better advantages on block with the blade than the tip is somewhat... asinine. That said, reducing the advantage on block of the blade and increasing it on the tip would probably be more of a nerf than anything. Unless the multipliers are completely removed (and not just brought closer to 1), the advantage of the new tip is not going to exceed that of the old blade, and will in fact probably still be smaller. Marth's tip is already fairly safe on most attacks, if only because of its range, so improving its advantage will actually end up having less of an impact on his game than reducing the advantage of the blade. This is particularly notable on his fair, with its positive advantage on block allowing marth to get a grab in before his opponent does if he doesn't tip it. Overall, if marth needs some small nerf to get the other changes in, this is probably a good one.
There are some other changes marth players have mentioned to me (such as giving marth IASA into just jump and upB on fair at the old IASA point, since the current nerf hinders his gimping game, when as far as I know, that was not the intention), but these are the main ones that I think could be implemented without raising any new balance issues.
1) Dthrow
2) Fthrow
3) Aerial Stopping Mobility
4) SHLD
1) Dthrow:
This move was supposed to have been edited to be an actual techchase throw, but for some reason, that change never got in. In its current form, the move looks like it's great for setting up techchases. However, once an opponent learns that they can DI up and wiggle out before hitting the ground, it's usefulness is largely negated. I'm not sure if this was possible before the hitstun reduction, but I know it happens much more often now than it did before.
2) Fthrow:
I somewhat agree with neko about this change. The original intention of the nerf was to prevent easy combos, but with lower hitstun, this may not be necessary (or at least to the same degree that it was previously). I would like to try this move at varying levels of base between its current form and the original. Ideally, the original would be workable in the current hitstun, but I highly doubt that is the case. It may be that the current version is the only version that is workable even now. However, this is one of the (many) changes that I believe need to be revisited due to the lower hitstun, as a lot of moves were tested and modified before cape's builds using the assumption that the hitstun would remain at .48 (although I admittedly don't know how many of those moves cape went back over, so the number of moves that need to be revisited may actually be far smaller than I thought).
3) Aerial Stopping Mobility:
This is a change most marth mains have probably forgotten about by now. I had forgotten about it, myself, actually, until lanstar reminded me. Yes, I am aware it is a core physics change for the character. However, it was made at a time when we were still trying to mitigate fair camping. With the loss of SHDF forcing marth to be more committed to his actions, it may be justified to remove this nerf. I doubt you'll actually let this happen due to it having to do with marth's physics, but I figured I may as well mention it.
4) SHLD:
I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the SHLD problem. It is most certainly within his character to have more hitlag on the tip than on the blade, but having better advantages on block with the blade than the tip is somewhat... asinine. That said, reducing the advantage on block of the blade and increasing it on the tip would probably be more of a nerf than anything. Unless the multipliers are completely removed (and not just brought closer to 1), the advantage of the new tip is not going to exceed that of the old blade, and will in fact probably still be smaller. Marth's tip is already fairly safe on most attacks, if only because of its range, so improving its advantage will actually end up having less of an impact on his game than reducing the advantage of the blade. This is particularly notable on his fair, with its positive advantage on block allowing marth to get a grab in before his opponent does if he doesn't tip it. Overall, if marth needs some small nerf to get the other changes in, this is probably a good one.
There are some other changes marth players have mentioned to me (such as giving marth IASA into just jump and upB on fair at the old IASA point, since the current nerf hinders his gimping game, when as far as I know, that was not the intention), but these are the main ones that I think could be implemented without raising any new balance issues.
Not what I was saying though. .__.
Revan Skywalker
Smash Cadet
i just want to know why you guys removed SHDF... - it´s like one of Marth´s most essential "moves" and just belongs to him. Why do you change him that much? Do you wanna remove Falcon´s knee? or Falco´s laser?
...
...
Veril
Frame Savant
D-throw can't be DIed on reaction by the lighter half of the cast and its almost impossible for the heavies to do so as well. Its got a base release frame of 16 and its weight dependent. People aren't gonna be able to DI up unless you are using this spamming this throw like an idiot.
@above: Yes we did nerf/remove things like: Falco's laser, DDD double bair, Pikachu's down throw semi-infinite. The Marth fair change has been explained.
@above: Yes we did nerf/remove things like: Falco's laser, DDD double bair, Pikachu's down throw semi-infinite. The Marth fair change has been explained.
Not happening.
Thunderhorse+
Smash Ace
In an ironic turn of events, we've already removed Falco's SHDL! Now both him and Marth can only do one Laser/fair in a single SH!
If Falcon had an SHDK, we'd be all over that **** too.
Veril
Frame Savant
We also toned down the combos into knee.