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Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

V

VietGeek

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Zodac said:
falling up air, up tilt, SH fair, Sh fair, fair, fair, spike! DEAD get gRaped son@@@
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Doesn't work in Brawl+. Try Melee. Preferably NTSC versions for true spikes.

Zodac said:
your avatar sucks too
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Tsk tsk, uncultured fool, no need to get butthurt because my avatar has delicious glasses and yours does not.

As for your buff suggestion: there is really no way to currently buff Counter as you cannot modify multipliers at the time. I would say switching around the frames Counter is active isn't possible either, not to mention making those frames any better would make the move broken.

Why would you buff Counter in the first place is beyond me. If he's going to get buffed, it should be in areas that would add onto his core game, no buff gimmicks. Way to choose one of the worst moves in the game to buff. >_>
 
Y

Yingyay

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I think his upB needs to be buffed again so it kills again. Its unsafe now and its no fun gimping him anymore.
 
V

VietGeek

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Yingyay said:
I think his upB needs to be buffed again so it kills again. Its unsafe now and its no fun gimping him anymore.
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The WBR is split on how DS should be handled. :\ We all agree it was overnerfed though. I myself would go out to say that Marth's nerfs (sans DMG nerfs) are all rather harsh and should be looked over again. That's me and no one else that I know of though.

One side suggest a constant KB move that if a GTFO, but has no growth so it won't outright kill (I would say it probably won't ever kill even though supporters say "It will kill if your opponent does something stupid.") Think of it as Roy(+)'s Blazer, except horizontal.

Another would like to push for it to be a kill move, perhaps at higher percents compared to the original vB one, but the problem with this is that some members don't find it favorable that a move with 5 frames of invincibility and is known as a string breaker to also outright kill. We'd probably do this by adding back some BKB.

I'm somewhat on the fence, however as a Marth player and a former longtime fan of Brawl, I don't find the issues that prevent Option 2 from happening good enough, mostly because those are rarely problems in B+ (unless you're being EXTRAORDINARILY GREEDY). Also with B+ sporting more shieldstun than Melee, using it as a shield pressure reliever is rare at best...

and how risk/reward work with the move, and how harsher the punishment game is in this game, where I would say risk usually outweighs reward more so than in vB.

But this is me personally ranting. Despite this, I probably touched on the key issues and one side of the argument on Dolphin Slash for any interested spectators.
 
Y

Yingyay

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I agree with all your options.
I like the first option better tho because if you edge-guard Marth wrong you either get stage-spiked or you fly far enough for him to get back on the stage safely.
 
Shaya

Shaya

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I think Dancing Blade could afford to have it's kill ability back, but definitely not it's damage.

But eh, Marth+ to me now is more juggle; let you think I'm about to try hit you during your hitstun but DON'T so you air dodge then hit you with a now well spaced untippered uair to start the **** all over mindgames; and well...

Kill options are icky again... It's definitely annoying that Marth (even though we all agree he's a great character) has to get people up to like 140% to kill them. Whilst MK may suffer something similar (even though he's got nair...) he's got the god recovery to gimp with... Marth doesn't...

I'm more for other characters getting buffs to match up to others in terms of damage output, kill ability and gimp ability (all hopefully balanced with all those parts in mind) rather than make one character worse; yet there's Fox.... oh fox.
 
V

VietGeek

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That dirty dirty Fox.

How I can love such a disgusting character I will never understand...

also for some reason I doubt DB will ever be changed...at least not until some stigma of him goes away.

Even if the WBR agrees to polishing the nerf a bit, we'd probably get a huge backlash by the general community. <_<
 
Wander

Wander

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On a different subject entirely: does Marth+ have any new counter characters from vBrawl? Any new characters he himself counters? I'm trying to pick other mains besides Marth, but I'm no expert in analyzing these sorts of things closely.
 
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_Yes!_

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Fox is amazing 8D

Marth kinda sucks now though. I hope WBR decides to listen to me and spam and stop thinking he's top tier when he's clearly borderline mid/high tier.
 
V

VietGeek

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Cowtipper9487 said:
Fox is amazing 8D

Marth kinda sucks now though. I hope WBR decides to listen to me and spam and stop thinking he's top tier when he's clearly borderline mid/high tier.
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That's right.

Has weak combos, no set-up into kill moves, sucks at killing, horrid recovery...

and...also fails at gimping...because this is no longer a game of mediocre at best recoveries.

PEOPLE HAVE WINGS IN THIS GAME.
 
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Jman77

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Marth is definitely top tier.... how does he suck? He has like one bad matchup. I don't even consider MK a bad matchup anymore.. marth can juggle the **** out of him. I think marth is easily top 5 and probably top 3.
 
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_Yes!_

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Jman77 said:
Marth is definitely top tier.... how does he suck? He has like one bad matchup. I don't even consider MK a bad matchup anymore.. marth can juggle the **** out of him. I think marth is easily top 5 and probably top 3.
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lol see below.

VietGeek said:
That's right.

Has weak combos, no set-up into kill moves, sucks at killing, horrid recovery...

and...also fails at gimping...because this is no longer a game of mediocre at best recoveries.

PEOPLE HAVE WINGS IN THIS GAME.
Click to expand...
 
Wander

Wander

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Marth isn't quite the god he used to be, but he's still pretty awesome. Not nearly as bad as vBrawl Falcon and Jiggly. Here's hoping the next B+ update gives him a few more buffs. He deserves them.
 
GHNeko

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I need to start posting in this thread again. :V

I don't think Marth has that much trouble killing. It's just that you have to be extremely gay in order to build damage up well enough. :V

At least DI isnt that hard to follow up with :V
 
V

VietGeek

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GHNeko said:
Moar like Utilt > Utilt > Uair > Uair :V
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Neko knows where it's at.

But really Marth has a slightly less but same trouble with killing like Toon Link.

At kill percents, nothing combos together correctly, so you basically run around like the Marth/Roy/Young Link of Melee trying to kill.

Just like Toon Link, Marth has one throw set-up into a kill move (DS) but that DI dependent and so if your opponent knows how to DI that set-up, you'll have to swing your sword more.

I need to start picking characters that don't all have the same weaknesses lmao.

Did I mention this makes the Ganon match-up like even...?

Ganon...

wtf.
 
T

timothyung

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Buuuuuut.... Bair>Fair make them off stage for an edge guard

Viet, you mean that match? You should use more projectiles and zair, I think. Maybe jump less and shield more. Try SH double arrows. I don't play Toon Link, just giving suggestions that you can try
 
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_Yes!_

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lol um....Marth had no problems killing in melee. Gimps are easy since recoveries aren't godly in melee, and tipper fsmash could kill at 40 in melee lmao...
 
V

VietGeek

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Cowtipper9487 said:
lol um....Marth had no problems killing in melee. Gimps are easy since recoveries aren't godly in melee, and tipper fsmash could kill at 40 in melee lmao...
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I didn't make myself clear enough.

It was a pretty apparent problem...

that after a certain percent...like after 100% or so, you couldn't link any of Marth's moves to outright kill.

Like vs Ganon on DL64, if he DIs correctly, he'll away have too much leeway to actually EG him after he gets out of your combo range (100+ or so; might be a little higher, idk).

That's why the match-up is considered even nowadays...Ganon can capitalize on almost any percent, while Marth is a beast the first 100 or so %, but if don't kill by then, it starts to become a major hindrance since most of Melee Marth's moveset was made for combos. And a good Ganon usually refuses to die in Melee.

Tipper Fsmash is better in the Brawl series in overall power...and even then, that doesn't quite solve the problem even on people with mediocre recoveries.

Marth was the king of gimps in Melee, but that's gone in Brawl. Now he's left with mediocre killing power since tippers are in no way practical all the time...and each hit dealt that doesn't kill just means a higher percentage and gives you less options to perform that kill.
 
ChaosKnight

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VietGeek

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CK you don't even use the shield button.

Ur not important kk

/back to the bat cave to solve world hunger
 
R

RyuReiatsu

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VietGeek said:
CK you don't even use the shield button.

Ur not important kk

/back to the bat cave to solve world hunger
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Regarding that... I haven't seen many techrolls if not any in these videos, but maybe I'm wrong.
Not trying to offend you, as you've got a great offense Marth. But I recently started doubting Brawl / Brawl+ Pros.

Marth is overrated now, and it's a fact.
There were moments that Sheik could've attacked but didnt. I didn't see much techrolls from him either.
 
ChaosKnight

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maybe most of you guys love to play it slow -.- keep up with the pace of the game dont make it slow >_> .... honestly this game can be fast paced but what ive seen from vids yall still play like Vbrawl all the...


and plz whats a tech roll gonna do ?? like im not gonna follow you ?? .....

honestly i doubt you guys played melee cause most of it there was no shielding just basically comboing ...i doubt you guys know how much pressure marth can put on a character
 
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RyuReiatsu

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Honestly, I'm not sure if you were serious or not anymore. Did I get you mad or what o_o?
I'm not talking about shields, I've played (despite being a total loser on it) and I know that you normally don't shield that much. But Techrolling is something a player needs in his technical game. And I was just wondering if you were really that good or not, as your opponents don't seem to techroll either... Giving room to most vast combos. Then again, I must be wrong.

I watched all your videos against Boss and favorited 'em all. But I'm not really sure if it's really all that possible to pull off such combos or not anymore. I'm simply re-questioning some of your opponents' skills, but I might be wrong.

And well... This?
VietGeek said:
I didn't make myself clear enough.

It was a pretty apparent problem...

that after a certain percent...like after 100% or so, you couldn't link any of Marth's moves to outright kill.

Like vs Ganon on DL64, if he DIs correctly, he'll away have too much leeway to actually EG him after he gets out of your combo range (100+ or so; might be a little higher, idk).

That's why the match-up is considered even nowadays...Ganon can capitalize on almost any percent, while Marth is a beast the first 100 or so %, but if don't kill by then, it starts to become a major hindrance since most of Melee Marth's moveset was made for combos. And a good Ganon usually refuses to die in Melee.

Tipper Fsmash is better in the Brawl series in overall power...and even then, that doesn't quite solve the problem even on people with mediocre recoveries.

Marth was the king of gimps in Melee, but that's gone in Brawl. Now he's left with mediocre killing power since tippers are in no way practical all the time...and each hit dealt that doesn't kill just means a higher percentage and gives you less options to perform that kill.
Click to expand...
Anyways, ignore this if you want to. I think I'm going nowhere with that.
 
GHNeko

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Only thing Marth can reliably combo into at mid to high percents is fair to fair son.

And lol bair to fair. Low percents only. :V

I'd rather just use bair to ledgeguard while on the ledge.

Also, cant Marth go fair > Nair at high percents, regardless of DI?
 
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timothyung

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-Fair changes:

-Hitbox 1: Decreased dmg to 8 from 10, BKB 42 from 40;

-Hitbox 2: Decreased dmg to 11 from 13, BKB 42 from 40; sweetspot angle 50 from 20, flub angle 40 from 20

The angle is already raised for better combo potential.
 
V

VietGeek

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Rofl, in 3.3, the angle made it so teching it was something my little sister could do, and you want that to happen again yet you say "**** techchasing"?

Well, then by all means play Fox plz.
 
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