Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[GHNeko]

Wouldnt lesser horizontal momentum make it harder to combo horizontally. Something we're shaping fair to be efficent at?

Wouldnt more momentum than what he has now be a better choice?

 

[Shell]

I thought Leaf explained it pretty well, but the idea is that by lowering his horizontal aerial acceleration, but increasing his running-to-jump momentum, we'll achieve a couple good things:

First, his ability to camp double fairs will be lessened, as he won't be able to retreat the second fair as well -- he'll have to commit more (this is further hurt as less damage will create less shield stun, becoming a little more dangerous).

However, by raising his running-to-jump momentum, he can still keep up in a horizontal combo performing SHDFs -- at least as well if not better than before, hopefully. Combined with the slightly higher F-gravity and the more vertical tip angle, he should get a very substantial boost to his combo game. Kinda scary, actually.

Granted, we're waiting on Plan SA to be complete to try this, and it's all theorycraft at this point, but if it works it could move him away from Fair camping and towards a more interesting game.

 

[GHNeko]

Oh. I thought you were talking about just horizontal momentum because I was just going to suggest that lmao.

 

[Demacrez]

Oh Marth, why do you have be this difficult to program? Couldn't you just be "BLARGH OMG IMZ EZ CUZ IMZ DAH DESTINIEZ!!!".

 

[timothyung]

Hmm...try more air speed, less acceleration? Then recovery won't be nerfed that much, and the goal can be achieved. But a problem is that if PSA would be used in B+ or not... SDHC cards compatibility.

 

[Demacrez]

I know! Everytime you hit someone with the sweet spot it'll have an explosion effect! :D

 

[Shaya]

Everytime I come here I see all these changes and go...

*sigh*...

Make his recovery worse?
Whilst removing his best gimping tool (dtilt) so he has to rely on his aerials more?
See the dramatic irony in the plot that is Marth Minus?
Who would want to JUMP off the stage to bair when you're going to die with one slip up.

I wish I had wings, a mask, and destiny, because marfs about to get ****ed over...

 

[GHNeko]

Everytime I come here I see all these changes and go...

*sigh*...

Make his recovery worse?
Whilst removing his best gimping tool (dtilt) so he has to rely on his aerials more?
See the dramatic irony in the plot that is Marth Minus?
Who would want to JUMP off the stage to bair when you're going to die with one slip up.

I wish I had wings, a mask, and destiny, because marfs about to get ****ed over...

I'm not completely for the up B nerf really.

Removing his best gimping tool? lolwut? Isnt that a strech? It'll be less effective, but completely removed? Come on now, that's not true.

jump off the stage to bair? lmao. Haven't you heard of ledge hopping? A smart player wouldnt use a move with such long length on the way down, unless it was from far up. Once again, come on now.

Dont you think you're being over dramatic, Shaya? :V

 

[VietGeek]

Dont you think you're being over dramatic, Shaya? :V

lmao.

LOOK AT WHAT CHARACTER THREAD THIS IS MAN!

 

[GHNeko]

:V

We aren't peach mains. We aren't Ness+ mains.

We've handled our dethroning with civility thus far. Let's not turn into peach/ness+ mains shall we?

 

[JCaesar]

If only NikoK and DarkPeach played Brawl+...

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Oh Marth, why do you have be this difficult to program? Couldn't you just be "BLARGH OMG IMZ EZ CUZ IMZ DAH DESTINIEZ!!!".

This ^.
I hate Marth at the moment.
Why was he made out of so much win back in Melee ?

 

[Demacrez]

-Reduce damage of Up+B
-If possible, slow F-Air
-Increase gravity
+Increase N-Air KB
+Small size increase of sweet spot
+B-Air has low angle spike at sweet spot
+Increase speed of D-Tilt


Just a few things I wanted to address. I know not all those will be added but it sounds close to how we want him. Just my two and a half cents.

 

[matt4300]

This ^.
I hate Marth at the moment.
Why was he made out of so much win back in Melee ?

Because he was the best char in the game? that will turn a char into "win"

 

[Shaya]

Sorry for waking you up Neko :O

Dtilt having it's angle aimed upwards would indicate to me that anyone DI'n up would not have major issues against surviving getting hit by it, especially if they have good aerial mobility or 5 jumps or destiny.
The interaction of using dtilt to hit them away but slightly upwards to then bair edge guard is quite a different dynamic, but definitely not as scary as just the presence of dtilt. Dtilt from the stage covered Marth's weakness of BELOW HIM, opening up bair to have the similar use gives Marth the weakness of below him. Marth's dtilt as a gimper was effective against vertical recoveries/those who require going below the stage. Being less effective against those who can recover high (very well complementing his weakness of not having 5 jumps or a huge double jump, and opening himself up to his below him weakness in the oncoming altercation). Changing this just makes the whole process more dangerous, not more favourable. The angles of each move are swapping, but it detracts from his ground game which had specific characters quite annoyed compared to MKs (big hint: Snake), who couldnt just punish a dtilt MK hits on Snake with SDI away to ftilt [in vBrawl].

Balance is definitely not an easy thing to do. But at least with the whole dtilt/bair thing, you're only changing the archetype of character design Marth can gimp ... 'easily' for the most part, worse. Giving Marth the bair only seems as a design quirk to make him more dangerous (yet I think the dtilt change makes him 'worse' by a larger degree). Coupling with a worsening recovery makes the whole change seem... facetious. Do these changes actually give Marth a more engaging game? Dtilt becoming a linker to grab COULD have its effects, but you could do something similar to another move (dash attack... jab... maybe even some variation of DB) to not detract away from his character qualities in ways I feel he doesn't need them.

(Sorry this argument has no real flow.. I'm a bit muddled)

From what I can gather, the bair will be very similar to MK's dair. Except we will now have a worse recovery to back that up. Joyous occasion!

 

[Demacrez]

I say we make ridiculous buffs and throw those into a build, see where that goes with the non-Marth players, and make well adjustments! XD

 

[GHNeko]

:V

Sorry for waking you up Neko :O

S'alright. <_<

Dtilt having it's angle aimed upwards would indicate to me that anyone DI'n up would not have major issues against surviving getting hit by it, especially if they have good aerial mobility or 5 jumps or destiny.

First of all, I think you're over-exaggerating the angle change of Marth's dtilt, which we havnt even decided on to even test in the first place. <_>

The interaction of using dtilt to hit them away but slightly upwards to then bair edge guard is quite a different dynamic, but definitely not as scary as just the presence of dtilt.

lolwut, we just wanted to raise the angle, not have the move hit UP. lmao.

Dtilt from the stage covered Marth's weakness of BELOW HIM, opening up bair to have the similar use gives Marth the weakness of below him.

Dtilt was used as a ledgeguard, an ledgetrap, a shield poke, and a shield pressure tool. Raising the angle detracks from 2 of these. One less than the other as well.

Marth's dtilt as a gimper was effective against vertical recoveries/those who require going below the stage. Being less effective against those who can recover high (very well complementing his weakness of not having 5 jumps or a huge double jump, and opening himself up to his below him weakness in the oncoming altercation).

And it's still going to work, just not as well. Once again, you're over-exaggerating a change we have even yet to crunch numbers for and test.

Changing this just makes the whole process more dangerous, not more favourable. The angles of each move are swapping, but it detracts from his ground game which had specific characters quite annoyed compared to MKs (big hint: Snake), who couldnt just punish a dtilt MK hits on Snake with SDI away to ftilt [in vBrawl].

It's a nerf for Dtilt to compensate for buff we are giving marth for us to test to help out Marth. Also, I think you mean ledge game, not ground game. :V

Balance is definitely not an easy thing to do. But at least with the whole dtilt/bair thing, you're only changing the archetype of character design Marth can gimp ... 'easily' for the most part, worse.

Not really. Far more could be done to change the archetype of Marth. Dtilt is still going to work the same, but simply less effective. Not completely different. The only complete overhaul is on bair and that's something to help his gimping game without being brain-dead easy to use. Besides, it's only a test that we have yet to try. lmao.

Giving Marth the bair only seems as a design quirk to make him more dangerous (yet I think the dtilt change makes him 'worse' by a larger degree).

Bair might seem like a design quirk, but the nerf to dtilt doesnt make him worse by a larger degree. ****, not even I can say that because we have yet to try this **** out.

Coupling with a worsening recovery makes the whole change seem... facetious.

I don't agree with the Dolphin Slash nerf because it makes his recovery worse.

Do these changes actually give Marth a more engaging game?

Only one way to find out. :V

Dtilt becoming a linker to grab COULD have its effects, but you could do something similar to another move (dash attack... jab... maybe even some variation of DB) to not detract away from his character qualities in ways I feel he doesn't need them.

DB already links to grabs. A damage buff to DB 1 for shield stun advantage could be done. Dtilt isnt being made to link into grabs. It's just being nerfed as compensation for buffs.

(Sorry this argument has no real flow.. I'm a bit muddled)

This arguement also reaks of over-reaction. :V

From what I can gather, the bair will be very similar to MK's dair. Except we will now have a worse recovery to back that up. Joyous occasion!

Lolwut. No it wont. wtf are you getting this from. MK Dair sends up and out. Bair will be made to semi spike and edgeguard. If we dont like it, we'll take it out and work on other things.

Stop being a Drama Queen. We love Marth just as much you. Calm down and approach this in a civil manner. Experience before you immediately knock it, as the most radical idea is bair and not even that is a very extreme change to Marth.

 

[Shaya]

Bit muddled because my recent trip to America gave me Swine Flu and I'm still sick, nothing to do with over-reaction . Even though the over reaction may have to do with the flu.... lololololol.

And MK's dair like doesn't send up at all, maybe the brawl+ changes did? :V

And what I meant by 'character archetypes'; was the types of characters Marth is able to gimp changes by making him use bair. His gimping becomes more effective against horizontal recoveries, but the effectiveness will highly depending on how much of a vertical distance he can cover (worser recoveries restricts this) and I'm not sure what you'll be doing with his ledge/double jump but those will effect him too (hence my destiny/5 jumps slur). Dtilt and a great uair pretty much universally covered all vertical recoveries for Marth, making him incredibly dangerous in this regard.

That paragraph didn't exactly tend to any side; it is quite a considerable buff to make bair good, but this will be heavily effected by his ability to recover (through his gravity, jump heights, AERIAL MOBILITY); yes the change of bair suddenly becomes a notable design change to Marth. Nerfing the dtilt so it isn't so farkawesome, whilst also reducing uair's kill ability (think I didn't notice?) is a complete flip of his abilities.

 

[GHNeko]

MK dair sends slightly up and out. Marth's bair wont completely reflect that.

Uair kill ability is being reduced because his uthrow is getting a buff with less base KB and growth AND less wind down. If his uair didn't get nerfed, uthrow to uair would be too much dont you think?

Stop making it seem like dtilt is going to be ruined. It's not going to be ruined. omg.

And the up B nerf is not set in stone either. Come on now.

His gravity/jump changes are being made in attempt to make a more offensive Marth and the change to aerial mobility in exchange for more aerial momentum is to reduce the effectiveness of fair camping and make him commit more to certain attacks.

This is not a complete flip of his ability, Queen of Marth Shaya. :V

 

[Demacrez]

MK dair sends slightly up and out. Marth's bair wont completely reflect that.

Uair kill ability is being reduced because his uthrow is getting a buff with less base KB and growth AND less wind down. If his uair didn't get nerfed, uthrow to uair would be too much dont you think?

Stop making it seem like dtilt is going to be ruined. It's not going to be ruined. omg.

And the up B nerf is not set in stone either. Come on now.

His gravity/jump changes are being made in attempt to make a more offensive Marth and the change to aerial mobility in exchange for more aerial momentum is to reduce the effectiveness of fair camping and make him commit more to certain attacks.

This is not a complete flip of his ability, Queen of Marth Shaya. :V

Gasp! I now have a name for a character!

 

[Shaya]

Do MK's throws still combo into nair, and is nair still vBrawl power?

And I didn't imply anything was specifically bad in that last post, stop overexagerating, missy .
I was listing points of things which I hoped were actually being considered within all these changes. Bair is a structural change that has numerous other variables that will impact it's effectiveness. The list mentioned things like recovery, momentum changes, gravity and jump changes; things that also alter the effectiveness of a character change you wish to implement. Is that being considered deary?

 

[GHNeko]

Do MK's throws still combo into nair, and is nair still vBrawl power?

And I didn't imply anything was specifically bad in that last post, stop overexagerating, missy .
I was listing points of things which I hoped were actually being considered within all these changes. Bair is a structural change that has numerous other variables that will impact it's effectiveness. The list mentioned things like recovery, momentum changes, gravity and jump changes; things that also alter the effectiveness of a character change you wish to implement. Is that being considered deary?

MK cant combo out of any of his throws. and Nair is still vbrawl power because he does need some kill moves you know. :V

And yes, all of these things are being taken into considering, but one should only rate them lightly until we can actually test them. For now, we theorycraft, and fine tune the list to what us Marth mains think is best.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

-Reduce damage of Up+B
-If possible, slow F-Air
-Increase gravity
+Increase N-Air KB
+Small size increase of sweet spot
+B-Air has low angle spike at sweet spot
+Increase speed of D-Tilt


Just a few things I wanted to address. I know not all those will be added but it sounds close to how we want him. Just my two and a half cents.

Well, I'd rather nerf something else than F-Air's speed. Seriously...
And why buffing N-air? It's near useless when it comes to smaller characters. For instance: Wario, Pikachu, METAKNIGHT, etc.

I don't know much about all this, but there's one thing I really like about all this...
Small size increase of sweetspot :D.

 

[timothyung]

You don't know how to use nair. Try practicing a bit, then the second hit can always hit a grounded opponent, usually tippered. Just nair when you are around the peak of his SH, nair, then fastfall after the first hit. Or you can fair>nair first hit, that hit can always hit grounded characters. And it's second hit tippered has quite a lot of KB, non tippered can combo, and it lasts quite long, and the range is as long as fair... it's very good, use it more

 

[GHNeko]

Marf mains need moar nair.

Spoiler

So they can be silky smooth like Prince Marf

:V

 

[PKNintendo]

If only NikoK and DarkPeach played Brawl+...

NikoK does play B+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS2Xw6O8B28&fmt=18

 

[RyuReiatsu]

You don't know how to use nair. Try practicing a bit, then the second hit can always hit a grounded opponent, usually tippered. Just nair when you are around the peak of his SH, nair, then fastfall after the first hit. Or you can fair>nair first hit, that hit can always hit grounded characters. And it's second hit tippered has quite a lot of KB, non tippered can combo, and it lasts quite long, and the range is as long as fair... it's very good, use it more

I know how to use it. What I've said was that it was near useless against small characters. There are always better options out there.
It's just plain stupid running at a small character full speed ahead, short jumping and doing nair. You've got better moves to use against 'em.

 

[Niko_K]

NikoK does play B+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS2Xw6O8B28&fmt=18

That was my second time playing XD. I'm totally **** now Ontario is supposed to be having a Brawl+ tournament soon hosted by DeLoRtEd1, watch out for it!

 

[timothyung]

I know how to use it. What I've said was that it was near useless against small characters. There are always better options out there.
It's just plain stupid running at a small character full speed ahead, short jumping and doing nair. You've got better moves to use against 'em.

No matter what, it's one of his best kill moves, even when versus small characters... and I meant you didn't use it at full potential

 

[RyuReiatsu]

No matter what, it's one of his best kill moves, even when versus small characters... and I meant you didn't use it at full potential

I used it mostly as a kill move against small characters.
But then again, does it really need a buff? Some other thing might call for it.

 

[GHNeko]

Damage on the untipped portion in order to give it more shield stun and make it less susceptable to shield grabbing which is one of the main reasons I dont approach with that move. :V

 

[Hostility]

I thought Leaf explained it pretty well, but the idea is that by lowering his horizontal aerial acceleration, but increasing his running-to-jump momentum, we'll achieve a couple good things:

First, his ability to camp double fairs will be lessened, as he won't be able to retreat the second fair as well -- he'll have to commit more (this is further hurt as less damage will create less shield stun, becoming a little more dangerous).

However, by raising his running-to-jump momentum, he can still keep up in a horizontal combo performing SHDFs -- at least as well if not better than before, hopefully. Combined with the slightly higher F-gravity and the more vertical tip angle, he should get a very substantial boost to his combo game. Kinda scary, actually.

Granted, we're waiting on Plan SA to be complete to try this, and it's all theorycraft at this point, but if it works it could move him away from Fair camping and towards a more interesting game.

Umm you do realize that there are gaps between the fair right? short hop double fair isn't like some invincible wall like you seem to think it is. In melee short hop double fair is faster than it is in brawl+ and even then it's not good to do a lot. What you call "fair camping" just seems to me like controlling space.

 

[Shaya]

Damage on the untipped portion in order to give it more shield stun and make it less susceptable to shield grabbing which is one of the main reasons I dont approach with that move. :V

Someone sounds like they dont know how to space

Q to the brawl+ people:
If Marth's dash attack was to have it's start up reduced, would this in turn allow him to do boost smashes/boost grabs?
What are the requirements to allow something like that, if known (specifically the boost grab)

I think in term's of vBrawl falco, who if he does a silenced laser on the ground that hits a shield; he actually has enough advantage to follow it up with a boost grab/smash.

Or if it's possible to have Marth's pivot grab come out in like 5/6 frames instead of 8 IIRC, that may have the same effect.

Having something similar to that with marth's fair/nair to then follow up with a high chance of success grab (if well timed/I'd reason it would be reasonaby technical) would increase his approaching options.

In other words, making shielding dangerous against a Marth will actually create a better dynamic where he can approach.

Also about fair,
is it possible to have individual frames have different angle properties? like if one is it hit with frame 4, they could be sent up reasonably sharply compared to the hits afterwards? (Like I know the last frame hit tippered actually hits backwards at a semi spike somehow.. lol)

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Boost Grabbing? Such things exists o_o? *should lurk a bit more*
The idea of having his fair having different angles properties depending on the frames it hits could be quite special. If it is possible, we should give it a try.

If Double Fair's too hard to do consistently with the new physics we're going to implement... How about actually speeding up the attack itself? If it doesn't last as long as it does at the moment, we could perform it a second time earlier. Plus that will teach newbies to use something other than only Fair because they will most likely hit too early seeing as how the attack wouldn't last as long?

Then again, I'm not very logical. It might even boost it...
If what I'm saying is stupid, just ignore this post. I'm tired.

 

[Zodac]

i was saying make fair hit higher for weeks and got flamed and then this guy posts

"You guys really should make Fair angle higher."

and every1 is liek, yeah good idea bro you are a genuis lets discuss it for the next 50 posts

*facepalm*

 

[VietGeek]

Zodac, it's because you were like: "Guys in Brawl+ 3.3" ...

which is the SOLE reason we gave you sh*t about it...cuz that was bull****. It had a 40 degree angle on it in 3.3, which was LOWER than 4.0+'s 50 degrees.

Don't leave important stuff out to try to gain sympathy. <_<

 

[GHNeko]

Someone sounds like they dont know how to space

I know how to space okay. I'm just saying that untipped nair doesnt have enough shield stun and opens up an opportunity to get sheild grabbed. The tipper size vs untipper size, the chances of getting shield grabbed are high enough to make me go, "Naaah. There's a better option."

You know. The rewards dont look like they outweigh the risk.

 

[The Cape]

Got some Marth changes I would like you all to try:

.GCT and changelist included in the .rar file. Please dont do the moronic thing and just read the change list and then complain, try the character.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HYCD6LQQ
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?lm5yunlwoz1

Media Fire link added by request.


.txt added by request:
http://www.pastebin.org/6005


Every change made was to Marth from Brawl+ scratch (so non of the other changes are in operations)


Notes:
Some of Marth's more used tips are a bit bigger and more useful, but the non tips are a bit less useful. This will equate to more need for spacing with Marth and definetly bring back some of his vvariable combo/gimp game.

 

[timothyung]

Stop using megaupload will you >.>?
Use mediafire.
Testing it now. I'll post my impressions here later.

 

[The Cape]

Thoughts on the set so far:
Bit more KBG on Uair
SideB damage nerfs back in