Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[Dark Sonic]

Has anyone ever thought of just returning Marth's fair to melee status? (slightly larger sweetspot, tip sending up and slightly behind, blade sending at current angle <_<) As I recall, Marth was a GOD at comboing because the tip and blade on his fair functioned so differently, allowing him to force opponents up while close to the ground while still being able to drag them down with him in the air.

Thoughts?

 

[GHNeko]

Me and leaf are already discussing that.

Tipped fair sending behind might be a bit much. :V

 

[leafgreen386]

So a combo move shouldnt combo? People need to learn how to deal with things.

Well, in melee, if you SDI'd the first three hits toward marth, you could pretty much always escape the fourth. Dark Sonic uses sideB all the time against me in melee, so I'm pretty familiar with the melee incarnation, which was far from broken.

Anyway, I've been playing more with marth, and I've determined that his nair is absolutely amazing and I cannot figure out why I don't see more people using it. Are you too busy playing defensively to notice that it combos floaties across fd at low percents with the hilt and is one of his best killers when tipped? It's great off a tipped fair or uair at low percents, a poorly DI'd fthrow, or as a techchase from a dthrow.

So my new list of marth changes after talking with neko (new changes in bold):
+ Reduce uthrow endlag and slightly lower growth and base
+ Raise dsmash base slightly
+ Fair tip +5 degrees and fair nontip -5 degrees (makes them 55 and 35 degrees, respectively)
+ Dthrow lower angle
+ Bair lower angle
- Bair lower kb
- Less damage on utilt (compensate kb)
- Less damage on nair (compensate kb)
- Dtilt slightly higher angle and slightly less kb
- Lower uair tip growth
- Counter comes out frame 6 or 7 instead of frame 4
- Remove invinc from frames 1-4 of upB

Dropped changes:
+ Increase fair damage (compensate kb)
+ Increase dtilt damage (compensate kb)
- Slightly more base on utilt

I wanted to give him a +1 frame advantage on dtilt against shields, to encourage more shield pressure, but after these other changes, that might be a bit much. Also, I'm fairly uncertain about the fair change, still, since the idea here is to make a more offensive marth, more focused on grabbing and such, rather than encourage more fair spam.

What most of these changes will do should be fairly obvious. The only one you might be wondering "why?" on is the dthrow change. The dthrow change is to prevent people from getting out of a forced tech, as it's currently possible to escape hitstun before landing, if you weren't aware.

edit: And DS, get on the irc more often, will ya?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Me and leaf are already discussing that.

Tipped fair sending behind might be a bit much. :V

Not behind, up and behind (like 95 degrees). Straight up would work fine too though <_<.

Don't forget this is with NO DI (what I found most odd is that DIing towards Marth has almost no effect in melee, despite the defualt angle being pretty much straight up.)

Well, in melee, if you SDI'd the first three hits toward marth, you could pretty much always escape the fourth. Dark Sonic uses sideB all the time against me in melee, so I'm pretty familiar with the melee incarnation, which was far from broken.

4th hit doesn't connect in the first place in melee <_<. You mean the third hit right?

+ Fair tip +5 degrees and fair nontip -5 degrees (makes them 55 and 35 degrees, respectively)
+ Dthrow lower angle

Why don't you just make the tip send straight up? Don't forget that the opponent will be DIing away from Marth so 55 degrees on a tipped fair...is not going to combo into anything. Basically, we want the "solution" for a tipped fair to be to DI towards Marth and take another attack...that's not another fair (probably a uair or nair) to end the combo early. This would be in stark contrast to the non tip, which you'd want to DI away (unless you want to take more fairs). These kinds of DI mixups would give Marth all the combo power he needs (considering the opponent is still in a bad position regardless, they're just a lot worse of if they DI poorly).

 

[Magus420]

The f-air tip in Melee is about 70°. If you factor in the enhanced DI when hit while in the air in Brawl, something around 75-78 or so would likely be comparable when DI'd away.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, that's Magus being amazing again <_<.

I wish I could do that

 

[GHNeko]

Wouldnt the tip need less (B?)KB(G?) to be potent with an angle like that?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wouldnt the tip need less (B?)KB(G?) to be potent with an angle like that?

Yeah...but it would also become much more epic.

 

[GHNeko]

Much more epic at the cost of dozens of BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWs

 

[BRLNK88]

Honest to god, I only care about that dair sweetspot. Spiking with LINK should NOT be easier than spiking with Marth, however much Link needs that spike.
So often I venture off the stage with Marth, and hit with the upper body of the blade instead of the tip, and then I'm just kinda hanging out there like a lame duck.
I'm not saying make it exactly like the Melee one, but make it better at least.

 

[GHNeko]

It's fine as it is. Just use the back side of Dair as its easier to sweetspot than the front.

Also, leaf, that counter nerf makes no sense. <_>

You're giving him a worse version of Ike's counter. <_<

 

[timothyung]

Marth's counter already has a very punishable ending lag, and the duration isn't that long either. Don't nerf it, or at least not the start up.
And yeah nair is a really good move.
But now it's 5 buffs and 7 nerfs. Drop the counter nerf, add in the DS full power, then it's 6 buffs and nerfs

So the list will look like this:
+ Reduce uthrow endlag and slightly lower growth and base
+ Raise dsmash base slightly
+ Fair tip +5 degrees and fair nontip -5 degrees (makes them 55 and 35 degrees, respectively)
+ Dthrow lower angle
+ UpB original power
+ Bair lower angle
- Bair lower kb
- Less damage on utilt (compensate kb)
- Less damage on nair (compensate kb)
- Dtilt slightly higher angle and slightly less kb
- Lower uair tip growth
- Remove invinc from frames 1-4 of upB

Dropped:
- Counter comes out frame 6 or 7 instead of frame 4

 

[GHNeko]

lmao. You're forgetting about the potency of the buffs. The Bair changes are pretty much a complete rework. Those two changes you see dont summarize what I want to do with the move 100%.

I still dont think counter needs to be nerfed considering it's way worse at string relief in every possible way.

 

[timothyung]

lmao. You're forgetting about the potency of the buffs. The Bair changes are pretty much a complete rework. Those two changes you see dont summarize what I want to do with the move 100%.

I still dont think counter needs to be nerfed considering it's way worse at string relief in every possible way.

The number doesn't really matter...just updating the change list, and somehow the buffs and nerfs are the same in number. I agree that we shouldn't nerf his counter though.

 

[GHNeko]

lmao, what is up with the thread title. xD

 

[VietGeek]

Hmm, I'm wondering.

Would raising the angle of Fthrow just slightly be good as well? To something like 55-65?

Also, yeah Counter is by far one of the worst moves in Marth's arsenal. If you nerf it, it won't dent Marth's game at all, but invoke a sort of "WTF?" response when someone does use it. =V

@Neko - That'll attract attention. =)

 

[GHNeko]

Fthrow is fine as it is. It's the most versitile throw that Marth has at the moment. He always has an option after an fthrow, despite DI and percents. I <3 it.

 

[Demacrez]

I like my destiny and I do like victories. So, if we have an epic win... does that mean EPIC DESTINIEZ?!

 

[GHNeko]

Demacrez? You're in SPRING texas?

...Did you go to Whobo? I might of played you if you were into Brawl+ back then. >_>

BL88, You, and Me, need to get together for a B+ smashfest.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

wait why are u removing the invincibility frames on 1-4 of DS? Isn't that what made the move useful in the first place? D:

I mean now it wouldn't be able to be used to get out of combos and stuff, right? D:

 

[GHNeko]

Because parts of WBR think that Marth shouldn't have invicibility from start to hit.

Making it invicible on hit pretty much makes it a worse version of Melee dolphin Slash ie without the power and backwards hit.

Personally, I think it the opponent's fault for being too greedy against a Marth when on the offensive. If your attacking a Marth and you dont think your next move will hit before hitstun ends, dont take the chance. If you do, and fail, you know for next time.

You only get a dolphin Slash to the face when you're being aggressive with strings or you're trying to jab > something.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ok, first off, I love multiquote.

Second off... the quotes.

4th hit doesn't connect in the first place in melee <_<. You mean the third hit right?

Er... did I really say "fourth?" I meant "third." >_>

Why don't you just make the tip send straight up? Don't forget that the opponent will be DIing away from Marth so 55 degrees on a tipped fair...is not going to combo into anything. Basically, we want the "solution" for a tipped fair to be to DI towards Marth and take another attack...that's not another fair (probably a uair or nair) to end the combo early. This would be in stark contrast to the non tip, which you'd want to DI away (unless you want to take more fairs). These kinds of DI mixups would give Marth all the combo power he needs (considering the opponent is still in a bad position regardless, they're just a lot worse of if they DI poorly).

I'd like it if his fair wasn't too good, but you are right about only raising it 5 degrees not doing much. I actually suggested 60 but neko wanted to try lower values first.

The f-air tip in Melee is about 70°. If you factor in the enhanced DI when hit while in the air in Brawl, something around 75-78 or so would likely be comparable when DI'd away.

Well, melee also had more gravity, so I think trying 70 first would be a better place to start.

Honest to god, I only care about that dair sweetspot. Spiking with LINK should NOT be easier than spiking with Marth, however much Link needs that spike.
So often I venture off the stage with Marth, and hit with the upper body of the blade instead of the tip, and then I'm just kinda hanging out there like a lame duck.
I'm not saying make it exactly like the Melee one, but make it better at least.

Uh... lrn2tip?

It's fine as it is. Just use the back side of Dair as its easier to sweetspot than the front.

Also, leaf, that counter nerf makes no sense. <_>

You're giving him a worse version of Ike's counter. <_<

K. You're probably right. It wouldn't have too big of an effect and it doesn't need to happen.

Marth's counter already has a very punishable ending lag, and the duration isn't that long either. Don't nerf it, or at least not the start up.
And yeah nair is a really good move.
But now it's 5 buffs and 7 nerfs. Drop the counter nerf, add in the DS full power, then it's 6 buffs and nerfs

So the list will look like this:
+ Reduce uthrow endlag and slightly lower growth and base
+ Raise dsmash base slightly
+ Fair tip +5 degrees and fair nontip -5 degrees (makes them 55 and 35 degrees, respectively)
+ Dthrow lower angle
+ UpB original power
+ Bair lower angle
- Bair lower kb
- Less damage on utilt (compensate kb)
- Less damage on nair (compensate kb)
- Dtilt slightly higher angle and slightly less kb
- Lower uair tip growth
- Remove invinc from frames 1-4 of upB

Dropped:
- Counter comes out frame 6 or 7 instead of frame 4

Although neko already mentioned it, having an equal number of buffs and nerfs means nothing. What matters is the quality of the buffs and nerfs.

lmao, what is up with the thread title. xD

Agreed... lol

Hmm, I'm wondering.

Would raising the angle of Fthrow just slightly be good as well? To something like 55-65?

Also, yeah Counter is by far one of the worst moves in Marth's arsenal. If you nerf it, it won't dent Marth's game at all, but invoke a sort of "WTF?" response when someone does use it. =V

@Neko - That'll attract attention. =)

I mentioned maybe raising fthrow by about 5 degrees, but it's probably fine as is.

wait why are u removing the invincibility frames on 1-4 of DS? Isn't that what made the move useful in the first place? D:

I mean now it wouldn't be able to be used to get out of combos and stuff, right? D:

Now you're getting it!

 

[GHNeko]

Fthrow needs not to be changed. It's ****.

 

[Demacrez]

Demacrez? You're in SPRING texas?

...Did you go to Whobo? I might of played you if you were into Brawl+ back then. >_>

BL88, You, and Me, need to get together for a B+ smashfest.

Who-what? I just recently moved back and I never knew there were Brawl+ tournaments around here.

 

[grim mouser]

X_X I need to play some Melee again. I don't remember the f-air angles anymore.

 

[Demacrez]

Is it possible to make Marth's Shield Breaker a better recovery move? Like reduce the charge time (mostly in the air) to make it more usable.

 

[leafgreen386]

Is it possible to make Marth's Shield Breaker a better recovery move? Like reduce the charge time (mostly in the air) to make it more usable.

Is it possible? Very. Would we do it? Not a chance. One of marth's critical weaknesses right now is his recovery, and we're not changing that.

 

[Demacrez]

Alright, sounds just. Unfortunately, no matter how much awesome I'm tellin' my cousin Marth is and Brawl+, he's completely content with vBrawl because he's broken. His only complaint? He doesn't do enough damage....

 

[BRLNK88]

Demacrez? You're in SPRING texas?

...Did you go to Whobo? I might of played you if you were into Brawl+ back then. >_>

BL88, You, and Me, need to get together for a B+ smashfest.

Sounds good to me, Spring isn't too far from Houston, and I live on the northeast side.
Where exactly do you live? And I'll be home alone from August 8th to the 20th-ish, I can do whatever I want.

Uh... lrn2tip?

In Melee it was EASY to tip, thats my point. Make it easier to tip. But I don't wanna play Melee, cuz Falcon is annoying (my best friend mains falcon and uses me as a punching bag, but I can take him in Brawl/+).

 

[leafgreen386]

The new draft for the marth revamp after talking with DS a bit looks something like this:

+ Fair tip raised to 70 angle, nontip dropped to 35
+ Bair lower angle (part of neko's edit)
+ Uthrow less lag, less kb
+ Dthrow lower angle (maybe more damage)
+ Bthrow less endlag, higher angle, and more kb
+ Dsmash more base
+ UpB hitbox rework (see below)
- Fair tip 9 damage, nontip 7 damage
- Bair lower kb (part of neko's edit)
- Remove upB invinc frames 1-4
- Lower uair tip growth
+/- Dtilt less kb, higher angle
+/- Physics modifications:
: Lower weight
: Higher fgrav
: Less horizontal air acceleration
: More momentum from a run

The fair change is to promote using it to combo, but not to camp. Lower damage not only means that camping fairs is less effective due to a lower damage output, but it also means it won't be nearly as safe when rising, and can only be used safely when ff'd (due to shieldstun being based on damage). The physics modifications also work toward this, making it harder for him to weave in and out, while still allowing him an approach game due to the momentum and faster jumps due to more fgrav. The other purpose of the physics modifications is to make him get combo'd slightly easier, without gaining extra resistance to KOs off the top.

The bair rework neko has planned turns bair into more of a gimp move due to the angle change, without being ridiculously good for killing with the lower kb. The tip would be set to a 30 degree angle with less kb, and the blade would be set to something higher (around 40 or 45 degrees) with also reduced kb.

Uthrow should be well known why it's there by now. It makes it into a combo throw, as opposed to the... string throw it is right now. If left alone, uthrow -> uair would become a combo at killing percents, so the uair tip will be nerfed in growth to prevent it from killing as well.

Dthrow lower angle makes it better for techchasing, as currently it's possible to airdodge out instead of being forced to tech, where they should be forced to tech at any reasonable percent. With three other throws that can work as a combo throw, it might be worthwhile raising the damage slightly (I'm thinking 5 -> 7).

Bthrow adds even more variety to his throw game. It would be another mixup option - if DI'd away, it would set up for a tipped bair. If DI'd up, would lead into uair.

His fthrow wasn't mentioned as we agreed it was fine as is. I figured I'd mention it here as I was talking about all his other throws. lol

Dsmash won't have a huge effect on his game. Just make it a little better for killing and fix the stupid risk/reward on this move. Not gonna bother rehashing it all when I've already said it:

I personally think his dsmash is a bit underpowered right now for the risk it entails (hits frame 6 and 21, ends 64, while it has less base and only very slightly more growth than fsmash, and is harder to space on top of that... this thing can be punished by a half-charged smash if you screw up), so I might want to see it get a little extra base to even out the risk/reward (currently, it has a compound growth (damage*growth) of 1360 and a base of 50, while fsmash has a compound growth of 1330 and base of 80, so I'd like to bring it up to 75 base).

Now, the upb hitbox rework. We're doing this for a couple of reasons. First off, we're removing a major use of it onstage by removing the invincibility - breaking strings, and we're also somehow making his recovery worse due to the physics modifications (less horizontal air acceleration and more grav = much tougher to recover effectively). So we're giving it use as an attack. The strong hitbox will be returned to its previous power, slightly moved behind him and enlarged. The weak hitboxes will be given slightly more kb and possibly a lower angle, to facilitate their use in edgeguarding.

The dtilt change is both a buff and a nerf. It will make it much less effective as an edgeguard option (forcing marth to rely more on his aerials for edgeguarding), but it will enable it to combo into a grab more reliably at low percents (it does this already if you hilt it, actually).

I think I've covered the reasoning for everything so far somewhere in there.

 

[GHNeko]

Alright, sounds just. Unfortunately, no matter how much awesome I'm tellin' my cousin Marth is and Brawl+, he's completely content with vBrawl because he's broken. His only complaint? He doesn't do enough damage....

tell him to lrn2combo.

Demacrez, Whobo was a huge Smash tourney hosted by Xyro and Dugfinn. Pretty much a nationwide/regional tourney. I was there for all 3 days, and had a steady, dedicated Brawl+ setup and played against so many plussers, and this was back in 3.3 or earlier.

 

[Demacrez]

Sounds good. This build sounds close to how I play Marth (probably mostly everyone as well XD). Can't wait to see if this goes through.

Edit: agh, ninja'd. :'(

tell him to lrn2combo.

Demacrez, Whobo was a huge Smash tourney hosted by Xyro and Dugfinn. Pretty much a nationwide/regional tourney. I was there for all 3 days, and had a steady, dedicated Brawl+ setup and played against so many plussers, and this was back in 3.3 or earlier.

He pretty much has made up his mind thinking vBrawl is far superior to Brawl+. Somehow, the fun factor was denied access to the fuzzy feeling center.

That sounds like a place I WILL go to. Must, find, next, tourny. *o*

 

[GHNeko]

Really, I dont want to change the up B that drastically. I would settle on a middle ground.

Invincible 2-4, hit on 5, with a small KB boost. Reduce the sweetspot if you have to. :V

Also, Whobo was mostly Brawl. I just had Brawl+ for friendlies lmao. I am going to Whobo 2 next year. April 9-11th IIRC. It's in spring, TX.

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=5806

Ill have B+ set up there and Ill hopefully be good enough for MMs. lmao.

 

[grim mouser]

Marth's recovery would be nerfed? <_<

 

[Dark Sonic]

We're making him faster on the stage (faster fall speed with compensated jumps), but that same buff will make him fall faster OFF the stage. Thus the recovery is nerfed <_<.

 

[GHNeko]

And with a DS with no invicibility on frame 1-4, that makes his recovery even worse because he'll have a stupid hard time getting back on the stage, what with all the characters that can FLY and MULTIJUMP and GLIDE and ROCKETBOOST and SPRING and AUTOTETHER and just plain GIMP LIKE HELL with PROJECTILES and DISJOINTED MOVES.

Sure you can DS them as they try to gimp you, but a player that knows how to gimp marth would only want to trade blows in the air , DI up and prepare to stage tech, all while pushing Marth away from the stage, lmao.

 

[VietGeek]

At the end of the day, we all learn something...

Viet needs characters that can fly. =V

 

[GHNeko]

Pick up MK Minus. :V

He's a better version of Marth as of current anyways.

 

[Magus420]

I still say ~70° on the untipped b-air could allow for some really interesting stuff =/

 

[timothyung]

I just want a faster fast fall speed..higher fgrav will make him being comboed easier, and also a worse recovery. I don't want the grav to be increased a lot...just a bit at most. And about the horizontal air acceleration. If you nerf it too much, it will ruin Marth...and even if you touch it by a little, Marth will feel a lot different. I don't support that change.
Also try GPDP's grav value:
11AB54D0 1245A460

from http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7907282&postcount=5881