Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[VietGeek]

Zodac needs to stop playing 3.3 where fair sent at like special 20 (rofl Sakurai must've had a grand time at age 20) and with opponents who only want to DIE incorrectly.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Zodac needs to stop playing 3.3 where fair sent at like special 20 (rofl Sakurai must've had a grand time at age 20) and with opponents who only want to DIE incorrectly.

True that.

So anyways, Zodac.
For the love of god, would you stop spamming totally random things?

Btw-

Viet, did you consider GHNeko's suggestions? 'Cause they really were awesome in my opinion.

 

[VietGeek]

I like his suggestions, but now it's a matter of what to do with Marth.

As he is now, he's top 10. He seems a little boring to play...although maybe that's because I experienced Melee Marth. A character of his class (lolpun) needs trade-offs (lolherewego) to get something such as a deeper combo game (you know one that's less dependent on your opponent failing to tech).

So what would we nerf? All his tools are so sexy. Dancing Blade is borderline dead and I doubt anyone of us want to try to fix the overnerf (I would but I suck too much at math and never get the time to ask rofl), Dolphin Slash has mixed opinions on it, all his aerials are sexy, dtilt is sexy, his smashes are sexy, his throws are pretty good...

what's there to trade without making him feel "incomplete?" Would any of those "buffs" overcome a nerf to the core of his game? While DS/DB/dtilt are known to help Marth be gay camper, they're also tools to aid in his combo game...

it's a matter of finding what doesn't matter and what does...what is the priority when it comes to changing an already stellar character...

so if you want something, you need to decide what needs to go, but what needs to be upheld so Marth's offensive style still feels solid.

Anyways, I'm ranting but yeah...if we could make a way for Marth to want to be offensive more often that'd be cool. You know...make him king once more.

:V

 

[GHNeko]

Stop with your Fire Emblem puns. They're making my RPGbone tickle.

So, after playing 7.10 for a few hours on wifail today.

I've come to this single conclusion about Marth.

GOD I WISH BAIR HAD A LOWER ANGLE.

If any of you could of seen how many ledgehopped bair's I pulled off to edgeguard, you would agree with me.

It just screams proper edgeguard. I say proper because a move that sends UP and AWAY should not be called an edgeguard move because it helps you opponent recover with properly DI. I couldnt kill peach until 140%+ with a tipped bair on the ledge of smashville. >_>

But everything else about the move is like, "USE ME TO EDGEGUARD."

The range, the frame duration, the hitbox size, hell even the fact that bair turns marth around makes it seem like an edgeguard move because its like, "YOU **** UP THE SPACING AND YOU CANT DO IT AGAIN BECAUSE YOU'LL BE TURNED AROUND MWHAHAHAHA."

The move even has the range to **** the spacies out of their illusions.

What I wouldnt give to give Bair a lower angle. ;__;

 

[VietGeek]

Yes...what would you give for that Neko? Because it seems you really feel like the move should be promoted from its current iteration.

:V

 

[GHNeko]

Damage reduction with increased KB on Utilt and Dtilt. Maybe Nair too. V:

 

[RyuReiatsu]

It's really not possible to have a good double f-air or F-air to U-air with a lower shorthop. Right?
He feels so floaty, that sucks.

 

[GHNeko]

It's possible with a lower SH, but the timing is stricter, making it less reliable until mastered and making Marth a ****tier character in wifi. :V

That and SH DB 1 tactics like SH DB 1 > FF Fair/Nair/Uair/Dair, SH DB 1 Stalling Tactics, SHDB1 > DJ SHDB1 > FF Fair/Nair/Uair/Dair, and more, would effectively be made near-futile or just useless in competitive practice. At least in theory. V:

SH Rising Fair > Uair > Utilt could become inconsistant as well. Who knows.

What I do know is that Bair really really could use a lower angle with reduced KB.

 

[BRLNK88]

Marth is just fairly easy to pick-up now. Doesn't matter who you main, you can be OK with Marth, he's that good.
And he's my number two choice against those annoying Sheiks (TL is my number one, but I main him).

 

[GHNeko]

....Dude. You live in Texas?

WE MUST PLUS TOGETHER.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Marth is just fairly easy to pick-up now. Doesn't matter who you main, you can be OK with Marth, he's that good.
And he's my number two choice against those annoying Sheiks (TL is my number one, but I main him).

Yeah, I know that.
But thing is... He's boring as ****.
Then again, you're exaggerating in my opinion. Marth's overrated.

 

[GHNeko]

Best way to play Marth is gay as **** imo. Camping fairs alll day. He doesnt have the tools to be interesting. :V

 

[VietGeek]

Neko you're not good at hyping Project Sexually Interesting (PSI). =V

 

[BRLNK88]

....Dude. You live in Texas?

WE MUST PLUS TOGETHER.

yup, I do. What version do you have? I think I have 4.1
I still haven't really settled on a main. TL's my main in vBrawl, but he's just the character I have the most experience with, not necessarily my best.
Kind of a toss-up between Kirby, Marth, Wolf, Ike and Link.
I've also been experimenting with ZSS (who's now naked on my Wii, lulz).

 

[GHNeko]

Neko you're not good at hyping Project Sexually Interesting (PSI). =V

Because I'd rather it be more organized and done in live time.

yup, I do. What version do you have? I think I have 4.1
I still haven't really settled on a main. TL's my main in vBrawl, but he's just the character I have the most experience with, not necessarily my best.
Kind of a toss-up between Kirby, Marth, Wolf, Ike and Link.
I've also been experimenting with ZSS (who's now naked on my Wii, lulz).

I have 4.2 nightlies and 4.2 Backroom betas. :V

I dont play offiicials for more than a week. lmao.

 

[VietGeek]

GHNeko, doing it turn-based is better. God, don't you play Fire Emblem?

TURN BASED 4EVER

 

[VietGeek]

Marth+ P.S.I

k, double post with seriousness.

Brawl+ is in its final stages of completion. Veril thinks that we can make Marth more offensive-oriented as a character (not by player choice). Basically, making Marth have a moveset based around offense, so he can flow gracefully into ****.

While this doesn't mean Ken Combos all day, it does mean that Neko, Veril, and I would like to discuss with all Marth+ players (including big names like ChaosKnight, teh_spamerer, and meepxzero [did I even name drop their names correctly lmao]) on what direction Marth should take.

Naturally a buff towards offense means compensation in other areas. This discussion would not only cover what you'd like see done, but what you feel Marth can do without.

We already have some ideas for buffs, but making them more concrete would be great. Instead of saying: "let's make bair go more horizontal," specify the angle, if there should be any difference in flubbed and tipped hits, etc.

for ex:

Flubbed
110B551E 02169033
09672002 00460000
FFFFFFFFF 3F800000

9 dmg from 11, KBG 103 from 85, BKB 32 from 30 (all changes thus far are to compensate for dmg)

Angle 70 from special 20.

Tipped
110E5A1E 02169033
0C692002 003C0000
FFFFFFFFF 3F800000

14 dmg to 12, KBG 105 from 90, BKB 32 from 30 (compensation again)

Angle 60 from special 20

Make suggestion almost as specific as that. As for coding it, you really don't need to since hitbox mod is pretty **** easy compared to most of these whackass codes.

I would then say: "hey guys try it out see if it's not totally crazy w/e."

This one is probably crazy since I just compensated knockbacks to scale with damage (thus it'll hit just as hard as old bair eventually) but with those crazy angles I kinda made up.

If you want try it though, because I haven't. =P

Veril probably has coded some things too. But yeah, we're doing the whole "ideas > popular idea > executed > test to see if it's not stupid > find a way to compensate for buff > compensate > ??? > watch people not like Marth > profit" concept.

 

[Bube_Marth]

First of all, Hello, I am new in this forums.

I am playing Smash Bros since Smash Bros 64 was out until today, currently I am playing Brawl+ of course.

Well, completely independent to your posts I would like to tell you my opinion about the latest Marth (I guess this should be V4.2 now).

In Brawl+ 4.0, I have to say he was a bit over the top, because his forward B dealed almost 20% is almost every situation. Opponents were killed by it with low percentage like 75-90%.
That was too much.

In Brawl+ 4.1, The damage of forward air and up air got debuffed but some more knockback was added for these attacks. Everything okay so far, he was dealing really much damage for his rapidness. The forward B Combos got debuffed, and thats okay because it dealed to much damage and the Knockback was too hard.
There are just 2 unnecessary things in my opinion.
1st: The up tilt frame rate was increased (x1,5). I think x1,2 or maximum x1,3 would be enough for that.
2nd: His Up B got debuffed too **** badly. (Damage from 13% down on 10% and Knockback was debuffed too much. If your opponent uses DI, it is so hard to kill him with up B now, Samus and Lucario survived a 210% Up B some times.
You ask why is Up B so important? Well, it is not really important but I think every character should be flexible, and Marth is killing his opponents now only with his F-Smash and some times with his down air. He can kill in other ways, but only with very high percantage.

In Brawl+ 4.2, His Up B damage got buffed back to 13 now, that was necessary in my opinion, but were is the knockback? I dont say it should be like in vBrawl but a bit stronger would be okay, so the Up B will turn into a kill move again oô.

Marth haters may say whatever they want, Marth got debuffed to much, in my opinion.




BubeMarth

 

[Demacrez]

Well, seeing as this is for Brawl+ and the 4.1 build is the tournament official, it's kinda pointless to talk about it here.

4.2 is the night build so talking about it here would make more sense.

In Brawl+ 4.2, His Up B damage got buffednerfed back to 13 now, that was necessary in my opinion, but were is the knockback? I dont say it should be like in vBrawl but a bit stronger would be okay, so the Up B will turn into a kill move again oô.

Marth haters may say whatever they want, Marth got debuffednerfed to much, in my opinion.

His Up-B was ridiculous in vBrawl and nerfing it was a core essential I believe. It no longer KO's at low precentages or makes ridicules KB. It's a really fast attack that is hard to shield against so I can see why it's nerfed.

Marth's game does need a buffing though. I say make the sweet spot a tad bigger, giving his defense game still good but making a better offense game. His F-air is pretty good and combo racker (Ivy was my ***** from 0 to death). B-air is still needing to be desirable but I don't know what to change (Maybe give a low angle buff spike; ie: it knocks them low when hit with the tip).

I STILL WANT MAH SPIKE IN THE THIRD STRIKE OF THE LOW DANCING BLADE!!!!!!

 

[BRLNK88]

I agree about the sweetspots, especially on dair. I have a harder time spiking with Marth than any other character, whereas in Melee it was almost the opposite.

 

[Yingyay]

Melee's hitbox was a tad too big if you ask me. You barley had to try and Marth had one of the strongest spikes in the game.

 

[VietGeek]

Imo a dair buff wouldn't even help him too much anyway, it's like the 19th strongest meteor in the game IIRC, and meteor canceling is very lenient in this game.

Besides if we made it big as Melee's some of the hitbox wouldn't even appear with the animation.

IDK if you guys really understood what I was getting at. Unless you guys feel like Marth plays perfectly at the moment.

But that's okay I guess?

 

[GHNeko]

I'd rather lower his damage out put on other moves to make room for more functional moves. .__.

Bair with a lower angle, Fair with better control over opponent, Low angle on Dtilt, increase of KBG on ftilt, faster jab, lower KB on uthrow, increased cool down on dsmash, increase the hitbox size on marth's feet during usmash.

Thoughts guys?

 

[leafgreen386]

VietGeek: "Project Sexually Interesting" is certainly... well, interesting. Although unfortunately, I think the most straightforward and easiest way to buff his offense is to simply buff the tools he already has.

Fair - more damage (compensate kb)
Dtilt - more damage (compensate kb)
Uthrow - less endlag

Nothing more than that needs to be buffed, although what to take away is a very difficult matter, which I will get into later. But why did I pick these three buffs in particular? Easy. Shield pressure. Both shield damage and shieldstun are based on the damage a move deals, so by buffing the damage on his fair and dtilt, you enhance his ability to punish the opponent for shielding. The obvious thing to do after landing a high shieldstun move is to either continue the shield pressure or try to get a grab in, which is where the uthrow buff comes in. It allows him to get consistent damage off of a grab in the form of uthrow -> usmash or utilt (at low percents) and uthrow -> uair (at high percents). Since his fair and dtilt would be superb shield pressure tools, he would be encouraged to approach more often to get that grab in for the uthrow combos.

Of course, this wouldn't do anything for making him a more interesting character, as he would still be focused on using a very small portion of his moveset, but using it very well. Especially when you consider he would have to be somehow nerfed in order to keep him balanced.

What can you nerf about marth, though? Recovery... combo ability... combo relief... punishability... kill moves...

Well, his recovery is already gutter trash. The float on his upB at the end of it makes him very susceptible to edgeguarding, and he doesn't have a very good horizontal recovery, either. I feel like his recovery is one of his major cons that keep him more or less balanced. Not really much you can do here, though.

We would be buffing his combo ability off of uthrow with this, so with the new marth, it would be kind of asinine to take away from his combo ability, especially when he doesn't even have that many reliable combos to begin with. You could give his utilt slightly more base so it doesn't combo into itself as much at low percents, but I don't think we should be taking away too much from this area of marth, as it defeats the purpose of making him more offense oriented.

Combo relief has actually already been nerfed with the upB change, but I think it would be fair to nerf it further. It's fine for his upB to whack them away, but in exchange, it shouldn't have full invincibility up until and during the hit frame. Returning it to melee status (vulnerable frames 1-4, invincible and hits frame 5) would be best, and would prevent him from having an easy escape, although we can't edit invincibility right now, so the best we could do at the moment is leave the 5 frames invinc and simply move the hit frame back a couple frames. At the same time, counter should be given slightly more startup. I believe it starts countering right now on frame 4. Moving that back 2 or 3 frames should reduce his ability to relieve combos without making the move worthless. Other than that, he's already not very good at relieving pressure from below when in the air, so you wouldn't need to touch anything else here.

Then there's the matter of overall punishability. I really can't think of much you could do with this one without completely ruining something. He needs the low lag on fair and dtilt to have a good shield pressure game. His smashes already have very punishable lag. The moves marth uses are typically very safe, and they need to be in order to be functional.

Now for kill moves. Marth's primary kill moves right now are his usmash, fsmash, nair, bair, dair, and uair (and fair for either gimping or stupidly high percent kills). If a kill doesn't come from fsmash or usmash, it comes from edgeguarding. Obviously he has no kill throws or tilts (well, you could probably kill with ftilt or utilt at a stupidly high percent if you really wanted to, but they aren't really "go to" kill moves). The higher angle on his fair makes it worse as a gimping tool, although it does still exist. His bair is fine as is imo - it has a horrid angle for killing, but at high percents it gets the job done. The same goes for nair, except it actually seems like nair is a little bit better, and I can't understand why I don't see more marth players using this move as it is, since at low percents it's a nice combo move, and at high percents, the tip kills. It can be tricky to land sometimes, though, so for now I'd say leave it as is, and we can revisit it if it becomes a problem. Now, as you know, I want to make his game more focused around uthrow combos, which means comboing into uairs, including at (current) kill percents. This is pretty ridiculous considering the move can kill around 100%, so I think the tip would need to be nerfed in kb slightly, so as to not kill so early. I'd rather not touch his usmash or fsmash, as the fsmash is sort of a defining aspect of marth, and his usmash doesn't even kill until 130ish, anyway. I personally think his dsmash is a bit underpowered right now for the risk it entails (hits frame 6 and 21, ends 64, while it has less base and only very slightly more growth than fsmash, and is harder to space on top of that... this thing can be punished by a half-charged smash if you screw up), so I might want to see it get a little extra base to even out the risk/reward (currently, it has a compound growth (damage*growth) of 1360 and a base of 50, while fsmash has a compound growth of 1330 and base of 80, so I'd like to bring it up to 75 base). The uair killing later should be enough of a nerf to his kill game that it would still be an overall nerf.

So this is my list of proposed changes:

+ Increase fair damage (compensate kb)
+ Increase dtilt damage (compensate kb)
+ Reduce uthrow endlag
+ Raise dsmash base slightly
- Slightly more base on utilt
- Lower uair tip growth
- Counter comes out frame 6 or 7 instead of frame 4
- Remove invinc from frames 1-4 of upB

Probably needs a little more work, but it's my preliminary draft for a more offensive marth.

 

[shanus]

Wait, you want more damage on his.. fair?

The whole problem with marth is fair camp all day. More damage encourages it further.

Just because it does more damage, I would if anything be more encouraged to camp than be offense. By strengthening his inside moves (i.e. throws, you encourage more diversity in his moveset which I think is the goal your aiming for.

 

[Magus420]

although we can't edit invincibility right now, so the best we could do at the moment is leave the 5 frames invinc and simply move the hit frame back a couple frames.

Explain please...

 

[timothyung]

If we remove invinc from frames 1-4 of upB, can we get back the original power of it?

 

[Sosuke]

You guys really should make Fair angle higher.

 

[VietGeek]

leafgreen Cape said he found a way to remove Invincibility using the CAM.

 

[shanus]

really? last I heard that didn't work

 

[VietGeek]

Pretty sure it did work considering the convo went like this:

Cape: hey Viet
Cape: it worked
Cape: get f*cked
Viet: =<

 

[leafgreen386]

Wait, you want more damage on his.. fair?

The whole problem with marth is fair camp all day. More damage encourages it further.

Just because it does more damage, I would if anything be more encouraged to camp than be offense. By strengthening his inside moves (i.e. throws, you encourage more diversity in his moveset which I think is the goal your aiming for.

Hm... this is true. I haven't checked the advantage on his current fair yet, I just know that raising damage would improve it. If his frame advantage is significant enough as it is, then the damage is fine. I also thought about messing with his dash attack, so perhaps we could do something with that instead.

Explain please...

Well, we think that invinc frames are hardcoded into the attack, so having invinc on frames 1-5 means that no matter what speed you play the move at, the first 5 frames will have invinc. So if this is true (no one ever bothered to verify, as we haven't messed with invinc in a while >_>), then we could slow down the opening frames of the attack so it would still have invinc on 1-5, but would hit on something like... frame 8 or 9. Although removing the invinc would of course be a much more desirable solution.

If we remove invinc from frames 1-4 of upB, can we get back the original power of it?

That was the plan.

You guys really should make Fair angle higher.

Perhaps. I think we already did that once, though.

leafgreen Cape said he found a way to remove Invincibility using the CAM.

Pretty sure it did work considering the convo went like this:

Cape: hey Viet
Cape: it worked
Cape: get f*cked
Viet: =<

Well... then that's amazing. Although it will probably mean completely removing the invincibility in its entirety, unless the action ID changes midway through the invinc, in which case we still may not be able to remove the exact frames we want to. Still, better than nothing, and worth trying out.

 

[Magus420]

Invincibility has interpolated as usual on Zelda's transform (with some graphical errors on the flashing however) and nayru's too I believe. It doing otherwise doesn't even sound logical to me honestly.

Also, Cape was just f***ing with Viet and GHNeko, lol.

 

[Sasuke3759]

I know I haven't established any credibility here, but I just wanted to share my opinion.

I'd rather lower his damage out put on other moves to make room for more functional moves. .__.

Bair with a lower angle, Fair with better control over opponent, Low angle on Dtilt, increase of KBG on ftilt, faster jab, lower KB on uthrow, increased cool down on dsmash, increase the hitbox size on marth's feet during usmash.

Thoughts guys?

This, imo, is the best change list so far with the bold being the most important.

To make Marth more offensive, the fair change that GHNeko listed is pretty much mandatory, but then if that happens his gimping game goes down pretty hard. Bair right now has too high of an angle, dair I try not to even use anymore, and nair I have gimped with before, but it was at pretty high risk to myself if it back fired and I don't feel safe attempting it often. So because of this, if fair is changed then bair also needs to be changed to gimp better.

Lower KB on uthrow would definitely be great, and obviously make him more combo oriented. Maybe less ending lag as leafgreen386 suggested as well.

As for where he could take nerfs, I know a lot of people aren't going to like this, but I think dancing blade is too potent of a move. It comes out too fast, combos too well, and most of the time gives Marth control of the stage when landed. Especially on smaller stages.

Even without dancing blade Marth has a good punishing game, and I think dancing blade is just too good at what it does.

Sorry, that I can't give angle and knockback changes, I don't really know much about how the number increases/decreases effect things in game.

 

[JCaesar]

Dancing Blade has already been nerfed to hell. I'd rather see him nerfed in other areas if he gets those buffs.

How about a slight nerf to unsweetspotted smashes? It would make spacing more important and make Marth less EZ.

 

[Sasuke3759]

I should have been more specific on what I was talking about. With DB, I think it should be made to come out slower and possibly not combo as reliably at mid/high percents.

Also, the reason I chose DB was because I think it supports a defensive play style. It's almost too easy to space aerials and just wait for the opponent to mess up and nail them with DB. Then they are put in a bad position and there really isn't any risk for Marth in this most of the time.

 

[Yingyay]

I should have been more specific on what I was talking about. With DB, I think it should be made to come out slower and possibly not combo as reliably at mid/high percents.

Also, the reason I chose DB was because I think it supports a defensive play style. It's almost too easy to space aerials and just wait for the opponent to mess up and nail them with DB. Then they are put in a bad position and there really isn't any risk for Marth in this most of the time.

So a combo move shouldnt combo? People need to learn how to deal with things.

 

[Sasuke3759]

So a combo move shouldnt combo? People need to learn how to deal with things.

When did I say DB shouldn't combo?

I said "possibly not combo as reliably at mid/high percents." First off, the possibly means that I'm not 100% about it in the first place and secondly, I specified mid/high percents. That means it would combo earlier.

It comes out on frame 4, autocombos at any percent, and gives control of the stage when landed most of the time.

As is, I think it favors a defensive play style and I think Marth could deal with a nerf like that if he had some of the changes GHNeko mentioned.

If you think that would cripple Marth, then please explain why.

 

[GHNeko]

Dancing Blade has already been nerfed to hell. I'd rather see him nerfed in other areas if he gets those buffs.

How about a slight nerf to unsweetspotted smashes? It would make spacing more important and make Marth less EZ.

Damage reduction on tipper smashes, as a staple of Marth is tippers with amazing KB, not damage. So damage nerfs with KB compensation works for me. :V

 

[Demacrez]

I don't know. Playing as Marth I feel he's missing some power. Maybe:

-Less lag on U-throw
-Less lag on landing of D-air
-MAYBE increase size of sweet spot
-Faster D-tilts
-Faster normal slashes

Everything else seems fine with him though I can't think of anything to take away. He seems kinda fragile if you try and do the "buff one but nerf another" tactic with. I think he just needs small tweaks before we could possibly do that.