Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[Revan Skywalker]

i wonder what´s the topic´s name..

 

[VietGeek]

im not white neko

im a =Veeaboo

Spoiler

but i dont really like japan...

or really any country in asia, all their governments SUCK

i think i'd like canada the most...>_>

 

[Revan Skywalker]

well let´s hope SHDF will be in project melee, brawl+ is almost dead without marth for me.

*picks up falcon*

 

[leafgreen386]

D-throw can't be DIed on reaction by the lighter half of the cast and its almost impossible for the heavies to do so as well. Its got a base release frame of 16 and its weight dependent. People aren't gonna be able to DI up unless you are using this spamming this throw like an idiot.

Does it matter if it can't be DI'd on reaction? If it's DI'd, you get a measly 5% out of it and nothing happens. If they don't DI and you misread the tech... you still get a measly 5% out of it and nothing happens. Throws that are designed to set up techchases should at worst set up techchases. Last I checked, there are plenty of throws that set up combos if you DI them wrong, and set up techchases if you DI them correctly. This is a throw that sets up a techchase if you DI it wrong, and sets up for nothing if you DI it correctly (and wiggle/airdodge/attack out). When you use a techchase throw, you're already taking a risk hoping to reap a better reward. The opponent should not have the ability to get out of the techchasing situation from the outset, and at percents where none of his other throws lead into anything, it isn't that hard to predict a dthrow. And what's the worst that could happen? You botch your DI on another throw and just have to AD through the followup? (Yes, I know there are baiting games with airdodges and such, but those would happen regardless of how you DI'd.)

Not happening.

I knew you wouldn't allow the aerial stopping mobility change go through, however I'm a bit confused what the problem is with the dthrow. It was supposed to have been fixed to actually set up techchases regardless of what the opponent does. That's it. The move does not work the way it's supposed to work. This is a fix for that, making the minimum change necessary to get it to act properly, which last I checked, is something your current change philosophy allows.

As for fthrow... I don't understand why you don't want to go back over these kinds of moves. Fthrow is a move I want to go back over not because it's marth, but because the nerf was implemented at a time when the physics (hitstun) were different from how they are now, on something that's fairly hitstun sensitive. This is something I would want to see done for every character that has had a change like this implemented, be it a buff or a nerf. Of course, if you aren't going to go back over the others, too, then I understand why you aren't going back over marth's fthrow, but I really think that's something you should reconsider.

And as for the SHLD... uh... ok. Sure. Whatever. It's a nerf. If it doesn't get in I'm sure most marth mains would actually be happier that way.

On a lighter note...

i have to say this topic became hilarious somehow

my standards for entertainment must have dropped due to the dreaded vietwinter syndrome

This.

 

[VietGeek]

While I am actually pretty oblivious to human emotions and often misinterpret...

I think everyone needs to understand that Veril is very set on his ways, and one of his desires is to truly get Brawl+ accepted on a more universal level. This is very much the sole reason why these changes will not be accepted, and that is that.

He has already touched on the topic of inconsistency (at least towards how often changes occur) and how it affects higher-leveled players from committing seriously to Brawl Plus. Leaf, you and I both know that anymore changes would cause a backlash considering how the WBR stands on changes now, especially with the tons of official and casual commentary from both Cape and Veril regarding what being "Near Gold" means.

Also as 'new' leader of the Brawl Plus project, he needs to set up a good foundation for himself and where he stands. Whatever changes that go into Brawl+ all ultimately go back to his decision, and therefore he needs to be able to justify all changes as well as sincerely support them himself; similar to how everyone blames all of Brawl's shortcomings on Sakurai. He doesn't have the same level of recognition as Cape does, although we are seeing first-hand that this "issue" will be short-lived.

Leaf...we made a promise...that we will reclaim Altea and bring it to its former glory with Prince Rarth...but we are not strong enough yet.

We must...we must live on! For the sake of the people who have fallen for us! We must grow ever stronger and only then can we fight the menace! To fight now...to fight now is only a death wish on our behalf!

Quickly, we must regroup and escape!

ALL HAIL THE GREAT WARRIOR AND GLORY TO GODDESS WHOM PROTECTS OUR HEARTS FROM CORRUPTION!

 

[Self Distructo]

it's always so dramatic when it comes to hermaphrodites

 

[Veril]

I think everyone needs to understand that Veril is very set on his ways, and one of his desires is to truly get Brawl+ accepted on a more universal level. This is very much the sole reason why these changes will not be accepted, and that is that.

Viet understands. If this all happened a month ago, I would consider everything Leaf posted EXCEPT bringing back SHDF. That's gone for good and I wouldn't bring it back even if I was in a position where it was easy to do so.

 

[GHNeko]

That's all fine and dandy, just as long as you dont rule out minor balance changes ala Blizzard/Capcom/Valve over the course of the upcoming years after a solid base metagame has developed and all the mechanics/stages/glitches are all done and done.

 

[VietGeek]

Those companies are also businesses and also try to "make everyone happy" by offering usually ample compensation to keep fans of both hardcore and casual bases satisfied while improving balance, even if the achieved balance in question is nearly negligible. In which case the issues in question aren't large anyway.

But that's going off the tangent of game design theory. I think Sirlin is better at that than some loser teenager.

So...I'm instead going to say that Brawl+ is purely a reputation-based game. We don't make revenue (legal reasons even if we were high enough on mulberry juice to consider it). Right now we lack the reputation to go against our word (of staying conservative with the game). Also we need to build significantly past the current level of rep to be able to expand the community to a respectable height (like larger than random doujin fighter level).

When we achieve all of this and more, maybe we can go back and polish things up. Maybe. I think that possibility is better coming from my mouth than coming from someone who actually matters in the long run though. Like you said, it takes a while for even minor changes to seep into players' hands simple so the game can run its course as-is and both players and developers can see it in full bloom before making/proposing changes haphazardly.

I'd like to add that dividing personal and community interests is difficult...Marth...

 

[leafgreen386]

Viet understands. If this all happened a month ago, I would consider everything Leaf posted EXCEPT bringing back SHDF. That's gone for good and I wouldn't bring it back even if I was in a position where it was easy to do so.

The thing is, they're all fairly small changes. Brawl+ has always been developed under the pretense of "if we can improve it, we should." As brawl+ became more developed, the "improvements" became smaller and smaller, but they're yet to become nonexistent. I know you want to keep things steady and let things develop, but you're applying a philosophy for the macro level to the micro level. Ignoring these small little polishes (making stuff work exactly the way we intended it to) really isn't a good idea imo, even if you have called the set "near gold." The fact that it is only near gold and not yet gold means that there is still some small room for tweaking. While the game should be kept largely as is, if small changes can be agreed to be for the better, it is of my opinion that they should be put in. There's nothing wrong with rigorous review, but there is something wrong with not implementing something after it's been agreed to improve the game.

Oh, and I actually never said anything about the SHDF, so I don't know why you're mentioning it. I did talk about the SHLD some, and I mentioned an idea another marth player had about giving marth IASA on fair with just jump and upB, but I never suggested that the SHDF be put back in.

@Viet: Yeah, brawl+ depends on its reputation to spread, although that's true for every game more or less. Making big drastic changes at this point would indeed be a horrible idea, but I just don't see the evil in making small tweaks right now. This is a set that is going to last a long time, and as such it should be as good as it possibly can be. If that means that there still need to be some small changes made while keeping it within its current mold, then so be it.

 

[Vlade]

Just thought I'd point out that you spelt Marth wrong in Japanese VietGeek

Unless it was deliberate

 

[GHNeko]

Pro @ lurking. Wayyy 2 pro.

 

[Allied]

The thing is, they're all fairly small changes. Brawl+ has always been developed under the pretense of "if we can improve it, we should." As brawl+ became more developed, the "improvements" became smaller and smaller, but they're yet to become nonexistent. I know you want to keep things steady and let things develop, but you're applying a philosophy for the macro level to the micro level. Ignoring these small little polishes (making stuff work exactly the way we intended it to) really isn't a good idea imo, even if you have called the set "near gold." The fact that it is only near gold and not yet gold means that there is still some small room for tweaking. While the game should be kept largely as is, if small changes can be agreed to be for the better, it is of my opinion that they should be put in. There's nothing wrong with rigorous review, but there is something wrong with not implementing something after it's been agreed to improve the game.

Oh, and I actually never said anything about the SHDF, so I don't know why you're mentioning it. I did talk about the SHLD some, and I mentioned an idea another marth player had about giving marth IASA on fair with just jump and upB, but I never suggested that the SHDF be put back in.

@Viet: Yeah, brawl+ depends on its reputation to spread, although that's true for every game more or less. Making big drastic changes at this point would indeed be a horrible idea, but I just don't see the evil in making small tweaks right now. This is a set that is going to last a long time, and as such it should be as good as it possibly can be. If that means that there still need to be some small changes made while keeping it within its current mold, then so be it.

Because leaf with every single small tweak you do you still are changing the game and therefore turning that 1 more person off to the game. Why do you think alot of people have been turned off to brawl+ after a while of playing it and are quitting to play even regular brawl now because simply enough you guys are on 6.0 right now its been too much people are getting sick of keeping up with the updates, the metagame isn't evolving and before you say the metagame can still evolve with minor tweaks no it can't, because some times those tweaks can completely change some matchups ex. jiggs upthrow, falco jab -> regrab etc

Heres a very good example and heres why i give kind of golden respect to street fighter 4 even though its not a perfect fighter what you should recognize is, there is no such thing as a competitive fighter being balanced, as long as there is a competitive fighter out there. There will be High Tier and Low tier, What i liked about street fighter 4 and even brawl+ was even though there was high tier and low tier the idea was to make sure even the low tier character was a threat, even the characters not winning every tournament can still content with the big dogs with enough practice.

What alot of Old and current pros are having problems with brawl+ is that it is simply changing too much to the point where people can't keep up anymore i mean i've only played brawl+ about 20 times total i'd say on 3 different major patches and IT HAS CHANGED SOOO MUCH in the short time span even by just simple minor changes.

So brawl+ the project you guys have been working for, that you guys want to work out, and get respected will never get this if you don't let the metagame evolve. even i would say regardless of infinites i was telling Veril

You guys should just STOP updating brawl+ for a SOLID 12 months straight

Lets say 3 infinies get discovered don't run into OMG OMG OMG OMG WE GOTTA NERF THIS no no no lets work with it for now how do you think regular brawl is XD metaknight is still on top but hes not being banned people are working around it and its been working so far i mean we got a diddy kong winning nationals thats a big step in the right direction.


sorry for a big *** post XD<3

 

[Veril]

I want a balance between both those opinions really. Its a question of ensuring that the desired effects are arising from the changes we've made while respecting the legitimate point that EVERY BRAWL PRO I'VE EVER TALKED TO has held. While Allied looks like he's got an ultraconservative mindset, it really isn't.

On the other hand there are now, and will inevitably be changes that I must make for the sake of the game. Each change costs me something... so I have to make as few as possible. People deserve to know that there's solid reasoning behind all the changes and I like to think these guidelines (+ encyclopedic knowledge of data... so sad lol) are why I've been able to actually talk with players who have these mindsets and have them actually hear me out... like Allied, who has had to endure my relentless geekery irl ;p

 

[Allied]

marth is gay anyway nerf that fool

inb4 angry marth mains

 

[GHNeko]

marth is gay anyway nerf that fool

inb4 angry marth mains

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff raaaaaaagggeeeee haaaateee

etc etc etc

 

[Veril]

marth is gay anyway nerf that fool

inb4 angry marth mains

Sigged. That made my day.

This whole s***storm has actually made me want to pick up Marth and rage-second him.

 

[GHNeko]

lawl hold on. the only one really making a "big deal" out of this is pretty much me. I'm the most vocal one.

Don't go stereotyping Marth mains like that when at most its like 3 people complaining, even though there are only like 10 marth users.

 

[VietGeek]

Don't go stereotyping Marth mains like that.

marth mains are whiny *****es

Just thought I'd point out that you spelt Marth wrong in Japanese VietGeek

Unless it was deliberate

there is no marth, only marth mains

and prince rarth

all hail

i already have rarth's theme song picked out.

 

[GHNeko]

nuh uh marth mains are a bunch of weeaboos not whiny *****es i dont see anyone in mgd really *****ing about things

 

[CountKaiser]

Sigged. That made my day.

This whole s***storm has actually made me want to pick up Marth and rage-second him.

Now look at what you guys have done? Now Veril is going to pick up Marth just like Cape picked up ness, and then he's going to get tired of Marth mains and declare them a pox upon the earth. Then Marth mains will become a meme, and then Veril will leave.

Stop the madness now!

 

[Revan Skywalker]

maybe he will recognize that Rarth has a almost completely different playstyle than Marth and... probly will give him some fire to complete this evil metamorphosis *.*

 

[Rudra]

No....
You can take Roy's SHFF playstyle...but you can never ever take his Ph1r3!
obv.

 

[Andarel]

Then give him ice.

And ice caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar.

 

[JCaesar]

Lets say 3 infinies get discovered don't run into OMG OMG OMG OMG WE GOTTA NERF THIS no no no lets work with it for now how do you think regular brawl is XD metaknight is still on top but hes not being banned people are working around it and its been working so far i mean we got a diddy kong winning nationals thats a big step in the right direction.

1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Lucario/Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)

Yeah I see what you mean. I only hope that Brawl+ can aspire to these heights.

 

[Veril]

Yeah, we aim a whole h*** of a lot higher than that.

That list made me puke in my mouth a little bit.

 

[Bube_Marth]

Oh... my... god...
What the hell did you do?
This isn't Marth.


Things has been changed that mirrored Marth's image.
His SHDF was HIS move. It is incredible what changes Marth users had to take, but now this.
Why not remove Falcon's knee and Dedede's grabs? It is the same.

I say, nerf him, change him, whatever. But let him be a MARTH please..!

You can't expect, that any Marth user will keep staying in the Brawl+ community. Every Marth user I know, said they would leave Brawl+, and that is **** sad man!
I personally would switch to Melee or vBrawl. Why? Because Marth is my main character for ever. So I won't play a smash bros. without a Marth...

Punch me, but that's my opinion to the latest Marth/Rarth changes.

 

[VietGeek]

Then Marth mains will become a meme, and then Veril will leave.

Stop the madness now!

Response 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGJbYpeDMZg

Response 2: We were ALWAYS a meme...the quacks that stormed the very heavens themselves and brought hell asunder...to the great Mulberry Tree that swept the evils of the lands and seas away to the great warrior who lays claim to the great Britannia, and furthermore, will truly claim it under the divine jurisdiction of Goddess obv.

Response 3 (a song that unites all Rarth users): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V7aUT13qtM

 

[Self Distructo]

Marth has natural blue hair, a tiara, and can hit someone a mile away. This is unrealistic and therefore broken.

 

[VietGeek]

i main melee but brawl+ is a good counterpick vs marth

 

[Revan Skywalker]

brawl+ is marth's only natural enemy

 

[Self Distructo]

brawl + sucks

 

[VietGeek]

the first post has been updated in part of the Great Cultural Revolution and so that we may all move forward to victory

 

[Veril]

I'm gonna just leave here and think Marth over without needing to deal with the overwhelming rage this thread always makes me feel...

His physics, according to everyone just about, seem off. So I'll look at that. Viet, PM me with anything I might not already know about Marth's physics and what would constitute more Marth-esque mechanics. I need to keep the SH the same duration.

I'm not compromising on bringing back SHDF or modifying his moveset in any way other than his physics ASIDE from the SH which must remain the same frame duration.

 

[Bube_Marth]

@Self Distructo

who cares about realistic in games?

anyways, a mile away..? lol

Samus can, Falco can, Fox can, Link can and so on. But not Marth *lol*

 

[Revan Skywalker]

the physics don't feel that wrong at all in my eyes, it's mostly that you changed Marth's gameplay by removing the SHDF.
And you can give me as much god****ed data about his new comboes as you want, i don't care. I didn't pick Marth up because of data. Actuall, I'd say nobody does pick his character because of data. You pick a character because you feel comfortable with him, because you love his playstyle. Otherwise we can fulfill this "fox only, Final destination" stereotype - cuz this is gonna happen if you'd go just after data.
So if i don't feel comfortable with Rarth and his new "amazing" comboes - and so do many former Marth mainers - i won't play Rarth, and data will be the very last thing to change my mind...

 

[leafgreen386]

You guys really need to stop complaining about SHDF. It's not happening, and it wasn't that big of a loss; marth's fair is still an amazing move. The reason for SHDF's removal was because of FHDF: an unintended side-effect, but a necessary one.

SHDF has never been an approach option and it has never been a shield pressure option. It has always been a combo option after you already got a hit in, and it only worked at low percents. Technically, you could approach with it, but if it got shielded, you were screwed. I did use SHDF, and I do miss having it in places where it would be appropriate, but you guys are blowing this way out of proportion, and making the rest of us look bad to boot.

There's some other stuff I wanted to say to veril and allied, but that's on my other comp right now, so I'll have to edit that in later.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Actuall, I'd say nobody does pick his character because of data.

You'd be wrong, then.

 

[GHNeko]

You'd be wrong, then.

This is only correct after the game's metagame/community has developed a bit + the data has been gathered.

On release or launch + before data reaping, then he's right.

 

[VietGeek]

I am hungry AND sleepy.

...the base of operations DOES have food servicing right?